A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/01/19/a-little-discussed-effect-of-therapy-it-changes-your-personality/

by gfmio • 7 years ago

176 96 7 years ago

digest.bps.org.uk

is associated with significant and long-lasting changes in clients’ personalities, especially reductions in the trait of Neuroticism and increases in Extraversion.

Yes. That's how it should be.

WilliamEdward• 7 years ago

Yes, why is the article implying there is something philosophically bad about a changed personality? Ideally, if someone was a serial killer, it would be objectively good to change their personality wouldn't it?

Changing one's personality doesn't take away 'me-ness' anymore than it reveals your ideal self.

fuzzbuzz• 7 years ago

Imo no personality is ever wrong, except for when the brain/mind is influenced by a disease. I am not saying that the actions of a serial killer will ever be approved, but the notion that one "type" of personality is more good than any other is strictly cultural.

At the same time, I agree with you that it is not bad to change a personality, if it is the owner of that personality that initiate the change.

phkahler• 7 years ago

Well since a common thing therapists do is (covert) social skills training, increased extroversion makes perfect sense. The was recently another one linked here that said long term therapy can increase neuroticism.

My biggest complaint is that most of their studies suffer from survivor bias. They ignore people who drop out or have negative outcomes (there is overlap there).

0xcde4c3db• 7 years ago

My biggest complaint is studies being inadequately placebo-controlled. It's not just that studies often have no control group or a blatantly different control condition (waitlist, pill placebo), it's that there's no consensus on how psychotherapy works. That means there's no agreed-upon approach for sham psychotherapy, and even assertions that it's impossible to do because virtually any therapy-like experience already contains most of the beneficial elements (cf. [1]).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory

yomly2• 7 years ago

What even is "personality" - leaving aside technical and dictionary definitions, if you --the person-- are the sum of your life experiences, can you ever truly not be you?

I pose this because I encounter resistance from people to the notion that they can change themselves, lest they lose some notion of their "self", and personality is often equated with "self" from my experience.

AndrewDucker2• 7 years ago

"can you ever truly not be you"

It's a question of degree. There's a clear line from me yesterday to me today, with a massive amount of similarity. I'm comfortable about my wants and needs and how my life is set up, because the "me"s of the past set things up, and I'm similar enough to them to fit into the niche they worked on.

That personality can change over time - I'm not who I was when I was 20, and I'll be different again when I'm 60. But with a slow set of changes that's easy enough to cope with - and indeed, people generally don't even notice the changes.

But if I woke up tomorrow with a vastly different personality, the change having happened all at once, it would affect all of my relationships, my working situation, my home life, etc. It's wouldn't be a slow transformation from one person to another, it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people.

yomly2• 7 years ago

it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people.

That's a salient observation, but it's a definitely a curious aversion and possibly linked to a similar underlying thought pattern that "growth mindset" vs "fixed mindset" tries to capture:

Notions like "I can become more confident in everything I do" and "I can learn to be better with people" terrified a friend as some kind of type of desire to deceive others with some inauthentic persona that was disingenuous because you had changed your personality

gnode• 7 years ago

can you ever truly not be you?

You can stop being the you that you were, and people often do so.

Personality can change slowly over time as we develop through experience and reflection, or it can change rapidly due to post-traumatic stress, drugs, electroconvulsive therapy, or traumatic brain injuries.

I think the conceptualization of self as immutable is tautological, as we tend to thus discount aspects of personality which we find to be mutable from being considered part of the self.

gwd• 7 years ago

I've always thought that "Neuroticism" was kind of a weird thing to include in "Personality". Sure, it's a long-term behavioral trait that typically doesn't change; but I wouldn't call that a part of who somebody is, any more than (say) an intense fear of spiders is a part of who somebody is.

To say that making someone less "neurotic" changes their personality is about like saying giving someone a prosthetic leg which allows them to walk again changes their personality. It may certainly change the kinds of things they do on a regular basis, but it didn't change the basic concept of self we commonly think of as "personality".

jonahx• 7 years ago

Sure, it's a long-term behavioral trait that typically doesn't change; but I wouldn't call that a part of who somebody is

This seems like an excellent definition of "who somebody is"

any more than (say) an intense fear of spiders is a part of who somebody is.

That, too, is definitely part of who somebody is. It is, eg, exactly the kind of trait used in novels or movies to convey something about a character. And it's something that others would notice and use to describe you in ordinary life.

