My Mac Mini

by ashu • 18 years ago

24 96 18 years ago

ssharp• 18 years ago

Pretty common complaints about the actual OS for people who are used to windows. You just have to get used to the idea that windows float and that it's not really designed to have windows maximized. I was pretty used to the interface after a month or so, I started in late 2003, so Panther was out by then and Expose helped out a lot.

I have to disagree with running 2 monitors, I've done it for a couple years now and have never had any usability issues.

However, the Apple store comments are pretty much dead-on. I'd rather just order online or go to a reseller then deal with the Apple Store.

abstractbill4• 18 years ago

it's not really designed to have windows maximized

I've heard this line before - people say it as if something disastrous would happen if Apple gave in and made the green '+' a maximize button... so far nothing's coming to mind.

(btw, I haven't used windows for anything other than testing IE for about 9 years, and I still hate Apple's choice regarding the 'zoom' button).

TheWama• 18 years ago

The disastrous thing is that it would be less useful to have a maximized window be 10x the size of its contents. For example, IMO the behavior of safari on maximize is just beautiful, because it's tailored to the specific website you're viewing.

If the application is a window into your data, why make that window bigger than necessary, thus obscuring your desktop, or some other window behind it? That may not be disastrous, but I think its intent makes sense.

Without further explanation, I end up suspecting that when he writes: "it almost never does what you’d want or expect it to," the emphasis is on his expectations as a Windows user, not on what he would prefer, all things being equal.

[and for the record, I'm speaking as an Ubuntu user, who has never owned a mac]

rms3• 18 years ago

Matt, I think you should try Ubuntu for comparison purposes.

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

I probably will soon.

PStamatiou2• 18 years ago

i keep thinking you're richard stallman ;-) .. was the username intended as such?

rms3• 18 years ago

It was intended to be funny and ironic, I'm definitely not trying to impersonate the great rms. It originated as an abbreviation for "rupert murdoch sucks."

petercooper2• 18 years ago

I thought this post was satire until about 75% of the way down..

That said, his point about installing programs is spot on for people from the Windows world. It makes sense in a UNIX-y way, but it's totally counterintuitive if you've come from Windows. I found it odd the first time, then grew to love it.

ashu2• 18 years ago

Ubuntu/Debian which is more UNIX-y than MacOS in some ways has none of this. Software installation and uninstallation is a breeze.

In my 2 months of experience with the Mac, I have found that the Mac is very appealing when it's new. It's beautiful, but sometimes it feels like Steve Jobs prefers form over function a bit too much.

goofygrin2• 18 years ago

How in the hell do you think that dragging files to an "Applications" folder is unix-y?

Ubuntu: Synaptic or "sudo apt-get install xyz" Fedora: "yum install xyz"

Certainly don't see any goofy dragging app files around here.

mrtron5• 18 years ago

Oh dear god.

Using a package manager or manually grabbing the files and building it IS basically like dragging files to an Applications folder.

You have all your files for an app in one known spot. That's all there is (excluding environment variables). What is non-unixy is installing a bunch of garbage into a registry (did I mention I hate registries?).

petercooper2• 18 years ago

Package management is modern UNIX-y. I'm talking about the process where you download a single file that contains an application (a disk image or a tarball, say) then perform a process to install the app (dragging or "./configure && make && install").

These OS X / UNIX techniques compared to Windows' "download an EXECUTABLE that does all the installation for you" is like night and day.

elai• 18 years ago

I personally found it more intuitive than the windows method. You don't know how many people you hear about screwing up windows some way because they just thought deleting the folder in program files would be enough. Or thinking that the shortcut is the program and deleting it would uninstall it. All those explanatory message boxes that come up in windows comes from common mistakes and misconceptions that show up in user usability testing.

Mac: The application is a file. To get rid of it, just delete it like a file. Windows: You have to run a program to install it, and run a program to uninstall it. Do it any other way and

The mac paradigm is a bit leaky although, with .pkg files and what not. The .dmg distribution method is a bit annoying, but it allows developers to add fancy graphics when people install their programs.

mosburger• 18 years ago

It is counterintuitive. Fortunately, after I got my Mac, the first few programs that I installed had a giant "Drag the Application Icon to your Applications Folder" message when I opened the .dmg file. After the first time, I got it. Admittedly, I thought it was kinda silly the first time I did it. But now I really like it.

rsanheim• 18 years ago

I think both install processes suck, in their own ways.

