The Chinese Car Invasion Is Coming

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-23/china-s-carmakers-want-to-dominate-world-s-next-era-of-driving

by j32fun • 8 years ago

43 85 8 years ago

FreakyT• 8 years ago

Interestingly, in Chile (and possibly other South American countries, perhaps someone else can weigh in) you can already buy Chinese car brands at dealers.

I was told that BYD vehicles are the cheapest option but also have terrible reliability.

thatfrenchguy• 8 years ago

Chile’s pretty fascinating because you can buy everything.

elvirs4• 8 years ago

Russia and I think all post Soviet countries. Turkey and most of the middle East countries are full of chinese cars. I think developed countries will lose the markets where they used to sell their older off lease cars to. Eastern European countries are literally Germany & France's junk yard. Looks like thats about to change

moltar3• 8 years ago

Not going to change for a bit. There’s still the fallout from Dieselgate. All of those cars are ending up for peanuts in Eastern Europe. My friend from Ukraine was quoting me insanely low prices for premium cars in Ukraine. And that’s with their super high tax rate.

Also, Eastern Europeans like to show off. Car is a major status symbol. Driving a Chinese car is a hair above driving a Soviet car. So anyone who can afford anything better will not buy it.

rlglwx• 8 years ago

Whenever you read an article like this ask yourself why it hasn’t happened yet. Geely, Great Wall and numerous other Chinese domestic brands have been operating for decades. Why haven’t they cracked the USA market?

The dealer network system in the United States.

floatrock• 8 years ago

The dealer network system in the United States.

So I get that franchising laws require dealers to be independent from manufacturers and they're up there with occupational licensing, but how exactly does that prevent a new manufacturer from entering the market?

I assume if you can raise a few billion to build a plant, kickstarting a bunch of new "independent" dealerships is just another line item you plan for...

seanmcdirmid2• 8 years ago

Tesla just bypassed the dealer system altogether.

nradov2• 8 years ago

Hyundai / Kia cracked the USA market and built their own franchise dealer networks not that long ago. So it's clearly possible as long as you're willing to invest enough and eat the losses for a while.

RaceWon6• 8 years ago

KIA and Hyundai win at the International level in racing and or rallying. That is still the key to selling cars. Ask Mercedes, ask Ferrari, or even Ford. As the saying goes; Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday .

I know I'm Old school, and some day in the Future self-driving cars MAY dominate the highways... but (thankfully) that day is not today.

pzone• 8 years ago

Then why don't you see them in Europe either?

osivertsson• 8 years ago

Probably due to strict safety and environmental regulations that gets stricter over time.

ch4ck• 8 years ago

But I see many new Volvo cars here...

gojomo• 8 years ago

Will it be dockless rent-by-the-minute electric hatchbacks on every block? Please let it be dockless rent-by-the-minute electric hatchbacks on every block.

bendbro• 8 years ago

What can you do with dockless rent by the minute hatchbacks on every block? Won't it be congested? Or is it more focused on medium density cities?

threeseed2• 8 years ago

This already exists today in many countries e.g. Australia.

Most of the cars aren't electric but some are.

beebmam• 8 years ago

If global markets aren't transforming China out of totalitarianism, then morally, shouldn't we stop assisting the economic development of China?

I'm horrified by some of the stories I've been told by my Chinese co-workers. Threats of violence to family members (for speaking freely) by the Chinese government is extremely common.

xevb3k2• 8 years ago

I think it’s something that should be considered, but it would be useful to provide more than anecdotal support. Are threats of violence really that common? What clear sources are there for that statement?

helloindia• 8 years ago

Heard of Google?

nichtich• 8 years ago

The usual. WaPo/NYTimes both did several stories like this. But keep in mind that one result of suppression of free speech is the lack of clear sources. So anecdotal is sometimes the best we got.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/world/asia/china-xinjiang...

tonyedgecombe2• 8 years ago

Perhaps it's because the end result would be both poverty and totalitarianism.

stretchwithme5• 8 years ago

Not necessarily. A country can be prosperous with no foreign trade.

