Ask Career HN: Go back to employer or start fresh?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1855003

by thesisist • 16 years ago

11 14 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Dear Hackernews, I need some career advice from people that would know: After High School I interned at a small startup, at that time it was just me and the three founders. About a year later I went to College, but continued to do work for them, mostly dumb copy&paste HTML stuff, rarely more complex and time sensitive design work.

Fast forward six years: I am about to finish my M.Sc., I am still with the company (doing the same work at the same low rate, gotta pay the rent), the company now has more than 20 employees and was bought for a considerable amount by one of the largest media companies of the country/world. The founders are leaving the company (and while the company will stay independent, suits will be taking over) and approached me about a "frontend and usability" position at the company on pretty short notice: They liked how versatile and loyal I was, how I know the company, know the processes, etc

I was flattered, but also alarm bells went off: It's great to be offered a job without even applying for one, however, I am afraid that if I go back, I will continue doing the same stupid work I have done before, even though I now have Masters Degree and shifted my focus considerably (from design to development, which was advice from one of the founders, and I am really thankful for that). The company will definitely undergo some restructuring with interesting opportunities (and I think it will be interesting to experience a company transitioning from a small startup to something bigger), however there are enough people at the company that know I was the "HTML guy".

I was always quite busy with school so in terms of internships, my CV is lacking (just a couple of side-projects and freelance jobs). On the one hand, it has always been a dream of mine to go startup hopping and learn from many different experiences, but I am afraid that I won't even be considered for something remotely interesting and will become and stay unemployed. On the other hand is my current employer (with a very large parent company) offering a position that has the potential to open many doors (maybe some I would never get to otherwise) and would be a big name on my CV, potentially making getting internships later easier.

I am wondering what to do: Should I ask for an rather high salary to see if they really consider me an asset to the company? How can I make sure I will not be treated as an intern anymore? What looks better on a CV, many Startups or one large corporation? What would you do if you were 26 and broke? Any advice is truly appreciated. Thanks.

aeontech• 16 years ago

Look at it this way: what are you learning at this job? Chances are, having a six year history of being an intern there (which is, btw, an extremely long time to be an intern in my opinion), just getting a different title will not make people treat you any different than they have up to now. Did they offer you a single raise in six years? If not, they don't see any value in you that is specific to you, rather, you are easily replaceable. We've had interns at companies I worked for before, and they all either moved on after six months to a year, or got hired full time. Not a single one has stayed an intern for six years.

I'd strongly suggest looking for new positions for multiple reasons.

1. You will have a clean slate and can grow as fast as you want, without the history of being the eternal intern.

2. You will get experience interviewing and talking to different kinds of companies and teams.

3. You will almost certainly get paid considerably more than you are now.

4. You will almost certainly find a position doing work that is more interesting/rewarding than dumb copy and paste grunt work.

That being said, if you like the company, like the team, and/or like the work, definitely talk to them first. Ask for a competitive salary (do some research of what the position you are being hired for normally pays). Ask what kind of benefits they offer. If they really want you to stay on, they should have no problem offering you a decent rate.

I wouldn't worry about staying unemployed. Engineers tend to take their skills for granted and not realize how valuable they actually are. You can always find freelance work if you work on it, and despite the economy, the hiring in IT sector is not slowing down as far as I can see. If you are bright and good at what you do, many companies will even pay for relocation if you are not local.

You are young and just finishing college, this is the best time to take these kinds of risks. You'll have a much harder time deciding to join a startup or quitting an unsatisfying job if you have a family to support.

Companies that truly value you, will want you to be engaged and fascinated by the work you're doing - that is how you get the best work from the engineers and they know it. Companies that don't understand that, end up with teams of unhappy engineers. In some companies, you can transfer to a different team, work on new projects, and find new interests - other companies have a set hole for you to fill, and if you are not happy being a cog, you are stuck.

In the end, ask yourself whether you feel like you are growing and learning anything from the work you are doing and the team you are working with. If you are stagnating, it's time to either change your position in the company if they are simply not utilizing your potential, or look for a different company if they have no work for you that challenges you.

whatevers2009• 16 years ago

1. Finding a job in this economy is difficult. If you're on the verge of graduating, find something to back up before you up and walk even if that was a consideration.

2. Always negotiate. Explain that when you started, you just finished high school. Now, years later with a lot more experience and a better understanding and nearly with a degree under your belt, you'd like to negotiate for pay. It isn't unreasonable to ask. Base on their response, you can decide what to do from there.

3. I think in the long run, depending on how the above two scenario plays out, you should be bright enough to play with the options you're given. But as you've said, you're broke, out of school soon, will probably go into repayment for student loans if you took any, and unless you got something else lined up, I wouldn't purposely fudge this and think of it as either or. Negotiate and talk to them. Figure out your choice after you've figured out what your options are.

hallmark• 16 years ago

Just because there is high unemployment nationwide, don't assume that getting a software development job will be historically difficult. After long hiring freezes, tech companies - more specifically, the team leaders who end up interviewing you - are dying to hire new employees to fulfill pent up demand in their own teams. The preference is for experienced candidates, but smart new grads are also welcome. This is from my experience in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I'll second the previous recommendations to go out and interview with other companies. You didn't include many specifics, but I'll assume your master's degree is in Computer Science and that you are smart. If you don't interview well, treat each real interview as practice.

