Developments in tech in Toronto over the past seven years

https://blog.brainstation.io/how-toronto-became-a-global-tech-leader-in-7-years/

by salbowski • 8 years ago

110 106 8 years ago

blog.brainstation.io

Apocryphon3• 8 years ago

Is this truly significant, or is it spin to sell a city? Not to be harsh, but I've read the accounts of Canadian expats on the comparatively low wages back home. Not SF low, but low even compared to other cities in the U.S.

devoply• 8 years ago

In Canada, salaries for tech seem to normally max out around 100k for developers (with exceptions for working for big US/multinational companies like Amazon, MSFT, etc.). Even 80k is pretty common for senior developers... In Canadian dollars. So around 80k USD is max a Canadian developer can expect to make other than a few unusual cases thrown in there which might go as high as 130k CAD so around 100k USD is a stellar Canadian development salary. If you compare this to how H1B workers are paid in the US, it's around those sorts of rates. I don't see it improving any time soon because the revenue that this work generates is not 10x multiples like you see in the US. Canada does not have the VC culture to support a tech culture that produces 100s of millions to billions in returns. If US companies come looking for remote workers they are looking to pay Canadian rates and save money that way.

Oppertunity123• 8 years ago

Maybe for smaller companies, but msft, Amazon, tableau in Canada all pay more than that.

Kpourdeilami2• 8 years ago

$100k CAD is not really the max in Canada. That’s how much small startups are paying to hire developers with around 2 years of experience in Kitchener-Waterloo that tends to be cheaper than Toronto

tpurves• 8 years ago

This is also why, as a founder, it's very attractive to raise US/global money but build a team in Canada. For developers for your dollar, diversity of talent, high quality education, healthcare, proximity to the US + ease of travel and immegration from the rest of the world, Canada is a great place these days to start a dev team. It's just so much harder now to build, grow and retain a dev team in SV anymore.

tlear• 8 years ago

100k? maybe 5-6 years ago, it is not the case anymore at all. I dont what the max is but 140-150 is no that unusual(for senior people obviously)

kevintb• 8 years ago

100k? You’re either massively underpaid or badly misinformed, or both. Several friends living in Toronto make 120k+ and they’re certainly not senior or management. (All in their twenties). And that’s only for homegrown startups - Amazon, etc pay very respectable salaries, especially when you factor the lower cost of living compared to the Bay Area.

abledon• 8 years ago

How easy is it for a Canadian to set up the legalities of doing remote in the trump era ? I have an impression it’s only the big fish (fang etc) who with their legions of lawyers can mow a path down for remotes to begin working smoothly (& legally)

acchow8• 8 years ago

Toronto has the best spin department in the world. I never stop seeing listicles with Toronto in the top 3, reading about how great it is a place to live and work, and how it's become a leader in innovation/tech/art/music/film/finance.

The endless fluff pieces are a bit tiresome.

Apocryphon3• 8 years ago

How about Montréal?

abrichr2• 8 years ago

Maybe it’s actully a really good place to live?

ajeet_dhaliwal• 8 years ago

I agree. I lived in the Toronto area for about 10 years. I visit regularly still because I have a lot of family there. I would consider moving back too but these fluff pieces as you say do not help. The first thing that is needed for more people who live there to admit there are problems, specifically with low wages (and relatively high taxes too applied at lower levels), I cannot get my friends or family to even realize that because they are still quoting 1990s UN studies about Toronto being the number 1 city in the world to live or something like that, being critical isn't always being negative, if you love a place there should be a desire to improve it, not ignore issues.

canada_dry• 8 years ago

As a Canadian tech guy who travels to Silicon Valley and Seattle fairly frequently the impression that most US techies have is that Toronto is an awesome place to live, but it is not (yet) a magnet for top talent.

There are many amazing startups at any given moment in Toronto... but many of the folks involved have their sights set on FANG.

digianarchist2• 8 years ago

Not hard to see why.

I just jumped jobs in Toronto and I found it very hard to find a job that pays $120k+ CAD, a developer with 6+ years of experience.

paulie_a2• 8 years ago

I am not familiar with Toronto personally but it would have one huge benefit over silicon valley...you don't have to live in silicon valley.