Mac does due to all the reasons listed by the article.

Win sucks (at least circa XP, I haven't touched Vista) in that each installer is often still inconsistent and unique in its own little annoying ways. Plus you have issues with apps putting shared files all over, in different directories, so uninstall is a mess. Mac install is better in that regard, since uninstall usually means dragging the .app to the trash.

boredguy8• 18 years ago

Mac is equally inconsistent (contrast the drag-and-drop approach with, say, any Adobe installer). And you can't merely remove the App folder from the Applications directory: most applications write many preference files elsewhere.

jimbokun3• 18 years ago

He later happens onto one reason the process makes sense: uninstall just by deleting the application file. He is confused about how to install an app because there is no installation. You just put the program anywhere you want (the Applications folder thing is really just a suggestion) and double click to run. In fact, you can even run directly from the disk image, which Matt did without realizing at first that was what he had done.

So, the reason the Mac approach seems strange is because it makes the whole install/uninstall concept just go away altogether. Perhaps a suitable HN metaphor: it eliminates an onion.

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

Couldnt it do a one or two click install like Windows and then let you just delete the program from Apps directory?

ivank• 18 years ago

I still use Windows, but run an Ubuntu VM in it for all web development. You get the real Windows, the real Linux, everyone wins. Microsoft's investment in fonts really shows - it's my #1 reason for sticking with the OS.

icey2• 18 years ago

You can install the Microsoft core fonts in Ubuntu. I think the package is called msttcorefonts; but if that doesn't work for you, it's in Synaptic.

menloparkbum5• 18 years ago

Genius Bar is lame.

Never had a problem with dual monitors aside from the fact that now the adaptor isn't bundled, and the DVI cable they will try to sell you first at the Mac Store uses a pin layout that no monitor or cable sold actually uses.

The maximize button is indeed bizarre. I just maximized safari and it made the window 2/3 the size I had it and shifted it to the left hand corner of the screen. Then I "maximized" iTunes and it sent it into mini mode. Maximizing iChat seems to switch the buddy window from a skinny column to a wider, but shorter rectangle.

Not sure why installing problems is so hard, my grandma and 11 year old cousins have no problems with this. However, every die hard windows switcher can't seem to figure it out.

Fonts are a matter of taste and Windows users have none. But that's OK! MySpace is the #1 social network, NASCAR is the #1 sport in America and Bill Gates is the richest dude around. Taste doesn't really matter as much as people who have it would like to think...

ph0rque• 18 years ago

> ...Bill Gates is the richest dude around...

Don't mean to nitpick, but he's currently #3, actually (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires).

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

Also NASCAR isn't number 1 by most metrics. Revenue, attendance, TV audience. It's second or worst by any meaningful measurement. That line is bandied about frequently but has no real truth to it.

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

It's hard because it's far more complicated than clicking an installer. I outlined the procedure. Anyone can do it once they understand it, but how would you ever guess to mount a virtual drive (most people wouldn't even understand what one is) and then the rest?

menloparkbum5• 18 years ago

I think it is only hard because your brain is thinking in terms of virtual drives and installers. For my grandma and my 11 year old cousins both types of installs are simply clicking various things on the screen until stuff works and are essentially equivalent.

dfranke• 18 years ago

.dmgs threw me for a loop the first time I tried a Mac, as well. If somebody had just told me "they're compressed loopback devices" I would have understood (I was coming from Linux), but I was expecting them to be like tarballs and spent a while confused.

jcromartie• 18 years ago

Apps packaged in DMG files is sort of an odd artifact of OS X's past. Early versions of OS X didn't really have support for various archive formats in the GUI, and so the DMG format was the best option that worked out of the box. Now with 10.5 you can use a whole plethora of archive formats. Heck, you can send someone an app in a .tbz2 and it will unpack as expected with a simple double-click.

