Neuroactive potential of human gut microbiota in quality of life and depression

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-018-0337-x.epdf?referrer_access_token=wrPsThpekvlDIFVfG5LcxNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0Pk-saWPJmzGA3H2wMSXmwWlLgoMIU-QgMdenquoZAoe6NETxnfNGaTyvKBf8sDab0d4o3IEWSDwPMHnxuzB02yxHpGxsrb_BAMi8S1xd9sKTII8ETVXrRjzyawDGyhVDxF3e1s_r1_lufiujI6-hOfoR0i-ws8EVQx2UqY7VLGaMBRs1N-olOmFv8l7zf3HcJYx3fvAbSktPcSgGBlaxr63WkPzfDrnnSyk1Lfje1HUw%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.genengnews.com

by nyxtom • 7 years ago

135 61 7 years ago

nature.com

dpflan• 7 years ago

Does anyone know about the role oral microbiome plays here?

harmful_stereo• 7 years ago

Kissing the wrong person could be a gateway to depression. I wonder how long it might be before one could sue for damage to their microbiome.

cheeko1234• 7 years ago

Wow, didn't think of that. I wonder if that's a possibility.

As a clueless person, I'd think the quantity and stomach acids would make it a negligible risk but worth studying.

rlucas• 7 years ago

By that logic -- kissing a depressed person could just as well be a cure for their depression. Cheer up! (Pucker up?)

afarrell• 7 years ago

I feel like that would be easier to study because cheek-swabs are easier than colon-swabs.

johnchristopher• 7 years ago

So.. for the non biochem crowd.. what should I eat to get the kind of bacteria that helps with depression ?

throwaway-12832• 7 years ago

One consistent thing I've heard never to consume because it destroys gut bacteria is diet soda.

dwringer• 7 years ago

I have seen that idea popularized here on HN for sure - it seems almost every physical or mental health and diet related post gets a comment about "the gut microbiome" which either mentions or is replied to by a comment that claims diet soda "destroys" it. The frequency with which this is mentioned is definitely pretty high, but I've not come across any links to studies or further reading on the idea.

EDIT: Here is what I believe to be a source of many such claims, a 2014 study suggesting that artificial sweeteners can alter gut flora in mice to lead them to being glucose intolerant: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4615743/

I'd be interested if there's anything more recent or conclusive about this - plenty of sensationalistic articles seem to be out there either extrapolating from or challenging this study, but I'm not able to deduce anything further.

_Schizotypy• 7 years ago

I'd be interesting in reading some papers on this if anyone has them

Mirioron4• 7 years ago

Is it because diet soda doesn't provide nutrition to gut bacteria, but still takes up the space actual nutrition could have been in, and thus the gut bacteria don't get access to as much nutrition?

Edit: poor wording above. I meant to ask whether the artificial sweeteners could take the place of nutrition for the gut bacteria but not actually provide enough nutrition.

theshrike793• 7 years ago

Can confirm. The artificial sweeteners in Pepsi MAX make my farts smell goddamn awful.

Coke Zero doesn't do that, but I still try to stay away from diet sodas.

CuriousSkeptic• 7 years ago

The SMILES trial ( http://foodandmoodcentre.com.au/media/smiles-trial/ ) had good resultat with their diet.

But in general many different kinds of plant based foods to promote biodiversity. According to ( https://youtu.be/-LUuqxQSaFQ )

thaumasiotes3• 7 years ago

Poop from somebody who isn't depressed.

That sounds like I'm making it up, but unfortunately I'm not.

fernly• 7 years ago

Yup. It's called a fecal microbial transplant (FMT) and it works for several problems, notably C-diff infection. (Unfortunately it isn't the first-line treatment for that nasty bug, it is usually preceded by weeks of antibiotics and only used when they fail. Source: personal experience.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridioides_difficile_(bact...

bsanr• 7 years ago

Also: unfortunately, it's hard to get your hands on.

fromthestart• 7 years ago

I worry that there may be currently unknown compatibility issues between donors and recipients, and that a recipient could be worse off after the wrong donation.

justanotherjoe4• 7 years ago

My God... Alex Jones is going to have a field day... "they force our kid to eat poo poo!"

cageface3• 7 years ago

I noticed a huge lift in my mood when I switched to a completely plant based diet but if that’s too radical for you I think you can get a lot of the benefits by just massively increasing the amount of fresh fruits and vegetables you eat and sticking to whole, unprocessed carbs. Adding some fermented foods like natto or kimchi should help too.