Earth has no foreign trade and extreme poverty there fell by 50% between 2000 and 2012. China is not even an order of magnitude smaller.

CogitoCogito• 8 years ago

If global markets aren't transforming China out of totalitarianism, then morally, shouldn't we stop assisting the economic development of China?

I personally don't see any other way. Either it's this or exploitation. You shouldn't ignore the effects of your trading with China (and all countries). Doing so just legitimizes their actions and is entirely immoral.

yborg• 8 years ago

It's far too late for that. The real question is whether "global markets" will transform the US into a totalitarian state to better compete with China.

elvirs4• 8 years ago

America has killed quite a few million people during its delivering democracy to the desert adventures in just last one decade. Pretty sure its more than what Chinese have done by a magnitude of 10x. Have you considered consuming less American made products?

woolvalley• 8 years ago

The great leap forward would like to talk to you.

RaceWon6• 8 years ago

Consider consuming less USA products? Hmm... No, never, not at all. The truth is no one knows How many people have been killed in China. Another truth is: I can sit here in NY and say Trump is an Idiot who should be Impeached because he is AN ASS and wake up safe and sound in the morning. Try that in China and let me know how that works out for ya.

FreeTradeMess5• 8 years ago

So we should boycott american companies for the democracy seeking missions of our government How does that make sense? If you don't like what our leaders are doing, vote and campaign for someone else. That isn't an option for the Chinese people (at least not for those who like to live). The government will only change if they feel a pain in their pocketbook.

phil248• 8 years ago

The American president made violent threats to a woman he had an affair with. He suggested people beat up protesters at his rallies. He frequently attacks the free press, judicial system, law enforcement and minority religious and ethnic groups.

And that's just the president. What about US incarceration rates, use of the death penalty and racial bias in law enforcement? Or the frequent, devastating use of military force on populations all over the planet.

I'm not equivocating, just stating some facts that may offer perspective on your suggestion that we diminish the living standards of 1.3 billion people because their government is terrible in different ways than our own.

boznz2• 8 years ago

Good luck buying ANYTHING either not made in China or having parts made in China, that ship has well and truly sailed.

FreeTradeMess5• 8 years ago

This is a very fair point. There are so many things that go unmentioned when discussing the consequences (current and long term) of globalism. Particularly a nation state such as China.

Here are a few I can think of:

1. Mass global pollution. Not only transporting materials, but largely unregulated environmental destruction. What would the pollution levels look like today without NAFTA ETC? I muse at how the most ardent environmentalists (pushing for environmental regulation in California ETC) are also often the biggest globalists. A clean planet and Globalism have been proven in the last 25 years to be mutually exclusive.

2. The morality issue that was raised. We have unions and social justice warriors in this country fighting for higher minimum wage, living wage, cheap/free health care, open borders to refugees and any in need, Freedoms of every sort. Politicians run campaigns and voters vote for people because of this stuff, yet they buy 80% of their merchandise from countries that treat their people like human garbage and 20+% of their produce and services from companies employing illegals (who treat them like garbage). What does that say about us? We are virtue seeking people, which boycotting China and other groups doesn't currently recognize? Do we only fight for peoples rights and well being when it won't cost us cheap crap from Walmart or cause the businessman that exploitative but lucrative offshore business. Or do we care only about the plight of US Minorities, but not the far worse off people in China. Our poorest 10% are far freer and better off economically and medically than 90% of them you know? Don't start stating fabricated census garbage to me. I am close friends with people who grew up there and have heard first hand how poor most factory workers are there. Every US citizen with half a heart should be appalled and demanding that we boycott China until they start to treat their people with a shred of human dignity. Their leaders see the citizens there as nothing more than disposable drones who's only mission is to deliver ever more power to the top.

3. We have enabled China to become a world power. People laugh at the thought of China being a military threat to the US. Are you kidding? Do you know the raw manufacturing power of that country? Do you realize that the next war will be fought and won with Drones? (in the millions or perhaps tens of millions). So who do you think can outlast the other? Manufacturing and innovation has always won wars. Good segway...

