Ask HN: Anyone read Tibetan Book of Living and Dying?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1763111

by rblion • 16 years ago

20 38 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Just curious. I've met a lot of interesting people through this discussions about this book.

codedivine• 16 years ago

Yes I did. Fantastic book.

edit: Has been some time though.

jasonwatkinspdx• 16 years ago

Once a long time ago. I recall some of being quite striking, but these days I'm (overly?) cynical about things that have the scent of mysticism.

rblion13• 16 years ago

Me too. I avoid New Age-y books altogether. This is one gem in a pile of rhinestones. This wisdom in this book seems to be in universal in nature and applies to all atoms, cells, being, and stars.

naradaellis2• 16 years ago

I also think that the Tao Te Ching (and Chuang Tzu in the same vein, and Alan Watts for a modern take) is amazingly applicable to life today and is surprisingly not that New Age-y.

pavlov• 16 years ago

I haven't read the book, but I've seen the new movie Enter the Void by Gaspar Noé, which pretends to be a kind of dramatization of the Tibetan post-death myth. One of the most unique films I've ever seen.

rblion13• 16 years ago

sounds interesting. ill look that up.

rudin• 16 years ago

Just a warning who anybody thinks the book is ancient and "gutenbergable" (as the name kind of implies). Don't bother, it is only 10 years old.

rblion13• 16 years ago

the ideas are ancient and they still resonate today. the author never claims they are all original either.

eof3• 16 years ago

I originally thought this was all about the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'

kunley2• 16 years ago

This book is actually a tibetan manual for a dying person on how to proceed with his mind during the process. It's not a poem nor mystical metaphore about anything not related to dying.

One of the translations of the original sub-title is: "the precious way of liberation through listening", meaning that the purpose was to read it to the dying person in order to liberate his mind from the subconscious baggage which resurfaces and takes over during dying.

The images, scenes and dramatis personae (including gods, demons and stuff) occuring in the text are all projections of the subconscious impressions in mind, accumulated during a life and resurfacing when dying. The fact that this is not explained in the book is because every tibetan buddhist knows / takes for granted that mind works this way, so there's no need to explain it additionally.

The other funny thing and a source of misconception is the translation: while tibetan culture was perceived inferior, mystical and over-religious by westerners, it was actually discovering lots of stuff about consciousness and subconsciousness since centuries, same as the whole buddhism. But the western discoverers couldn't believe that tibetans, being technologically inferior, were able to make a progress in different areas, so when translating they didn't used then-new terminology like counsciousness and stuff, but used church-like terminology like if they were translating european middle-ages material. This trend, though diminishing, continues to this day.

My advice is to remember this book was written for different people and then translated using language and metaphors the translators could bear. Yet since 70s some people made a huge advance of making a connection between asian and western way of thinking in order to bring the buddhist methods to the west, cutting off the misconceptions and cultural baggages. Such teachers, whether would they be Zen or Diamond Way representatives, can teach practical stuff on what to do during dying or how to help dying people in our modern world. If anyone's interested I'd reach such teachers instead of taking such books too seriously.

rblion13• 16 years ago

Nothing is permanent and we are all dying people, if you really think about it.

The book is about shedding all the layers of delusion that separate man from the universe.

Einstein believed Buddhism would be an ideal candidate for a universal religion for lifeforms outside of Earth too.

What I got from the book is a simple way to focus on the immaterial instead of the material. To see the entire universe with consciousness and compassion instead of an expanse to be colonized and conquered.

I think the world is just reaching a point where the Eastern and Western perspectives are starting to become one. The 21st century is the dawn of the universal age where we all start to realize we are made of equal atoms and cells striving for survival and transcendence.

This book seems to be in tune with modern science journals too.

robin_reala2• 16 years ago

[citation needed]?

kunley2• 16 years ago

I'm happy this book inspired you into some thinking. The question is, how is it going to practically change your life in a long term?

I'm making this point just to strike a common misconception, not that you're certainly in it, but for anyone reading this thread. People often have an impression that buddhism is mystical, it says about all things being one and that if they got into it seriously they would be given next levels of beautiful thoughts and ideas up to the final nirvana.

It's not like that at all. Buddhism is practical. Deadly practical. Meaning one has to fight his own limitations first. You get some meditations and instructions from a teacher, usually tied specifically to you, and you do meditate. It changes you. Ego fights back. But if you continue the practice you loose some previous obstacles and in general you see a new value in your relations with people, your view, in everyday things. Then another obstacles come, and so on.

The crucial are meditations from a teacher - it all makes sense only when you trust him. The trust must be earned somehow, it's not measurable. One of the meditations is a conscious dying meditation which I for example relearn every year. Others work best if you repeat them every day. It changes you inevitably. There's no warranty it will change you for the good, but you observe yourself. You observe the mind. It's a constant work, meant to finally relax you not tire you, though.

