Riving, a Viking-age woodworking technique

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_woodworking_riving.htm

by sea6ear • 8 years ago

234 81 8 years ago

A while ago, I ended up watching a video about making roofing shingles using hand tools, which uses the same technique, but on only ~footlong logs.

https://youtu.be/UZA1J8RHltY?t=555

DannyBee3• 8 years ago

If you want to scare yourself some time, watch the shingle sawyers do this with power tools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDKYGoIoukg

jaggederest• 8 years ago

That's interesting, but riving them with a shingle axe looks faster to me. At least the guys I've seen do it. And there's no wasted material, or very little at least, compared to a saw kerf.

(An example here, not using a shingle axe but a froe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FjpmFwVLtM )

defen• 8 years ago

I had to stop when it got to the guy casually smoking a cigarette and manipulating logs while not looking as they came out of the 2-foot-diameter spinning blade of death.

jonnycomputer• 8 years ago

I rather like this video. I aspire to chop so well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWo0P0MdJM

oh5nxo2• 8 years ago

The wood looks like somewhat dried aspen, not the worst to chop. Not to dismiss her skill, at all.

yborg• 8 years ago

I would imagine this wood-working technique wasn't unique to the Scandinavians. For one thing, a wedge is much simpler to make than a saw.

timmytwotime• 8 years ago

To your point: a saw is really just a series of sharpened wedges

trhway• 8 years ago

not exactly - saw makes the cut moving along the line of cut while axe - perpendicular. The significant point of difference here is that axe/wedge/etc. thus presses closed the vascular structure of the wood in the area of the cut, while sawing leaves it open - the result is that cut wood is easier to permeate by moisture.

jeromenerf2• 8 years ago

French have a word for people producing wine barrel material: "merrandier".

A "merrandier" will select trees (usually straight oak of a certain age), put them down and to size (the logs are then called "merrain", hence the name), split them using wedges, along the grain, them resplit using a froe (called "départoir", which is just a dull blade with a lever), then refine the smaller bit using a specific tool (called "queue d'hirondelle").

The resulting bits will be send to the barrel maker to be shaped into staves (called "douelles").

Riving is at the heart of the process, and is meant to provide longevity in resistance and impermeability.

GlenTheMachine3• 8 years ago

This is an interesting article, but riving is not specifically Viking. It was the primary method of producing workable wood blanks from tree trunks in every civilization that used wood blanks. Which is to say, it was used all over Europe and Asia (at least), for at least the last 2000-plus years. I'm not as familiar with the woodworking traditions of Africa or pre-European-contact North or South America, so I don't know whether they used wood blanks.

It's also used today by "green woodworkers" - woodworkers who specialize in building using non-dried wood. This mostly includes chair makers, but also some others. You can buy riving tools from a lot of places. Lie-Nielsen makes a very nice riving froe. You can also find antique ones at almost any antique woodworking tool show.

vinceguidry• 8 years ago

The article was hosted on hurstwic.org, which is a website dedicated to teaching Viking martial arts. It does not claim that riving is purely a Viking technique. I suppose it could have mentioned that, but I doubt the author ever considered their article making it to the front page of HN.

jdietrich2• 8 years ago

Riving is still used for producing timber that needs to have perfectly straight grain with minimal runout, most notably the tops of acoustic guitars. The difference in stiffness between a rived and sawn top can be drastic, with commensurate benefits in tone.

http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EpVIEyYiSs

logfromblammo• 8 years ago

Also, baseball bats.

NeedMoreTea• 8 years ago

Also for the production of English long bows for hundreds, possibly thousands, of years.

They carefully included heartwood for the front and sapwood for the rear of the bow. That gave the bow the most strength and benefits of a modern laminate bow in a single piece of wood.

kevin_thibedeau• 8 years ago

Wood roofing shakes are riven.

wott• 8 years ago

And wine barrels.

AngryData• 8 years ago

It is also important for making straight arrows that don't warp or shatter either, especially in the olden days when arrows were made by hand and thus very expensive/time consuming.

321yawaworht• 8 years ago

Where do you guys come from? How do you know all this stuff?

It's so interesting and I'm often surprised at the diversity of knowledge, experience and backgrounds on HN. For even the most esoteric of subjects folks here will have interesting input. I love to try and experiment, and like people who are passionate about things.

Just wanted to get it off my chest. I love this place and it makes me appreciate life and its peculiarities more. When I was in high school I dreaded only observing greasy nerds interested in techy stuff. It's been a while but HN has really shown a different side of the world to me.

Thanks!

GlenTheMachine3• 8 years ago

I'm a very beginning (you might even say aspiring) woodworker. My hobbies are that, and farming. Which are completely different from what I do at work.