Edit: I'd prefer Siberia over sv, there is a reason talented people are getting the hell out of there and many major companies are building huge offices elsewhere.

abrichr2• 8 years ago

What is the reason?

scardine• 8 years ago

May be Canada can't attract top talent from USA but the best half of the team that worked with me in Brazil the last couple years are now in Canada, Ireland or Germany.

kirbypineapple• 8 years ago

The wages in Toronto are laughable. In the praries it's possible to make maybe 10 to 20k less than Toronto salaries but the houses are half the price.

thinkingkong2• 8 years ago

This is a Canada wide problem. Rather, Id even say its a !valley problem. Canadian businesses keep making this weird assumption that theres some kind of market capture but it’s really only true for people who have to stay in the city or country for some reason. The addressable hirable market is the people who chose / have to stay and havent realized being employed by a US business is as easy as switching github organizations and slack teams.

acchow8• 8 years ago

"!valley problem"? Seattle and New York aren't in the "valley" and have the same compensation as the valley.

jandrewrogers3• 8 years ago

I do think it reflects more of a "not US" than a "not Silicon Valley/Seattle" problem these days. Anecdotally, I've discovered that most sufficiently large companies in the US now recognize and will credibly attempt to compete with the stratospheric Silicon Valley wages for the upper echelons of tech talent no matter where the company is located. For example, I've seen many cases of the Fortune 500, most of which are in inexpensive flyover metros in unsexy States (the US has ~55 metros with at least a million people), offering the upper end of the six-figure range for an individual contributor with exceptional skills. Seeing old, non-tech companies headquartered in Missouri or wherever doing this is a sea change.

For American software engineers, this is a brilliant change of condition. A decade ago, if you lived and wanted to work in the flyover metros, you were lucky to get six-figures at all no matter who you were or what you'd done. These days, big non-tech companies are willing to push toward a seven-figure comp package in flyover country for top tech people, in cities where almost no one makes six-figures. It has been really interesting to see.

ninjakeyboard4• 8 years ago

The wages in toronto have skyrocketed in the last couple years. I'm looking for functional programming people if you're interested I can pay at least $120k/year and offer considerable equity to work on realtime systems. We're profitable and not funded. We have a couple seats to fill and I'm having a hard time because people in Scala circles are expecting $150k/year in Toronto. Many of my peers are making $150k no problem in the city as full time employees at your average tech company.

If you have elixir or scala experience, like FP, like realtime problems...

ibopm2• 8 years ago

Is that CAD or USD though? Because you're still really underpaying if it's CAD.

Liru• 8 years ago

Where are all the Elixir jobs at in Toronto? I can't seem to find any.

acchow8• 8 years ago

It sounds like you are fully aware that you should raise compensation. Why don't you?

motohagiography2• 8 years ago

Congrats on having a profitable self funded company, and in Toronto, that is amazing.

As an example situation, I'd like in this pseudononymous situation to ask what are the factors and principles that makes $120k/y a reasonable offer for a functional programmer in Toronto?

A consultant earns about $1k+/day, or double the proposed salary, and companies typically pay $1600-2400/day for contractors through an agency, so I'm trying to figure out what makes that $120k/year viable.

Presumably you pay based on what the work is worth to the company (revenue per employee) and what you can find in the market.

If you are getting price takers at that level, that's the market clearing price, then the market is the market.

But if you aren't getting takers, what is the value can you afford to pay for at $120k, but can also afford to not-have that value if it saves you $30k? Is there a revenue-per-employee threshold, or are you reaching a diminishing marginal return on additional developers - which suggests you are toward the end of your growth curve?

The idea that a company can afford to wait two quarters or longer to hold out for a %20 salary savings by waiting for someone to take it suggests that the marginal value of the work isn't very high.

The definition of a shitty job is pretty much one where your work isn't valued, and when you compare Toronto offers to the rest of the market, they are literally advertising, "we will pay you for work we don't value!" Is there a principle at play here, or is it just a straight "take it or leave it," offer?