How is that not part of who you are?

ta1234567890• 7 years ago

Agree with your sentiment. At that point is a philosophical issue though. What exactly do you mean by "you" and "self"?

There's a special network in the brain called the Default Mode Network (DMN), which is responsible for our sense of "self" or ego. The DMN can be shut down and you can feel what it's like to not be "your self".

If you are curious about this, lookup Gary Weber on YouTube. Michael Pollan's latest book (How to change your mind) is also very good.

neom• 7 years ago

There are also some interesting aspects of spirituality in this question. If you are a spiritual person you might look at how the ideas around akhlaq or samsara impact personality, it's an interesting philosophical thought experiment. :)

RivieraKid• 7 years ago

if you --the person-- are the sum of your life experiences

There's also DNA and early childhood development which is hard to change in adulthood.

asdf212• 7 years ago

Formative years are more important.

Basically we imprint, like most mammals, between the ages of 8-12.

specialist4• 7 years ago

I was deeply influenced by Marvin Minsky's Society of the Mind as a kid.

That along with my readings in Zen, Taoism, Buddhism, and the notion of paradoxes, I gave up trying to precisely define who I am and accept that it's contextual.

(Also Shakespeare's "All the world is a stage" and Ministry's "(Every day is) Halloween". Life is performance art. We're all wearing costumes.)

Just try to keep your different personas (son, father, coworker, lover, frat brother, gamer geek) separate in real life.

doboyy• 7 years ago

On the last part, I think a major part of why therapy can be helpful is because you have the choice to not adopt different personas, which makes me wonder that issue is a large source of problems.

I'm not the first to say this, but I feel most like "myself" when nobody is watching.

qzw• 7 years ago

Maybe it’s little discussed because that’s the intended effect? A lot of simple things can create positive changes in aspects of your personality, such as meditation, a consistent exercise routine, enough sleep, etc.

themodelplumber• 7 years ago

Exactly. And think about stressors, too, from a simple weekly to-do list or new years resolution to the maintenance of a basic friendship. These are all going to create additional anxiety and affect the unconscious drive toward personal change.

I used to coach a client who emphasized a lack of neurosis and anxiety as if it was a key selling point for her personality. But she also noted that she was experiencing frequent interventions by family and work colleagues over her behavior, and she complained of having no friends. Within days I found I had to intervene myself! Her communications were truly difficult to experience. In order to "do" social humanity, we need a certain amount of constant adjustment (which causes some stress and anxiety), and it doesn't have to drive us crazy. If it's not there, society quickly finds ways to push back or protect itself.

Pamar2• 7 years ago

I would like to link to a my old post here regarding this very topic (even if the original comment was about something else): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462

specialist4• 7 years ago

That's worth a repost. Jodorowsky, suffering, identity. Just from your summary, that sounds spot on. Added to my reading list. Thanks.

Pamar2• 7 years ago

Unfortunately I cannot confirm the original title: I am 1000km from my library. But Jodorowsky often offers valuable insights.

lkadr• 7 years ago

After years of depression, I'm sure my personality is one of the cause of me still being depressed. And if I went to therapy, I'd expect and want it to change. But change is scary, and I suppose that's why some depressed persons don't want to seek help. There's sometimes comfort in suffering. Another reason is that the not-desesperate me feels shallow and boring. But there's probably a hopeful me that's not. I haven't found it yet, it requires more effort.

calewis5• 7 years ago

As someone who suffers from depression and has gone to therapy for over 5 years (I am also on medication), please try and force yourself to go.

It will most likely change your life for the better, if not, what have you wasted? A bit of money and a few hours of your time? It could make you better at dealing with your depression and, as a consequence, make you feel happier.

You might need to try a few different therapists until you find one you like, and it's not a quick fix either. Think of it like getting (physically) fit, you need to keep at it - maybe for years. You might not also get better in a linear curve, it's up and down, you just have to stick with it.

Therapy has helped me to know myself better, understand why I do what I do and feel the way I do, and, as cheesy as it sounds; learn to accept my limitations. It's changed my life and the life of many of my friends.

You deserve to be happy, everyone does.