CPLX• 8 years ago

If you're at all into woodworking it's just a matter of time before an evening in the YouTube rabbit hole leads you to riving, or Alaskan chainsaw mills, or Wood Mizer demo videos, or silent Japanese guys that are wickedly good at joinery.

jdietrich2• 8 years ago

Most people have a hobby. The kind of people who hang out on HN are the kind of people who'll obsessively learn everything there is to know about their hobby.

scoggs4• 8 years ago

I'm not OP but if (s)he's / they're my age or older (young 30's) we grew up in a time where, depending on where you lived and how much money your family had growing up, knowing these non-technical (in a computer / digital sense) skills was more of the norm. Think "handyman" skills.

I grew up in a household where my father worked in the cement industry. He made nearly all of our furniture, made a full deck in the back yard with an overhang out of wood, as well as created an entire 9.5' deep x ~35' long kidney bean shaped cement pool (something similar to this: https://i.imgur.com/i6eW9UM.jpg ) with a few of his buddies. Beside a cement mixer coming to do the initial pouring everything else was done by hand or with hand tools. I'm still in awe when I see the pictures (developed film in a physical album) of the entire process from start to finish. A grassy hill was turned into our family's happiest and most fun spot on our property all while I was an infant still. I would have loved to be old enough to have helped with that and just thinking about it gets my juices flowing!

Often when he wasn't working he'd have This Old House on the television (started in 1979. The VERY BEST wood working / handy man show NO CONTEST including anything that has come out since) and that'd usually spark off a new ideas for projects and after a trip or two to the local hardware store I was always his day laborer-type-helper. I carried boards on my shoulders, many-o-paving stones, dug many holes, held many things in place, wheelbarrow'd heavy things endlessly, carried buckets full of all sorts of materials, learned how to use every hand and power tool, and banged my thumb many times trying to drive in nails.

Any chance he had he avoided calling construction workers or any other type of service industry for help / to hire because he not only had the skills to do most things himself but he truly enjoyed the hobby of wood working and the craft of being a handyman, so to speak.

I'm really and truly grateful (especially these days) that I grew up admiring him and the type of things he did / liked to do. Just having grown up with that kind of role model and being able to soak up the skills, knowledge, and thought process behind a litany of different handy man skill sets come in handy at least once a week in my life. Also, having grown up slightly before the time when computers just started to become something for the average home, I was exposed to that side of things early and often as well.

The reason I bring all of this up is because my first and longest job I ever had (working with elementary school aged children, 5-10 years old, for an after school / summer camp program at the school I went to growing up) I got to see, first hand, how younger generations (through the kids that I took care of and in the later years via my younger co-workers) may have missed the type of exposure I had to "handy man-type things". Many friends I made at college and in my adult life never got into that type of stuff and would need to make a call to some sort of professional every single time anything more complicated than a light bulb burning out happened. I realized that I was lucky to have had that exposure and those skills and I realized that not everyone else was lucky enough to have had the same.

Being handy saves me money, allows me to customize all sorts of things for myself and others, gives me much more wiggle room when it comes to giving gifts since I can create and modify them, allows me to re-purpose all sorts of things to extend their usefulness, and generally be the type of person others can count on when shit goes down. It also allowed me to work part time jobs of the construction variety or similar things when I was in college and just out of college starting my own web development business when I needed to make sure I had enough money to cover my ass.

I find myself feeling really bad for younger generations that didn't have exposure to that type of life before everything became computerized and digital but I was ignorant in thinking it was only people younger than me. Not everyone is interested in that type of thing even when they have the chance to be exposed to it but looking back on it all now I wouldn't change a thing. I feel like I got two lifetimes of skill sets having grown up and come of age at the time where computers hadn't fully taken over yet and having hands on skills was the norm. I put both to use constantly and just having those skills to draw from has helped raise my value in the eyes of my employers and co-workers countless times and in ways I'd never have suspected going into a gig.

I'm not sure what else I was trying to get at but I'm always thinking about this stuff and rarely find the opportunity to try and explain where my head's at in terms of these topics. But, just like you, I'm in awe of the specific and sometimes very rare skill sets and hobbies HN community members tend to have. I love seeing that passion in general. Something about it reminds me of my passions and I get exactly how they feel even if I don't understand an iota of what they are doing / talking about. It's almost like a shared language of love for a hobby / task / skill / skill set / way of life. Everyone can see and feel that genuine type of love for something and it translates to all corners of the Earth (and now internet ;) )!

analog31• 8 years ago

Well, I'm far from being as knowledgeable as some folks on HN, but have a lot of factual knowledge about odd things. My only advice is curiosity and reading, notably about "real" subjects. That could include well written fiction. I don't plan to read about specific things, just let my brain be filled with lots of stuff.