(I may be remembering this all wrong; someone please correct me if that's the case.)

aneesh• 18 years ago

Sage advice from a high school friend: "If you can use Windows, you can use Linux. If you can't, get a Mac. While you won't be able to use it either, at least it'll look pretty."

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

The first sentence is very incorrect. My 50 yr old aunt can use Windows. I tried installing Myth TV on a Red Hat distro and had to call for help.

jrockway4• 18 years ago

It sounds like you're either incompetent or just unwilling to learn.

jauco• 18 years ago

Upmodded you because i don't see why your comment points should be negative, but let me assure you that your 50 year old aunt won't be able to install MythTV or whatever on windows either, it depends on the app, not the OS.

hs2• 18 years ago

that's probably because GNU/linux programs must/can run on windows (emphasis on GNU)

other OS like OpenBSD doesn't give fuck about windows users. It's just created and used by and for themselves (altho others port it to virtually every os - OpenSSH? )

and no, i feel no hate from OpenBSD people toward windows users, at least not as much as linux users' in forums -- maybe if u really love what you do, you have no time to criticize others shrug

to me, OSX is also created for windows users (people who are less computer savvy) so i feel it's lacking (i use tiger for 3+ years)

alex_c2• 18 years ago

dual monitors (which, by the way, you shouldn’t even bother attempting on a Mac. My cofounder has to close the lid when he hooks his MBP up to a monitor).

Funny, my cofounder's MBP works just fine with a second monitor.

The window maximizing thing is probably my biggest single annoyance when using a Mac. I've noticed that some people hate maximizing windows, and prefer having them smaller and overlapping, I guess to be able to see the contents and make switching between them easier. I'm the opposite, I need my windows maximized - I don't ever want to deal with moving or resizing them, alt-tab or the taskbar work just fine for me. I guess Macs work great for the first group of people, but not for me.

jimbokun3• 18 years ago

"The window maximizing thing is probably my biggest single annoyance when using a Mac."

I can't tell which people understand the philosophy of window maximizing on the Mac and don't like it, and who finds the behavior just random, so let me explain:

The Mac UI assumes the point of maximizing a window is to see all of its content at once, so enlarging past the size at which all content is visible at once is unnecessary. This can be nice, once you understand what it's doing and are used to it. If you understand this and still don't like it, that is your prerogative, too, of course.

alex_c2• 18 years ago

That does seem consistent with what I've seen, though I hadn't consciously realized it.

I still have trouble seeing how this philosophy can work for something like Word or even Firefox, where the content reorganizes itself to fit the window - I could swear Macs don't always make a window full-screen in these scenarios. And you can still move a "maximized" window, which is also annoying.

I'll keep this in mind next time and see if it helps me.

ashu2• 18 years ago

Window maximising: I use some Quicksilver scripts from

http://jon.smajda.com/blog/2007/06/30/keyboard-control-for-m...

The fact that you can use keyboard shortcuts makes this even better.

axod7• 18 years ago

"First you download a dmg file which, when clicked, creates a virtual drive. On the virtual drive is the program, which you then have to drag into your Applications folder. Then you have to unmount the virtual drive and delete the dmg file from your desktop"

"There’s no way that anyone could guess this procedure"

You are kidding right? My wife guessed this. My 9 year old can do this. It's brain dead simple, and makes perfect sense - you can see what stuff is there before you install. You can read a readme sometimes before installing.

I think it helps when trying something new, to have an open mind. Instead of just saying "eugh! this is different. It must be bad"

mrtron5• 18 years ago

sarcasm ahead

I have no idea how you delete applications on a Mac either. You have to go to Applications and delete that folder you copied to your Applications directory?

It is much better having an 'uninstaller' that does a half-assed job at removing things from the registry and cleaning up files.

Matt I realize trolling can feel good on the short term but people will give you more respect in the long run if you are sincere.

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

Anyone who disagrees with you must be trolling.

axod7• 18 years ago

"and what the hell is a keychain?"

Obviously if you don't know what it is, it must be bad! Don't find out what it is, just assume it's bad :/

What the hell is a 'registry'? :P

Xichekolas2• 18 years ago

What the hell is a 'world file'?

Op, gentoo got the best of me.