Please try it - if it doesn't I will buy you a beer/coffee.

charleyramm• 7 years ago

Do you think it was necessary to go through this process with a therapist, or could a less expensive alternative have had the same effect?

yboris• 7 years ago

Thank you for sharing. Sincerely curious what you mean by "A bit of money". I'm lucky that I didn't have to have therapy. My guess is unless your insurance/job covers mental health, it's at least $50/hour (closer to $100 or $150 if in a major city). Surely not much for the possible benefits (and on a developer salary), but I'm wondering how expensive such services are.

sjg0072• 7 years ago

One thing that may help is to label your depression as it's own independent thing. Something that exists outside of your core self. Even give it a name, say Dave. Then when you are feeling depressed say, hey that's just Dave, why is Dave feeling this way? Is there another perspective that Dave isn't seeing etc...

onemoresoop• 7 years ago

This mind trick works for some and at its core it's the same idea of compartmentalizing. There are different ways to get to compartmentalizing and yes, it does help clear the mind, reduce anxiety/mind chatter by grouping and labeling things/thoughts somehow (by personal choice) such that when something arises to the conscious mind it can be located, acknowledged and dealt with at a later time if needed.

Torwald• 7 years ago

Because I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the other comments: nutrition plays a role in this.

I do have heard several times about people fighting depression, who bettered their lot by improving their diet. Granted, these are just anecdotes, but, if you are suffering from depression you might want to investigate that angle.

nyxtom• 7 years ago

As someone that has gone to therapy for several years I can tell you that eventually you get to a place where you need more than talking - action. People tend to need some sort of organizational philosophy to go with their view of life along with habits that comfort them in times of mental disarray. You are not ever going to be able to avoid suffering, times of boredom, or anything else, but you also don't have to be stuck. This is going to sound cliche, but talk is cheap. Practicing what you are discovering about yourself into habitual evidence is what becomes important as you broaden your self-awareness and dig yourself out of the depressive holes in life. In the words of Jocko, discipline = freedom. I've found that a combination of therapy and seeking out actionable things I can do to be more disciplined has been fundamental in getting beyond the ego of the self and out into the world.

ljm• 7 years ago

There's nothing about 'comfort zone' that suggests it's always a happy place. It's just a familiar one. It's so easy to become accustomed to pain or suffering that it becomes scary to imagine how things might be different, even if that change is positive.

I would recommend giving therapy a shot, but I would recommend even strongly that you find the therapist who is right for you. It won't always be the first one you meet, or even the most recommended one. It's a relationship just like any other so it requires trust.

I've been going through this for 6 years and if I had to go back and decide differently, I'd travel this same path again. Pitfalls and all.

rconti2• 7 years ago

I know people who have done LSD and said it was one of the most life-changing things they ever did.

My first thought is, holy hell. I'm pretty happy. I don't want to "find out" I have the wrong career/partner/residence/etc. So, I hear ya.

specialist4• 7 years ago

I've changed my personality a few times. Twice purposefully, that I know of.

First time, having exhausted all other ideas for improvement, I decided to fake being happy, using ridiculously positive words for every situation. "How are you today?" "Phenomenal!" While initially it was kinda sarcastic, at some point it became sincere. Roughly three years later, I woke up one day said "Phenomenal!" to myself, and was surprised that I meant it. The change was so slow, subtle, I didn't sense the transition.

Years later, I found the book How You Talk Changes How You Think. So apparently I'm not the only person with this experience. Also, I had read up about social cognition (swarm intelligence), how we learn from each other. At the time, there was some research showing that we individuals conform and change our minds without realizing it or any memory of it. (Scary!)

Second time, I ran for public office. I usually play to win, regardless of the odds. So I decided to become like the winners. I changed my outward personality. How I stand, smile, eye contact, etc. I stopped swearing (vulgarity). I learned to how to do small talk, vague noncommitmental positive agreement. (eg "Wow, that's a great idea, tell me more.", per Guy Kawasaki per Jean-Louis Gassée). I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert.

I've also changed personalty a few times unwillingly.

I was proscribed high dosage prednisone & cyclosporine for years. They made me insane. Suicidal. Mania. Super erratic. It took me years to "detox", become psychologically normal.

I had a very rough childhood. I remember being loving and affectionate as a toddler. But I became angry, distrustful and distant.

So. All these wild swings of personality. I honestly don't know who am I. When I try to describe myself (dating profiles), I can only describe how I think I behave, at this time. Is that accurate? Stable? No idea. I also don't know how much aging and experience factor in.

And I don't know where the lines are between personality, character, and daily behavior.

If I could travel back in time, I'd love to be able to administer myself personality assessments over time, maybe chart the changes.

petra• 7 years ago

> I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert.