Also when you see old people doing interesting work, talk to them if they don't mind it. At my current job, I made a point of talking with the old-timers about the technology, and gained a lot of practical knowledge that would otherwise be lost.

DannyBee3• 8 years ago

Where do you guys come from? How do you know all this stuff?

Same way as anyone else - we found something fun or interesting, we explored it more :)

If you do it long enough, it usually turns out eventually you are the expert.

kbenson• 8 years ago

I think people in general have diverse hobbies, and when combined with what's usually more than a passing knowledge of a lot of their parents' careers and hobbies, you end up with a very wide well of knowledge in any sizable group.

What makes HN special in my view is that people like to share that knowledge, and this is a very welcoming place to do so. I think the average HN user may be more open to learning new things (or at a minimum learning about new things). It's a great place to share that random trivia you know with a good chance someone will be appreciative.

KozmoNau72• 8 years ago

"How do you know all this stuff?"

I've sometimes been asked this from friends and colleagues, when I've talked about some subject that I happen to know something about, be it electronics or plumbing or bicycle repair or baking or sound mixing.

I absolutely do not claim to be an expert or master in any field, but I do have reasonable knowledge and familiarity, as well as an unceasing desire to learn more.

Being a "knowledge sponge" and constantly curious about the world is a hallmark of geekdom to me. As is the willingness to try, fail and try again, and learn from it.

My parents made sure to instill these values, so I was naturally helped into the geek mindset.

My mom is a teacher and naturally curious about everything, she's a popular science enthusiast, if such a thing exists.

My dad is what used to be called a "radio mechanic", and has never been afraid to take on DIY tasks of any kind, and involve me in them.

In general hobbies have always been important in my family. My uncle assembles his own racing bikes and has hand-built several wooden kayaks, just as an example.

Maybe not everyone has taken the same way into greatly expanded general knowledge, but I like to think a lot of us have this desire to learn new things.

The real trick is to know the limits of your knowledge, and to admit when you hit them ;-)

monochromatic2• 8 years ago

Riving is the right way to start if you’re making your own dowels too.

tripletmass• 8 years ago

Rive first, true the dowel later; use a trivial cylindrical hydraulic cavitation method, extract dowels...only what trivial method was that again? Packing group twice, cavitate once mon.

I suppose you take off your ring and stick it on one side of the branch, push it with a series of hardwood staves while a friend brakes the stock so that a density minimum always appears true, ahead of the ring, and then continue until the limit theorem packing fails to brake?

lostlogin2• 8 years ago

This must explain why so many broom handles are crap - they have been cut.

VBprogrammer• 8 years ago

My house built in around 1880 still has lath and plaster ceilings (wooden battens with plaster applied over the top of it). The lath is made from riven oak because it needs the strength at quite small dimensions.

PhasmaFelis• 8 years ago

It's also used today by "green woodworkers" - woodworkers who specialize in building using non-dried wood.

What's the advantage of that technique?

GlenTheMachine3• 8 years ago

The wood is stronger, as stated by several post above, because the wood fibers are intact all the way through the piece. This is important for chairs in particular, because they take quite large stresses for their size and weight. Apparently green wood is easier to carve as well - I don't have direct experience of that. And finally, it can be steamed and bent. That's how you get the curved wood pieces in chairs.

pavel_lishin• 8 years ago

I wish the photos were bigger - as someone who has no idea about woodworking, it's hard to tell what's actually going on in some of them.

curtis• 8 years ago

Planks created by riving can have a triangular cross-section rather than a rectangular cross-section. The first picture at http://lumberjocks.com/MattNC/blog/37466 is a good example.

dfc3• 8 years ago

You can create "rectangular boards" by riving too.

evasote• 8 years ago

http://www.greenwoodworking.com/RivingArticle

Jennie Alexander, an amazing woodworker who just passed away last week, wrote on this topic extensively. Check out her books 'Make a Chair from a Tree'

xbryanx• 8 years ago

Her profile on Lost Art Press is a fantastic read: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/05/25/meet-the-author-jen...

csours• 8 years ago

Fun fact, this is the same root as Riven.

wnoise• 8 years ago

Or rift.

arnarbi• 8 years ago

In Icelandic "rífa" is the common verb for "tear" (as in tearing things apart). Its plural middle voice [1] form is "rífast", literally "we tear ourselves", means to have an argument (as in a disagreement, not logic).

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/middle_voice

koverda• 8 years ago

Reminds me of a scene in "Happy People", a documentary about life in the Russian taiga, where the hunter fashioned a pair of skis by splitting a tree.