4. Innovation and intellectual property. So I don't know if you have noticed this, but all of our technology seems to leak out and end up all over China. They clone everything. Are they just really good at reverse engineering things? Well yes, but often they steal (helped by their own government) from us (high tech espionage). They produce counterfeits that compete with out own designed products and flood our own market with them. They even combine stolen research and create superior products to ours. They stole Nuke technology from us for crying out loud, and we just shrugged... Why can't we hold them accountable for these things? When Google was over there, they tried to steal all of their tech at the time. They do it to everybody. When it comes to dealings with other countries, they are lawless. Their own government conspires against us along with wealthy business owners.

5. They manipulate their own currency to force out factories out of existence. Since they don't care about how impoverished their work force is, they can outlast any competitor. Many factories move abroad because of this (just to compete).

6. Since we pay them with American currency, they often buy up our countries bonds, companies, real estate, ETC. How is it good that we have become so dependent on a rouge and untrustworthy, immoral state who owns much of our property and debt?

Is it really worth all that cheap crap we have sitting around in our closets, attics and garages (not to mention landfills) for all of this?

Someone please tell me all the benefits of globalism (particularly with China). Make a convincing argument FOR globalism please.

jeffbax• 8 years ago

1. "A clean planet and Globalism have been proven in the last 25 years to be mutually exclusive."

Actually, the environment is what gets cleaned up as people are lifted out of poverty (which globalism accomplishes better than anything else). See reforestation of Europe, the post-industrial USA, and now even China tackling a severe pollution problem. People need the ability to provide food before they worry about the rest.

2. "We have unions and social justice warriors in this country fighting for higher minimum wage, living wage, cheap/free health care, open borders to refugees and any in need, Freedoms of every sort"

Unions began as (fairly racist) mechanisms for preventing labor competition and thus artificially high wages. Minimum wage is not a national issue and causing problems in a lot of places trying to push it too high too fast (and another mechanism, like unions that keep out other laborers / raise the cost of production, that will help some and really punish those kept out).

"Cheap/free healthcare" as I'm guessing you perceive it to be, is more likely pushing the costs higher in a lot of ways through market distortions. US healthcare suffers extreme cost disease as SSC would say, but the cause is primarily driven by government encouraging consumption and restricting supply (similar to housing in major cities)

No idea what you mean about open borders, but it's not generally the left pushing for that. Sanders' platform was rooted in nativism and economic fantasy, like Trump's (cue "Bernie would have won!")

If we care about the poor in China, or elsewhere, we will trade with them and let them plug into the global economy. Period. The last 50-70 years have lifted people out of poverty at an unprecedented rate in human history because of the globalism you decry. Your anecdotes about however difficult factory life might be do not change the reality that the people there have overwhelmingly voted with their feet to take those jobs over the old ones in the field. Change takes time, and holding poorer nations to the strict standards of the first world is counter-productive, cruel, and unawares.

3. "We have enabled China to become a world power. People laugh at the thought of China being a military threat to the US. Are you kidding?"

I don't think anyone takes that lightly, certainly not the Pentagon. Still, the US is flush with natural resources, still ahead technologically though that is certainly changing fast and a better trading partner with the world. They still have the upper hand. US manufacturing output has also never been more productive than today, so the "death" of it is overblown. There are fewer jobs because we're able to do more with less, thanks technology.

4. "Their own government conspires against us along with wealthy business owners."

Certainly a problem, hopefully our country takes cybersecurity seriously. Still, you want a globalized China because that's the only way to influence them. Trade makes war unlikely, unlike the opposite.

5. "Since they don't care about how impoverished their work force is, they can outlast any competitor."

Tell that to the SE Asian economies that are stealing a lot of work from Chinese factories these days?

6. "How is it good that we have become so dependent on a rouge and untrustworthy, immoral state who owns much of our property and debt?"

That… doesn't make much sense. They're investing here and abroad, which is generally a good thing. If you haven't noticed, it isn't like the US Government isn't willing to pull things like keeping their tech out of US telecom and such if it need to. If you think an increasingly wealthy country of 1.6 billion people will be prevented from investing globally, its simply nuts.