PStamatiou2• 18 years ago

emerge world!

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

Not bad, but if I have to think about it or Google it, it's counterintuitive. Windows just saves your passwords in the app if you tell it to. On OSX, they save them in a keychain and require me to put in my keychain password every time. This doesn't save me any typing.

LPTS• 18 years ago

No, but it does let you just remember one password you change regularly while allowing you to have different complex passwords at each site. So it allows you to have better security for lower costs. The point isn't to save you typing, its to let you have better security for the same typing.

(You can put a password on boot and wake from sleep and turn the password off your keychain, too, if you prefer not to type it every time, at a cost of having your passwords exposed if you leave it on and someone steals a minute on your computer.)

axod7• 18 years ago

Perhaps that's why mac is just a tad more secure. Would you rather a unified system for managing your passwords, or just have applications store them in plaintext files?

When I switched to mac I was actually pretty impressed that such a thing existed.

Call me a cynic, but I think you decided you hated macs way way before you ever tried one.

hs2• 18 years ago

on maximize & dual monitor

why do you have to put extra efforts when you can just use tiled wm (i use dwm and dmenu) ? maximizing comes automatic

don't two monitors kill your focus flow? maybe you are more productive (result from research by monitor manuf - doing repetitive stuff)

the real danger is you'll be less creative

timcederman• 18 years ago

Very typical response - slightly angrier, but overall the same experience I had.

I am surprised Matt didn't notice the slicker look and feel, and far better responsiveness of OS X. I am continually surprised at what my Mini can manage with 512mb of RAM compared to my M1330 running Vista with 3GB.

mattmaroon20• 18 years ago

I'm not seeing that. I click just about any application to load and the little icon bounces at the bottom for just as long as it takes to open Word on my Vista machine (2gb RAM).

m0nty2• 18 years ago

'A girl with some sort of mullethawk and a tattoo creeping up her neck asked me if I needed help and I almost said “no, but you do.”'

You know, that seems a pretty hostile way to (almost) talk to a stranger. Maybe it's a cultural thing ...

m0nty2• 18 years ago

Note to self: must remember to do more group-think.

jpeterson• 18 years ago

OK, this guy obviously went into this experience not wanting to like the mac.

First of all, installation is a no-brainer. Once you click a link for an app, Safari downloads and automounts the dmg, leaving you with the simple task of dragging it into the application folder. How is dragging a new application into a folder called "Applications" counterintuitive?

Second, I've used many macs and I've never had a single problem with the dual-screen setup. This issue was something environmental in your case, I believe.

jimbokun3• 18 years ago

"How is dragging a new application into a folder called "Applications" counterintuitive?"

I think the larger point is, if that is the biggest usability barrier in adopting an entirely different operating system, the Mac UI people are doing something right.

rob• 18 years ago

App/package management on OS X is pretty bad, especially since there's no automated way to uninstall stuff. Yes, I know that you drag the app to the trash, but there's usually preference files, caches, folders in 'Application Support', etc, that get left behind unless you use a program such as AppZapper to get rid of them. Something like that should be built into OS X.

Although I've only used it on a server (and not a desktop), Debian/Ubuntu's aptitude/apt-get package system is probably the easiest thing I've ever used. It's awesome.

nertzy• 18 years ago

AppZapper comes highly recommended: http://appzapper.com/

jacabado• 18 years ago

"Everybody serious about doing software should make their own hardware." Steve Jobs

That might no longer be true as PPC died, but anybody serious about doing software should experiment Mac OS and the application ecosystem around it. What surprised me the most was the fit between the Apple market and some applications that have no equivalent in Windows/Unix. For me Scrivener was a dream I had.

There's a lot to be said, and it's really interesting to compare the platforms, but not in reply to a post of a smart guy who finds counterintuitive to install in Mac OS.

Hey Matt you don't have to live with applications that have 20+ buttons in the first 2 rows of the interface.

And I also think u can keep the controversy tone of your posts without being dumb. You were in a great path.

icey2• 18 years ago

What's hilarious to me is that the headline under "My Mac Mini" is "Tech World, I Am Your Master".

Master, indeed.

My Mac Mini

Related Stories