Link if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cPhWpprLmM

legulere• 8 years ago

The word ski even etymologically comes from a split piece of wood. The cognates in German (Scheit) and apparently also Icelandic (skið) and English (shide) actually still mean that.

(https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic...)

ProxCoques• 8 years ago

See also this technique in the making of an English longbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68L7n5Shd3I

jkraker• 8 years ago

If you want to go down the rabbit hole on cool old school woodworking techniques, check this out: http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/

NightlyDev• 8 years ago

Riving(rive) means tearing or splitting in Norwegian and English. The word comes from Old Norse and is commonly used in Norwegian, but I didn't know it also was an english word.

To me "I couldn't open it, so I had to rive it." sounds like Petter Solberg(known to mix norwegian and english) trying to speak english. "It's not the fart that kills, it's the smell" (fart meaning speed in norwegian, and smell meaning crash)

samstave2• 8 years ago

so would "rivendell" mean to "split a forest" or something along those lines?

danielvf• 8 years ago

A “dell” is a valley usually surrounded by woods, in English usage. I don’t think it means forrest.

wyattpeak• 8 years ago

Split valley[1]. The "deep valley of the cleft" reconstruction in the article feels a bit forced for Tolkien, but I can't see immediately that they weren't his words.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivendell#Etymology

KozmoNau72• 8 years ago

The Danish translation is "Kløvedal", literally "cleaved valley".

bagacrap• 8 years ago

If it is a word in English outside of a wood working context, it must be obsolete. I don't think you'd have much luck being understood if you slipped it into casual conversation.

agumonkey• 8 years ago

I wonder if there are people revisiting non powered 'machinery'. Instead of using your hands directly (which are probably super inefficient), why not make rail to guide the force ?

shriphani2• 8 years ago

I recently acquired a gransfors bruks axe for a sculpture I was working on - and I have discovered a newfound love for scandinavian woodworking tools. My arsenal is almost entirely Japanese but I might convert over the next few years.

exDM693• 8 years ago

How is the Granfors axe? I'm considering getting a right handed broad axe from them, but it is quite expensive. I have their froe and it seems to be great.

I'm contemplating either buying one from them or going to a blacksmithing course in Estonia to forge one myself. The price is about the same but doing it myself would give me new skills and experience.

jeromenerf2• 8 years ago

Great all around products from my experience.

They look and feel good, they are easy to sharpen, take a good edge. Most axes are made for green woodworking/soft wood and using them on hard seasoned wood may work and dull the edge fast though.

Hultafors, wetterlings and husqvarna also produce similar products in quality, sometimes cheaper. Granfors has a broader offer, when it comes to specialty tools, such as bearded axes.

shriphani2• 8 years ago

I have used a bunch of carving axes - nothing matches the gransfors.

lstodd• 8 years ago

You need wood that'd fit into your stove but only have (maybe fallen) trees around?

Well, duh. That's what you do. You cut it to the convinient length, take an ax and split 'em.

The crafts and stuff grow from that. How do you think boards were made before sawmills?

I mean, really, people were building log cabins for thousands of years before vikings. How do you think the logs were cleaned of bark and brought to more or less uniform diameter for that? This same technique and instruments.

Gustomaximus2• 8 years ago

The modern equivalent still common in Australia and probably other countries where you turn one log into 5 fence posts: https://youtu.be/rILXrWcav_Q

oh5nxo2• 8 years ago

Funny, I'm always knee deep in long shavings when cutting that way, much shorter knotty lumps which won't split with an axe. Matter of wood, or special chain perhaps? Birch, pine, spruce and normal cutting chain&teeth, in my case. Or maybe there is a non-obvious technique?

lostlogin2• 8 years ago

I’d be wanting chaps at a minimum. Kickback with cuts like that must be easy to achieve.

Gustomaximus2• 8 years ago

Not an expert but I'd suspect it's your timber choice. The specific tree is also important as you want a clean and straight trunk.

I'm Australia based so usual timber for this is; iron bark, jarrah, blackbutt and red gum. We have pine but I've never seen it used as split posts. Only round posts that have been treated.

exDM693• 8 years ago

I do this kind of woodworking as a hobby. A lot of the material I use has been riven or split from firewood or yard trees. I mostly use dry or half dry wood, but sometimes also green stuff.

It is a bit time consuming, but not that much when I take into account that I don't need to be transporting stuff to a sawyer and back home, then to a shop with jointers and planers and whatnot. I can do it all in my home shop with a handful of tools whenever I want.

Here's a gallery of a firewood project I made for a contest earlier this year: https://m.imgur.com/gallery/TCgqd

Riving, a Viking-age woodworking technique

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