"Is it really worth all that cheap crap we have sitting around in our closets, attics and garages"

If you haven't noticed, goods from there and many other developing countries are no longer "cheap crap", it also means that US consumer dollars go much farther. US citizens get more for less, and can allocate more resources away from spending on necessities (or deal with the rising healthcare benefit costs often depressing their wage growth -- though thats another problem)

TLDR: Argument for globalism "Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years"

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-bil...

We won't fix poverty in places by not engaging with them. You don't fix problems w/ governments in India, Africa etc by not engaging with them b/c they don't meet your standard of virtue today. Despite the surveillance state, China in particular is certainly far freer today in 2018 than it was when Mao was murdering 40 million people, and I'd rather that trend continue steadily, if slowly -- just like elsewhere in the world.

You can't just flip a switch, and alienating governments has a pretty poor track record of changing any minds.

hungerstrike• 8 years ago

Did you ever wonder who created this tyrannical technological monster of a government? I don't think a bunch of Chinese farmers did. The British basically conquered China in the Opium Wars and they owned Hong Kong for 150 years.

It seems to me that external powers have built China into what it is today. Mao Zhedong was installed by a group working through Yale, home of the Skull and Bones. They put him in charge of propaganda and you can see their own article about it here - http://digital.library.yale.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collectio...

Mao went on to murder somewhere between 70 and 100 million Chinese people who threatened the new communist government. Western media never talks about that.

Every nation has given up their technology to China one way or the other. Bill Clinton was accused and tried for selling nuclear secrets to them. Israel regularly funnels military technology to China. So where's this going?

My opinion: This is your next world government, built by shadowy figures who are constantly at work to own every aspect of you life.

liberte823• 8 years ago

It was all well and good when we were getting good cheap Chinese goods. Now that China is rising, we've all suddenly become humanitarians.

mc32• 8 years ago

While Chinese cars will prove to be worthy competitors to American (and European) domestic MFGS --I imagine the threat to Japanese and Korean manufacturers in overseas markets will be very significant, since many of those markets don't have a "domestic brand" they have an affinity to.

doesnt_know2• 8 years ago

I didn't know this was controversial in any way, they've been in the Oceania market for some time.

My wife and I own a Chery J3, purchased it new. It came with a 3 year mechanical warranty plus other benefits for like half the price of a Japanese car.

I mean, it's pretty obviously catering for the "budget" market, it is literally the cheapest new car you can buy in the country. But it has suited our needs and we're actually a bit attached to the stupid thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chery

seanmcdirmid2• 8 years ago

I think Chinese cars have been in markets like Australia for awhile now, as well awards developing markets. I don’t think they’ve been present anywhere else however. There was a scandal in Australia a few years ago with I think BYD or Chery lowering their standards after crash test approval.

2RTZZSro4• 8 years ago

The crash tests are already abysmal I cannot imagine how dangerous this car is if they actually lowered their safety standards after the test.

tschwimmer• 8 years ago

Can you talk a bit more about your experience with the car? How much did it cost, how reliable has it been, what are your most and least favorite things about it?

2RTZZSro4• 8 years ago

The Chery J3 costs just as much as the Japanese car if not more. The catch is when you crash you pay with your life. The J3 has very poor body integrity in an accident. It should be pulled from all markets immediately. If you value life you should immediately get rid of this car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naUWH8Scc80

ummonk• 8 years ago

Huh. The low rating confuses me from watching that video. To my not that experienced eye, the main issue seems to be the airbag not expanding sufficiently. The car seems to have done a good job of crumpling to absorb the impact without deforming too much inside the cabin itself.

Edit: okay the main issue is described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5RWnocukG8 The steering wheel gets pushed into the driver's chest.

doesnt_know2• 8 years ago

Are you sure you're describing the same car as I am? It's called a J3 in my country, but appears to be labelled differently internationally. It's also a 2016 model.

Chery A3, M11, Cielo etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chery_A3

The Chery J3 costs just as much as the Japanese car if not more.