theshrike793• 7 years ago

I just stopped eating meat that had 4 legs at one point. (Beef, Pork, game meats)

Digestion issues didn't go away completely, but everything is noticeably better now.

ptah2• 7 years ago

going plant based improved my health dramatically too. i used to think i was carnivorous. turns out i was just speeding up aging

Jedi72• 7 years ago

Never seen a depressed person who had a full slice of cheesecake in front of them ;)

therein• 7 years ago

I bet at least one pharmaceutical giant is working on an extended-release cheesecake.

jingalings• 7 years ago

I get your jest, but as someone who struggles with depression and uses food as a coping mechanism, this is sadly not the case. My personal experiences also make me acutely aware of others in food courts who really aren’t enjoying the food they are consuming.

scarecrowbob3• 7 years ago

What follows is purely anecdotal and just my experience, but protracted fasting had obvious changes on my general mental health.

My experiences were a month of 3 day water fasts followed by a meal (whole foods like plants and steak), and since then (this was 2 years ago) I do a 3 day fast every 1-2 months or so.

I also was able to stop craving sugars (sodas/ candy, etc) after that first long fast.

I have nothing conclusive, but I suspect that the changes in my mental health and dietary cravings have to do with killing off chunks of my microbiome in the first long fast. Could just be either placebo or other life changes (I turned 40, my wife had left me a month before, and I gave up drinking for 6 months during and after the fast).

So your milage may vary, but if your question is sincere, it might be easier to modify a biome by trimming it back rather than adding to it.

I'd be super stoked to have contradictory / corroborating evidence, though.

theshrike793• 7 years ago

Another voice for fasting from here too.

I do 16:8 intermittent fasting and my energy levels are a lot better. Basically I just eat my last meal around 19:00 and skip breakfast. Lunch around 11:00.

I may have a sugar free energy drink in the morning to pick me up (my poor stomach doesn't approve coffee any more, too much of it in my younger days... =) )

johnfn• 7 years ago

Your life left you a month before and you think that it wasn’t that but the fasting that affected your mental health?

justanotherjoe4• 7 years ago

wait, are you saying that you're general mental health changed for the better, or for the worse? I think you forgot to mention that.

ptah2• 7 years ago

giving up alcohol is doing wonders for me too

diyseguy• 7 years ago

How soon till the happiness pro-biotics are available for purchase?

nyxtom• 7 years ago

I wouldn’t be surprised to see anti-anxiety anti-depressive type yogurt being made.

Vomzor• 7 years ago

https://innovixlabs.com/products/mood-probiotic

oregontechninja• 7 years ago

Purely anecdotal but, I've been expirmenting drinking and making kefir and fermented veggies (mostly spinach). After a few days, my digestive system was the most regular it's ever been. I feel happier too but correlation vs causation and what not.

comicjk• 7 years ago

If you're eating a lot of spinach, you could just be experiencing the well-known effects of dietary fiber.

garraeth• 7 years ago

True, and people are investigating new ideas about dietary fiber thinking that perhaps it's not just for "bulk" and helping keep things "regular": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29902436

"In this review, we will focus on dietary fibers, which interact directly with gut microbes and lead to the production of key metabolites such as short-chain fatty acids, and discuss how dietary fiber impacts gut microbial ecology, host physiology, and health."

clydethefrog• 7 years ago

Interesting, I thought spinach was a hard vegetable to ferment because it gets soft and sloppy quickly. Could you share a recipe?

cageface3• 7 years ago

Spinach is great but don’t overdo it. The high oxalate content can cause problems for some people. Good to get a variety of different greens, of course including spinach.

snarfy• 7 years ago

This video from the Royal Institute has a lot of good info on the microbiome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LUuqxQSaFQ

justanotherjoe4• 7 years ago

Anyone knows if probiotics like yakult may help?

et-al• 7 years ago

Get yourself some kefir or ayran instead. Yakault is a "pro-biotic" only in the sense that it provides sugar to the bacteria in your body.

rygxqpbsngav• 7 years ago

Sauerkraut helped me get better. I included it in my dinner salads. Careful with store bought fermented foods though which uses vinegar.

Neuroactive potential of human gut microbiota in quality of life and depression

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