Your relatives may warn you about the economy and send you newspaper clippings showing all the unemployment. I have a hard time convincing my own family, but software development jobs are different.

bwh2• 16 years ago

Go somewhere else. You need to challenge yourself. It sounds like you know this and have already decided, but you just want social verification. Here it is.

hedgehog• 16 years ago

Bottom line is how you can help them and they can help you. Figure out what projects you can work on that will be meaningful to the company. Then figure out what you think a fair salary is. As an aside, I think it is usually better to be a little underpaid than overpaid because it gives you better leverage and flexibility in choosing your work. Anyway, if you can come to agreement go for it. Control your expenses (don't buy a new car!) and in a year if it's not working out you can move on graciously with cash in the bank.

phamilton• 16 years ago

I worked for a summer at a pool plastering company in Los Angeles. While the work was mindless and painful (LA can be hot!), there were actually a few important things I learned.

We often finished pools in Beverly Hills. One job we did was a "grout demo". The deck of their pool was tiled rock and they just didn't like the grout. It "wasn't sparkly enough" apparently. We didn't want to do such a pointless job that would take so much time. So the owner of the company bid on the job. He gave them a figure that was so ridiculously high that he wouldn't mind doing something that pointless. They agreed (crazy people live in Beverly Hills).

Moral of the Story: Find your price. Figure out how much they would have to pay you to get you to do the same thing you've always done, regardless of how much value you feel that adds to the company. If they balk at that price, fine. You wouldn't want to work for less than that anyway. If they take it... good, you are valued.

timcederman• 16 years ago

26 and with a PhD, I asked for a competitive salary at a startup and got it. You should do the same.

shareme• 16 years ago

I would at least diplomatically present your concerns about the offer as it may be they see it as 'stepping stone' to the actual position they see you at in the future within the company and that you want, namely development.

SabrinaDent• 16 years ago

It sounds like you're making decisions without data. You don't seem to have a solid job description, reporting chain or salary ballpark. Were it me, I would ask for those things so you could get a clear picture of what you're actually deciding on and the parameters of the position.

Having said that, there's the old sawhorse where employed people are always more desirable candidates, so the option to take the job to pay the bills while looking for other work may be a good one for you.

lsc• 16 years ago

eh, ask for the higher salary, and take it, unless you have a better offer. If the job ends up sucking, well, just look for a new one. Finding a job is vastly easier when you have a job.

brudgers• 16 years ago

> "I was flattered, but also alarm bells went off: It's great to be offered a job without even applying for one, however, I am afraid that if I go back, I will continue doing the same stupid work I have done before, even though I now have Masters Degree and shifted my focus considerably"

>"The founders are leaving the company"

Given the founders exit, it is much less likely that your growth will go unrecognized.

Good candidates are offered jobs without applying everyday.

Talking with the suits about a new role would be the place to start.

stoney• 16 years ago

You don't mention any concrete alternatives in your post (i.e. other job offers or project ideas). Assuming that you don't have anything else lined up then I would take the job - you can always quit if the work pans out to not be what you wanted or if they treat you like an intern. Worst case just use it as a stop-gap to earn some cash and buy some time.

Quitting a job too soon after taking it can look bad on your CV, but not always. In your case you've kind of been employed by them for a while, so I don't think you need to worry about CV damage there.

What looks good on your CV really depends on who is looking at your CV. I don't think corporation vs start up makes much difference. A broad range of experience looks good, loyalty looks good. You can give the appearance of both whichever way you go.

As for asking for a higher salary... decide what you think you're worth, decide how much you want the job, guess what you think they'll pay, then adjust your request accordingly. If you really want the job then be a bit conservative, if you're not that bothered either way, and it sounds like you're not, then aim high.

djb_hackernews• 16 years ago

So you worked at a growing company for 6 years and never asked for or was given greater responsibility or significant pay raises? It sounds to me like the core of the problem here is you don't know how to stand up for yourself.

Intern or not, you blew a great opportunity.

gregpilling• 16 years ago

I would suggest asking for a market rate salary worthy of the position and degree that you recently received. If they agree, then fine. If they don't then move on. In 2006 I had a mechanical engineering intern that worked for my company (manufacturing) about 10 hours a week. Once he graduated, he came to me for advice about which jobs he should apply for. At that point I had to choose between paying market rate or losing a guy that had the right talents and experience, who was already up-to-speed with our company processes.

I decided to keep him, and doubled his pay to do it. He wasn't twice as good as he was the day before, but we were at the point where company growth demanded a full-time engineering presence and he was the best choice for the job. My other alternatives would have been to spend a lot of time recruiting to find another engineer that would need to be integrated into the company and paid market rate anyway. Perhaps I was underpaying him as an intern, but the workload he was given was not demanding and we were exceptionally flexible with his hours and schedule. We also financially supported his Formula SAE team at the University. He ended up staying for three years and then going back to school to get a PhD.

As for your concern about being treated as an intern, don't worry. If they increase your pay they will certainly increase your workload and responsibility. After all, they are now paying for it. With founders leaving the company you could end up one of the most senior people in that division.

Ask Career HN: Go back to employer or start fresh?

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