You're really not correct on this. Some of the budget Japanese models come close, they are between 5-7k more in local currency. The popular "standard" Japanese models really are twice the price. The South Korean "Kia" is probably the close in terms of pricing/competition.

Have a look through the AA new car price list:

https://www.aa.co.nz/cars/buying-a-car/car-buying-guide/new-...

We're talking 16k NZD for the Cherry compared to anywhere between 22k - 32k for Japanese models. Maybe you could find some random model that comes close, but we couldn't "out in the wild" when we were shopping.

sunstone• 8 years ago

It may be coming but it's unlikely to be coming to North America, Europe and India any time soon. After having been forced to turn over their technology to China to enter its market these countries are not willingly going to turn around and buy that technology back in their own markets.

adrianN• 8 years ago

Good. Maybe some real competition can shake up the established car manufacturers. Right now they have to be forced by the government to modernize their lineup wrt emissions. I can't wait for cheap Chinese EVs in inner cities.

grecy• 8 years ago

When it came to Australia it essentially forced the closure of the Ford and Holden (GM) vehicle design and factories.

You can buy a brand new Chinese car with a 3 year warranty for less than the depreciation on a new Ford/GM/Toyota would be in 2 years.

So after 3 years you can literally drive the Chinese vehicle to the dump and buy another one, and you're still up financially.

Reviews so far say they're cheap, you get what you pay for, but they work and are reliable enough.

threeseed2• 8 years ago

This isn't what happened at all.

The decline of Australian car makers was entirely a result of consumers favouring (a) European car makers e.g. Mercedes and (b) smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

People just don't want large, 4 door sedan cars with V8 5L engines, a comparatively lower class brand and a less than luxurious interior.

gkanai2• 8 years ago

they're cheap, you get what you pay for, but they work and are reliable enough.

Chinese vehicles are not as safe in accidents as those cars which have had a longer time to engineer safety technologies. Also the price point of most Chinese cars do now allow for addition of safety technologies at the level of most other non-Chinese vehicles.

Same thing with the upcoming COMAC Chinese-made airplanes. You do not want to fly those planes when they finally hit the market.

boznz2• 8 years ago

Ford, BMW, VW, Volvo, etc already manufacture cars in China, and with 50% to 100% Chinese ownership its pretty obvious the next generation of Chinese cars are going to have the same level of refinement and safety as these (because, well Fuck IP rights) and at about half the price

dnomad• 8 years ago

I've noticed Australians and many others will go out of their way to not buy Chinese-made. It's a bit crazy. People, especially some Chinese themselves in certain cities, will go out of their way to spend a bunch of many on expensive Japanese and American cars when you can get a an equivalent Chinese vehicle for literally a third of the price. You've got to hand it to the car companies, they've done a very, very good job convincing people that their car is a status symbol just as important as their house.

hvidgaard2• 8 years ago

If it's 1/3 of the price, I'm 100% sure it's not even remotely as safe. I don't buy many cars, but spend enough time in them that safety matters to me. That some Chinese avoid them when they can is very telling about the cars.

rmason• 8 years ago

If China was serious they'd market solely electric cars to get a toehold in the American market.

I can hear a dealer now telling a prospect, you can wait another two years for a Model 3 or buy ours and drive it home tonight. There's a pent up demand for battery powered cars under $40K.

A Chinese SUV? It would have to be rather compelling to take a chance.

stretchwithme5• 8 years ago

I'll stick with Japanese cars. I've been driving Toyotas for 35 years. And they're an ally.

My hope is that China will moderate and become less authoritarian and less of a threat to its neighbors. Most countries have over time.

And I hope the US will be less involved in foreign military adventures. There's no doubt in my mind that much of what dictators do is driven by what we do.

I also believe that trade helps prevent war. We tend to not go to war with countries with whom we have many profitable relationships.

gkanai2• 8 years ago

My hope is that China will moderate and become less authoritarian and less of a threat to its neighbors.