That's interesting. Could you please share more ?

specialist4• 7 years ago

I'm still trying to understand it myself.

There's definitely the bits about socializing being taxing (introvert) or energizing (extrovert). Maybe that's just aging and slowing down.

But a huge component is becoming very transactional, jealously guarding my time and attention (both rapidly diminishing resources). Having become best friends with 100s of people and then becoming yesterday's news after my defeat, my calculus changed. What does this person want? Is this interaction worth my time?

At the same time, I've become very nice and polite. I strive to reduce my social footprint, never be the problem customer, be ever patient, be unremarkable. And maybe provide some cheer, or positivity, or respite, to most everyone I meet. But now it's anonymous. I almost never share my name. I hope the person quickly forgets me.

(Note: In person. My online persona is still a troll, but I'm trying to change.)

The aspect I'm still chewing on is "social availability". Like openness vs aloofness. It's a weird thing. I used to be the most approachable person. Spontaneous conversations. People sharing the weirdest most intimate stuff about themselves. Always being asked for directions by strangers. Having children and dogs crawl all over me. It was unsolicited and unavoidable.

Now I can turn that off.

You may have experienced the difference while traveling vs commuting to work. Visiting somewhere new, everything's stimulating, you're trying to take it all it, you have certain openness, you recognize the openness in others, maybe you're more flirtatious. But during your commute, routine settles in, you develop tunnel vision, avoid eye contact, face goes slack / neutral / hard, become avoidant so the panhandlers and other people striving to get your attention just become part of the background noise.

I'm also trying to be a better friend to my besties. Concentrated friendship equity vs spread out.

Lastly, things change. Having cared for my grandparents and now parents, watching how they've pulled themselves in, it's a sad thing to survive all your contemporaries. Whoever said "it's better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all" was full of shit.

tokai• 7 years ago

Personality is not that stable to begin with.[0]

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/

orthecreedence• 7 years ago

Right, even before I start therapy, my personality changed all the time. I'd say the only constant is how I experience things. Everything else seems to be fluid.

FailMore• 7 years ago

I had eight years of therapy and it totally transformed my life, it was rather odd but it was only when my therapist and I started using dreams in non-traditional way (as set out here https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz) that things started to rapidly improve.

RickS• 7 years ago

This was a really fascinating paper! The first part feels intuitively true – that dreams are instructional surfacings of situational classes that require attention. The bit about PTSD dreams being "mercy of environment" rather than having situational autonomy was really interesting. It's a shame the paper cuts off right there, but I'm glad they at least dropped the teaser, it's a thread I'm going to pull. If you have any more recommended reading on this, I'd love to check it out / talk about this. Email's in profile.

If you want to dig more into the "anxiety/avoidance mental responses are fundamentally biological" aspect: I and others on HN recommend "The Body Keeps The Score".

llamataboot• 7 years ago

This is true. In my experience you are literally learning how to grow "new selves".

DoreenMichele2• 7 years ago

The research also leaves unanswered a big question for the future: just how is psychotherapy enacting these personality trait changes?

A large part of "personality" is about social interaction. If you have always been treated terribly, you won't know how to interact in a not terrible fashion, even if you run into people who aren't going to treat you terribly.

Therapy can help you see that you have patterns of behavior shaped by negative social experiences and those patterns of behavior basically presume that everyone will behave in a particular way towards you and that way is not a nice way to behave. It can help you see that how you behave helps keep the negative social climate alive in your life and you have the power to behave differently going forward.

It can help you sort out "Some people will do bad things to me and some won't. It's okay to make judgement calls about how to interact with different social situations for my own benefit." instead of going with some default learned behavior that is no longer serving you well.

Metaphorically, it's a little like growing up in a very bad neighborhood where everyone carries a gun. Carrying a gun and being quick to show it to let people know you aren't going to be an easy victim is a matter of course. It's the only way to survive.

Then you move to a nicer neighborhood where no one owns a gun. You continue flashing your gun anytime you feel threatened by anything to let people know you aren't an easy mark.

They react negatively to you signaling that you are prepared to defend yourself with deadly force if necessary. In their world, only crazy people routinely talk about being prepared to use deadly force. That's simply not how things get settled in their world.

You go to a therapist and he tells you "So, have you noticed that you left the neighborhood you grew up in and no one around you even carries a gun? Have you thought about trying to find some means to enforce your personal boundaries without pointing a gun at everyone you meet? Why don't you try that and see if people react different to you."