The saying, "we can't afford cheap things," is why SFBA startups pay so much - because there is too much multiples growth at stake to miss out of it by saving on small things. Do we just not have the same growth upside?

ibopm2• 8 years ago

I live in Toronto and work for a well-known US company. It's the best.

adriand• 8 years ago

These conversations, which appear every time a post appears on HN that talks about what a great place Toronto is (along with many other places in Canada), make me sad.

There is so much more to life than money.

TomMarius2• 8 years ago

There definitely is, but at the same time, you need money to have a comfortable life for you, your parents, your partner and your children (and then their children).

jgh4• 8 years ago

Sure but Toronto is expensive and they pay isn't very good considering. If it were people lamenting only being paid $300k instead of $400k then we could be like "it's just money!" but I heard when I was there a few months back CAD$120k is pretty typical for a senior dev, which is roughly $90k USD, and the housing and whatnot isn't all that much cheaper than in big US cities.

randomdata• 8 years ago

But with so many great places in Canada, why not choose one that is both great and offers more compensation, the latter of which helps multiply the greatness?

apercu12• 8 years ago

Agreed. But it's gotten very expensive to live in the GTA and salaries need to reflect that.

wintorez• 8 years ago

It depends. They are not bad if you're a contractor.

apercu12• 8 years ago

Agreed, I don't even code anymore (I provide business and integration strategy primarily) and have no problem getting $100-150/hr and for 4 years have had as much work as I've wanted.

adamgravitis• 8 years ago

Toronto’s tech talent is keen... but relatively green. Since few companies have had to deal with scaling networks, users and data to the same magnitude as is common with Valley companies, it’s almost impossible to find senior engineers worthy of the title. Plenty of options for junior and intermediate, though.

ninjakeyboard4• 8 years ago

Yeah. I'm struggling to find really solid engineers in the city. I need really experienced people and I can't find anyone. Even the most sr consultants and contractors have a lot of gaps and don't understand the real edge cases that appear in systems.

I was lucky enough to learn from a team as we went through a google acquisition and watch and learn as the technology was scaled in both the context of a startup, and later inside Google. I was the whitebelt in the back of the room but that experience of working in that team was the most valuable experience I could have ever hoped for and I still regularly mail the people that I absorbed from to let them know how grateful I am to have taken me along on that journey. It's not a common experience but that completely humbled me and fixed my dunning-kruger arrogant ass.

grigory• 8 years ago

Jumping into a project with a truly world-class team is a very humbling experience, and certainly something to seek out in one's career!

FLUX-YOU• 8 years ago

"God, why can't companies train more senior engineers so I won't have to train them?!"

raverbashing4• 8 years ago

No, Toronto isn't a "Global tech leader"

A lot of startups, but a significant amount seem very "gimmicky". (Probably less than SV, but it seems there are less companies that "started up" then grew to a significant size). That or you can work for the Megacorps, usually in the suburbs in their lifeless campuses.

Not to mention the salaries.

Also Canada tech companies in general seems to use less open source than USA or Europe.

cam3ham3• 8 years ago

Ecobee, WealthSimple, Shopify,

raverbashing4• 8 years ago

I'd say Shopify is an exception (and it started in Ottawa)

I hadn't heard about the other two

pards• 8 years ago

I've been living and working in Toronto since 2003, and can attest that it truly is a fantastic city to live in.

Most of the senior developers I know in Toronto work as independent contractors for large enterprises because they can get paid significantly more than the base salaries mentioned here. Contractor rates rival Silicon Valley salaries.

The downside of independent contracting is that you forgo sick pay, holiday pay, and employee-sponsored perks like extended health care. However, Ontario has an excellent public health system that covers all residents so the need for additional health benefits is questionable.

qcpydev2• 8 years ago

Hi, I'm a contractor in Québec City work as a Business analyst. Can you tell me what is the hourly rate in Toronto ? And how do you find your clients ? It's my first year of working as a contractor. Thanks.

apercu12• 8 years ago

Depends on your experience/expertise. I typically see vast ranges with more junior people charging $50/hr, intermediates at $80/hr, and seniors (people with decades of business experience) between $100-180/hr.