All this sweat is for understanding that everything we feel and see, including material world, is only a projection of the mind, so it's best to focus on mind itself instead of images which it mirrors. And keep this view possibly all the time.

Of course this view is kinda related to recent discoveries of science, esp. quantum physics and so on. But what does it mean in an everyday life? Did Einstein had a hunch buddhism is related to physics and is probably very useful? Yes. Did he follow that path? No. Did he remember in every minute of his life that things are impermanent and world is a dream? Probably not. Was he impervious to anger because of that understanding? Probably not. Some people say he was terrible person, others say he was excellent and nice. Whatever. Einstein's words may be a trampoline for someone to become interested in buddhism but he's no expert on the topic.

So, to really judge if it works it'd best to actually find the people who do it, or even know such people and compare how they behaved in the past and how they behave now. I know it's not easy. But Einstein, well, is dead... We're not, yet.

edit: Thank you HNers if you read this, these are important things and it seemed urgent to share my few cents.

zeynel12• 16 years ago

"to focus on the immaterial instead of the material." "the Eastern and Western perspectives are starting to become one"

I don't know if Buddhism assumes a material world, but Western world's assumption of a material world goes back to Newton who defined nature to be physical, that is, material.

I think that if we are living in definitional and not material world our current definition of the "spiritual" and "immaterial" breaks down. http://matterandreality.wordpress.com/

hunterjrj4• 16 years ago

After reading it I began to research Sogyal Rinpoche and came across the allegation that he had abused his position and assaulted a woman.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6...

Definitely tainted the advice presented in the book: "Do as I say, not as I do", etc.

rblion13• 16 years ago

the message, not the messenger.

you didn't gain anything positive from the book?

hunterjrj4• 16 years ago

Tricky question. The sections that describe the process of dying were fascinating, especially those sections that describe the grand luminosity. I found the message behind the ideas and processes he describes very positive.

However, Sogyal Rinpoche's message about compassion seems a little thin to me in light of the allegation. He is accused of abusing his position to coerce followers into a sexual relationship. Doesn't seem compassionate to me.

I'll admit that I've judged the man based solely on accusations and intimations. But the accusations are strong and are repeated. I encourage you to read the article I linked in my original response.

GiraffeNecktie2• 16 years ago

Sexual abuse is incredibly widespread among all faiths from pentecostal TV preachers to Roman Catholic priests, Buddhist abbots, Indian gurus, shamans, new agers, imams, you name it. Probably anytime that individuals are given an elevated position due to their supposed divinity or divine knowledge, it leads to abuse. Are the Quakers any different? They seem to buck the trend of following a bigshot leader.

eof3• 16 years ago

I read it years ago in college and took it as a metaphor for a psychedelic experience. No surprise I was having a lot of psychedelic experiences at that point in my life.

To be clear, I don't think that it was literally meant for tripping folk, but I also think kunley (top rated comment at the moment) may have missed something fundamental maybe due perhaps to not grasping a fundamental part of tibetan and buddhist culture.

To the Buddhist, the whole of existence is a struggle between experiencing the perfection of the cosmos as your bona fide identity and your mundane ego. Liberation is not something for those on their death bed, liberation is the thing to strive for.

-- well I was writing about 'The tibetan book of the dead' I have never heard of this particular book, I just realized. I figure I will just leave this here in case anyone is interested rather than just delete it.

rblion13• 16 years ago

I think Steve Jobs, Jason Fried and many other design geeks can relate to this experience in their developing years.

It is what it is. Psychedelic means mind-manifesting so the two should go hand in hand anyways. I think people just overthink enlightenment and miss how simple the universe really is. Ancient wisdom and modern science are coming together and revealing the same truths.

Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-Exploration-Parallels-Myst...

eof3• 16 years ago

I'll try and get a copy of that locally and add it to my list in any case.

I have read a number of books trying to tie the link between ancient mysticicsm and modern physics. I am not a physicist and have only the most basic understanding of the maths involved in quantum systems.

However, without fail, these ideas seem pretty much universally dismissed by the graduate level math and physics students I have had the opportunity to talk with these things about.

No one wants to let go of determinism it seems.

mindcrime• 16 years ago

Not yet. I bought a copy over a year ago, but it's still in my queue. My only real exposure to Eastern thought, Buddhism, etc. have been the books "Introduction to Zen Buddhism" and "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind."

GiraffeNecktie2• 16 years ago

Just wanted to note that some people are confusing the recent Tibetan Book of Living and Dying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibetan_Book_of_Living_and_... with the ancient Tibetan Book of the Dead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_book_of_the_dead

rblion13• 16 years ago

The latter is the source of the material covered in the first. Dalai Lama introduces the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying.

Ask HN: Anyone read Tibetan Book of Living and Dying?

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