So you go to a party and don't pull out your gun. And people are weirdly nice to you, nicer than they have ever been.

And it's food for thought and you discuss the incident with your therapist the next time you see them. Your entire social life improves and you start to trust that maybe your therapist actually has good ideas and they aren't just trying to convince you to lay down your arms just to make it easier to take advantage of you, even though that's the standard you grew up with.

dannyism• 7 years ago

If traits like "neuroticism", which would result from the very mental illnesses that psychotherapy promises to address, constitute personality, isn't it obvious that psychotherapy should change it? Why is anyone acting surprised?

camelNotation• 7 years ago

Neuroticism in the context of personality is not necessarily the same as having a mental illness or being "neurotic." There is some crossover between the behavior of someone we would describe as "neurotic" and someone with "high neuroticism" on the big five, but as a matter of personality, high neuroticism simply means that you worry more and tend to see things in a more negative, realistic way.

This carries obvious advantages in certain contexts as long as it is tempered and doesn't get out of hand. It has lots of disadvantages too, especially in the job market, but all personality traits have a downside if you score too highly. If you are too open, you can fail to weigh and measure risks properly. If you are too agreeable, people will walk all over you. If you are too extroverted, it can create dependency issues and alienation. If you are too conscientious, you can end up so consumed by the minutiae of life that you miss important, big picture ideas.

Nav_Panel• 7 years ago

The idea of therapy and its effects on personality is actually something discussed in psychoanalytic literature (noting that psychoanalysis !== "therapy" in most cases), often framed as an ethical question, "when is it permissible to perform psychoanalysis?" Some quotes from a book on Lacan:

what exactly does ‘curing’ mean? Is it simply the disappearance of a symptom, or does one aim to change the underlying personality structure that produced it and in which it is inscribed? Is this at all achievable, and if it is, is it desirable? If it is neither achievable nor desirable, then where should curing stop – at what boundary line? And finally, is it always a good thing even to begin the process, when you don’t know where to end it or whether you will be leaving behind a damaged and less effective Subject?
By the early 1960s, Lacan felt that forcing people to confront the truth about themselves, the meaning of their symptoms and the hitherto repressed elements in their unconscious, had consequences too serious to be undertaken with anything less than the greatest caution.
I shall finish with an example of a patient who, at the end of her treatment, seemed quite aware of the loss she would suffer as a result of being cured. The young woman, who had been severely anorexic, talked about a dream during one of her last sessions. In it, she had on a necklace on which there was a great, pointed spike or barb. The curious thing was that this necklace was under her skin, within her body, and she wanted to remove it – to get it out of her. She somehow managed to tug it out, but as the spike came out of her body, it left a gaping hole, and she was bleeding. The analyst said in agreement with her unconscious knowledge: ‘Yes, you will be left with a hole. And you will be bleeding.’ The patient understood immediately and perfectly the meaning of both: that the giving up of her symptom would indeed leave a hole in the structure of her Subject, and she would face the new reality of menstrual bleeding. If this illustration leaves one with many questions, that is as Lacan would have wished.

aszantu2• 7 years ago

my depression went away after changing my diet. a ton of neurotransmitters are made in the colon and intestines. Don't stop looking for things that might improve the condition, you will know when you find something that works.

asdf212• 7 years ago

What changes did you make?

aszantu2• 7 years ago

Went keto, depression went away within a week. Switch to carnivore for financial reasons, anxiety went away.

ineedasername• 7 years ago

Isn't this the expected result? Some aspect of your behavior or thought process (key components of your personality) are in some way running counter to your happiness and/or ability to function in some way. When therapy is effective, that is a de facto change to personality.

throwaway55554• 7 years ago

Isn't this the point? If I suffered trauma as a child, my amygdala is over developed and I am in constant fight, flight or freeze. Therapy would give me tools to deal with this and thus, change my personality.

jl2718• 7 years ago

Causal link not established. Placebo not tested.

Compare therapy against random assignment to six weeks of baking class. Then get back to me.

michaelkeenan• 7 years ago

The review includes 35 experimental studies with control groups. See table 3: "Experimental Personality Change Effect Size Estimates Comparing Treatment to Control".

WhitneyLand• 7 years ago

Direct brain d]stimulation - Is there a tldr on therapies and electrically stimulate the brain?

I know there were interesting clues, but is there a consensus on what it's prospects look like as of 6/2019?

Grustaf• 7 years ago

I thought that was the purpose of therapy

A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

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