That Xi just took power until his death means that this is not happening in China.

latch• 8 years ago

less of a threat to its neighbors

Doesn't China have a exceedingly good record here? Quick googling suggest it has had no major (and certainly no unilateral) military conflicts in the last 30 years. Military build up seems reasonable given the situation in Korea, Pakistan and India, the growing isolation of Russia, and America's continued military "adventures." It's claims in the south china sea do seem out of character, but we live in a world where might is right.

arvinjoar• 8 years ago

You can't look only at track record. Afaik they have an unreasonable amount of infantry for purely defensive purposes. They're #3 globally in terms of firepower, of course they won't create trouble until they're reasonably sure they'll come out ahead. Once they're more powerful economically and militarily you'll have a an unscrupulous nation, with a dictator for life, capable of very long-term planning, leading a pretty explicitly racist people in need of massive amounts of natural resources.

So yeah, even though they're not currently adventurous militarily, I wouldn't count on that being the case forever.

2RTZZSro4• 8 years ago

No, it's not. Chinese cars will not pass US safety regulations for a long time and at a high cost.

moltar3• 8 years ago

Of course they will. The reason they are not safe is not because they don’t know how to make a safe car. It’s because the requirements were not there before. Why build it safer at an expense, if you don’t have to.

Montréal company is already in the process of importing BYD electric cars for taxis.

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/03/05/teo-taxi-aura-un...

Our rules in Canada are just as strict as in US. So if they can do it - anyone can do it.

Theodores• 8 years ago

In big Chinese cities it costs you the equivalent of many thousands of dollars to get a licence plate. Without that city plate you cannot drive in the city during rush hour, you have to have a city plate.

Typically electric cars and plug in hybrids are exempt from the scheme. This means that if you live in Shenzen and want to get around then you can see if you win the lottery of licence plates and are allowed to pay $10K to join the club, or you just get an electric car.

The electric cars are better than the old fashioned cars with better ride quality due to the battery weight, better turning circles due to no huge motor between the front wheels, spritely acceleration off the line (if not at highway speeds), plus silence when waiting at the lights. This is a civilised experience and people don't go back to noisy motors with 'stick shift' involvement in driving. Much like how people did not go back to the horse when the car came along. A cheap basic car is better than a horse with fluffy cushions.

China are leading the way on this electric car revolution, they are doing great with their domestic market and when the rest of the world goes electric the Chinese brands will have quite an advantage.

In Europe a lot of fanfare was made about Jaguar and their electric SUV, which is not out yet. It will be contract manufactured by Magna in Graz Austria, not made in Jaguar's own factory in Birmingham.

The Nissan Leaf (new version) is a car well suited to Western markets and built by Nissan/Renault rather than outsourced. A very nice product, as is the BMW i3, but it seems that the Chinese really have a better product for the market - affordable!

Tesla have shown that car interiors do not have to be 'luxury leather' with a massive console thing, dashboard resembling a radiogram from the 1950's, silly carpets everywhere topped out with chintzy bling trim.

The budget Chinese cars have none of the 'luxury trim' with hard plastics everywhere. However the experience is actually civilised, no noise, no rattles, lots of interior space. So owners are quite willing to forget the fluffier aspects of old fashioned cars.

There is no range anxiety either, if you are going to drive all day to get somewhere you just get a plane instead and get your day back.

astkaasa• 8 years ago

Just to be clear, Shanghai is the one and only city where license plate cost thousands of dollars.

rasz2• 8 years ago

sure http://www.eyeshenzhen.com/content/2017-12/27/content_181168...

amriksohata• 8 years ago

You have to love how threatened people feel by China rising, words like "invasion" and "human rights". How do we think The United States rose or Britain? When they became the biggest superpowers? Just look at the migration of Europeans into the Wild West and how they took the Natives land from them, or the slave trade etc. I'm not saying that makes them any better, but it's just odd how we sometimes perceive ourselves better just because now after all those years we are trying to teach the world our mistakes but oh no you're not allowed to grow!

thisisit• 8 years ago

Does anyone know how much of current US/European cars use Chinese parts? I think if current car manufacturers are already dependent on Chinese parts, then we are not having much of an "invasion" really.

rasz2• 8 years ago

Tesla does, alu profiles are from China.

The Chinese Car Invasion Is Coming

Related Stories