I sub out work now and then, I'll add an email address to my profile. I'd like to know your skill sets.

lucidone• 8 years ago

Why live in Toronto for a 90k CAD salary when I can live close to Waterloo and get an 80k CAD salary? Perhaps I'm very lucky, but it goes a lot farther.

dear• 8 years ago

You can live in Waterloo and work in Toronto. Commute by greyhound daily. I know people who do that for years.

bungie4• 8 years ago

I'm from Toronto. Congrats to Toronto for its accomplishments.

It should be realized that their is a great standard of living available outside of major tech centers all across the country(s). The opportunity is different, but the jobs do exist. I'd argue that their is far more opportunity outside of tech centers than within. A tech center addresses the issue of distribution. More specifically, of concentration. Having a small cluster of a 100 or so tech businesses conveniently located pales in comparison to the 10's of thousands scatter across the corporate landscape.

Its myopic to measure 'success' with such a short term metric. My measure of success is different at a wholesale level from my 20's to my 40's. Toronto is fantastic for those less than 30. Tons to see and do, easy access to everything. Flash forward 20 years with a family and kids and it's not so attractive anymore. What were once benefits are now become detriments.

That being said, today is my last day at work in my less than 150K population town. I start a new job in 2 weeks, +$$, +benefits etc. Same scenario, smaller location. My compensation is is within striking distance of the wages in Toronto's tech center. But without the heavy cost of accommodations (all else being marginally cheaper) but more importantly, I'm 5 minutes from a entire world of green space and the crushing humanity that is found in all major centers, Toronto included.

Enjoy your success T.O. :D

microcolonel• 8 years ago

As a Canadian-U.S. dual citizen who has spent my whole life in Canada, and most of it in Toronto, I honestly can't justify settling down in Ontario. The taxes are high and complicated, the services are subpar (and I don't use most of them), and Canada largely lacks the civil rights stability enjoyed in the U.S. under the Constitution (as currently amended and interpreted), particularly regarding freedom of speech and the bounds of unlawful search.

apercu12• 8 years ago

This is one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen. Agreed that Canada doesn't have the 1st amendment but it's not like people feel they can't express themselves, unless what you have to say is threatening or offensive. In which case, you usually get away with it anyway. So unless one is a right wing christian that wants to post pictures of disgusting things or a racist that wants to put down other people I'm not sure why one would feel their civil rights were impinged.

cam3ham3• 8 years ago

lolwat

acchow8• 8 years ago

Can you elaborate (with examples) how the freedom of speech (and other liberties) in Canada is in practice "less" than that enjoyed in the US?

Or are you speaking entirely theoretically?

apercu12• 8 years ago

If I had more work in Waterloo, Paris, Guelph, etc.. I'd definitely move further west (I'm on the western tip of Missisauga now). But, 90% of my clients are in the city so I have to go in to Toronto 4-5 times a month. Not really worth moving further west yet.

se30b• 8 years ago

Those Mirvish+Gehry tower plans look hideous. How did such a monstrosity get approved? What an absolute embarrassment for Toronto, lol.

apercu12• 8 years ago

I see these posts a lot lately. I've worked in Chicago, Madison, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Des Moines, Hopewell New Jersey and Toronto.

A few points: A "senior" dev in Toronto would be someone with 8-10 years of experience. They can easily make 120+. I've hired many of them. Very few organizations in the GTA consider someone with 2-4 years a "senior", and those people will be lucky to make 90k. That make the COL in the GTA difficult.

If you truly are an amazing developer and you can't get a high salary in the GTA, get in touch.

Also, it would be interesting to see the ages of people who post. When I was in my 20's I'm sure I would have stayed in the Bay area if salaries were as good as they are now. But there really wasn't a _huge_ disparity in wages in the late 90's/Early 2000's between SV and elsewhere. I likely would have left the Bay area in my 30's though. And moving to Canada is one of the best decisions I feel I have ever made, especially considering the last 2 years.

EDIT: As a side note, I think outside of SV, ALL tech salaries (and all other industries)are too low and have been stagnant for the most part for a decade.

cam3ham3• 8 years ago

I'm from Toronto but did 3 year stint in SF and then a 4 year stint in NYC. I moved back to Toronto last year to purchase and settle into my home base. Love it here.

These comments are hilarious and so typical of Toronto - there is a reason it's called the "screwface capital" of the world and I think it really rings true.

Developments in tech in Toronto over the past seven years

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