Ask HN: Would you employ a developer who talks to himself during work?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1678638

by mattjung • 16 years ago

22 44 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I know this question might sound bizarre. I have never met someone in my career talking to himself in front of his computer until recently and puzzled myself about the reasons and the impact on his work...

lee• 16 years ago

Is he doing some kind of rubber duck debugging? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

I don't talk to myself, but sometimes by simply talking aloud about my problems to my peers I can flesh out a solution to a hard problem.

I have seen other programmers talk to themselves to find a solution when they're stuck, and it seems to work quite well.

mattjung2• 16 years ago

Nice link!

asdfghjkjnmhb2• 16 years ago

>The process is to meticulously explain code to an inanimate object

Isn't that what students are for?

brandnewlow• 16 years ago

What tends to happen with me is I'll hit a snag that I can't seem to figure out or debug myself. So I fire up gmail and write a note to one of the contractors who does odds and ends stuff for me.

I describe the problem in decent detail and ask when he/she is available to fix it. Send.

Then a few minutes later, the solution appears in my head, I go solve the problem myself, and send an apology note to my developer.

evilduck• 16 years ago

I do this too, but I've found that I don't usually need to hit send, I just save it as a draft then go take a walk. The answer usually comes to me when I come back, but if it doesn't I'll send it.

The act of explaining it in enough detail so another person could understand the problem usually increases my understanding of the problem.

madhouse• 16 years ago

Yes, I would. Thinking out loud helps a lot in my experience - and that's what most people perceive as "talking to himself".

noodle• 16 years ago

this would be an incidental, to me. perhaps it would be annoying, but i don't feel like it would necessarily impact his actual work.

Manolis• 16 years ago

Since the question refers to a developer (a special category of employees) the answer is a strong "Yes".

ra• 16 years ago

Absolutely. I'm a developer who has hired 15-20 other developers in my time. "talks to himself" isn't a reason not to hire a nice, talented developer.

retroafroman2• 16 years ago

I wouldn't. At one job, the desks were arranged so that I sat at my computer with my back to my coworker (who talked to himself/no-one-in-particular/me throughout the day) and I could never tell when he was trying to talk to me or just vocalizing something. Also, I found it annoying. A small annoyance, sure, but if it bothers your other developer's, it's not a good idea.

icefox• 16 years ago

Well if you were doing the hiring I am guessing you can also set the seating.

retroafroman2• 16 years ago

Good point, as long as it is possible to place the self-talker in a place where others aren't bothered, whether that's alone, or with people who aren't bothered, it wouldn't be too bad.

sofuture• 16 years ago

I wouldn't consider it a factor in an employment decision unless it was exceptional in some way (i.e. it was non-stop, extremely loud, disruptive).

mattjung2• 16 years ago

In fact, I was wondering if someone who needs to talk out loud has a different approach of solving problems or if he has even has some shortcomings given that he is not able to keep things in his mind. When children learn reading at school, the first step is to read loud, then to understand what they read out loud. It takes considerably more efforts until a child is able to understand a text she is reading silently.

DirtyAndy• 16 years ago

That is certainly an interesting way to look at people talking to themselves, definitely correct with children. Personally I talk to myself a lot when working at home, and never when in an office (it is rude and distracting for other people). I think I do much better work at home, especially when trying to solve problems. For some reason saying something out loud can often make it clearer, easy to see something stupid you've done etc.

In theory anything you can do in a meeting, talking with others, can be done in email, but IMHO well run meetings are a very good way of bringing ideas together, solving problems etc. Talking to yourself is like having a meeting with yourself :-)

cobralibre• 16 years ago

Silent reading is a historically contingent practice, and did not become typical until the early middle ages, when reading aloud began to be banned in Christian scriptoriums. Whether this was done for pragmatic or religious reasons, I don't know.

jarek2• 16 years ago

Do you also think someone who draws out diagrams on a whiteboard rather than visualizing everything in their head has a "shortcoming"?

Not everyone thinks the same way. This isn't a bug.

jdietrich• 16 years ago

Will he get a private office?

marcusbooster• 16 years ago

At least I know he's focused on his work. As opposed to say writing an Ask HN about it.

varjag• 16 years ago

I would, since I do it myself. Infrequently actually, but a lot of it is swearing.

robgough• 16 years ago

If they were working from home, sure :P

I can't see it impacting on their work, but it might irritate others.

There is an obvious second question though, how would you know before you employed them. The question then becomes, would you fire an developer that talks to themselves at work.

In which case, No - I probably wouldn't. At least not without trying to find other ways of dealing with it, it is possible they don't even know they're doing it - and after making them aware you might find that they stop.

mhd• 16 years ago

Probably not, if he's doing that all the time, the office is shared, he does it in different voices and/or uses the Black Speech of Mordor.

Other than that, why not? When I'm behind closed doors, I sometimes to this myself, too. Giving thoughts proper form often helps to order them, so both writing and monologue are perfectly fine. That's what some people get out of pair programming.

SanjayUttam• 16 years ago

It depends. If they are talking and it is barely audible, sure...I do this, and with the exceptional expletive, it's more or less silent. Most of the developers here, myself included, wear headphones for the day unless we're talking to one another. I don't think anyone even notices I'm mouthing things to myself or reading "out-loud" (e.g., moving my mouth).

Not totally related, but I'm also bobbing my head to music all day (usually groovesalad on some.fm)

All that said...how would you know if you're going to hire someone who talks to themselves anyway, or is this just hypothetical?

smutticus• 16 years ago

Talking to yourself is fine. It's when you start responding to yourself that you should be worried.

abyssknight• 16 years ago

This is funny, but I respond to my own questions all the time. Often out of sync with the timeline of events, too. I'll remember an answer and answer my question from 10 minutes ago all while discussing it with myself. ;)

asdfghjkjnmhb2• 16 years ago

Self correcting - first you talk to yourself, then you start answering yourself, then you argue with yourself - then you sulk and stop talking to you.

jarek2• 16 years ago

Do you accommodate other preferences of the developer? Do you let them adjust their chair or rearrange their desk? Do you let them come in at flex hours, as long as the work is done and they don't unduly inconvenience others (meetings, etc)? Do you let them wear headphones at work? Do you let them choose their preferred editor (again, as long as it doesn't inconvenience others) or perhaps even OS?

If so, why would you not accommodate someone who works slightly differently in this one way?

wccrawford• 16 years ago

No. I worked with a guy who did this. I didn't have to sit at the desk next to him, but the guy who did... Well, he absolutely hated it.

It's also quite a bit different than 2 people talking, or even someone talking on the phone.

I think a quiet workplace is very important for proper thinking.

zackattack2• 16 years ago

Talking to yourself is a symptom of stress. Because your working memory is too populated by stressors in order to keep the entire "conversation" inside your head, you externalize it. Think of it as paging out. The only inconvenience is that it can bother people. Well, maybe there are other inconveniences, too, but I'm not aware of any studies that suggest externalized verbal problem solving creates worse results than internalized problem solving, though I suspect it actually might be the case.

jazzyb• 16 years ago

> Talking to yourself is a symptom of stress.

Not always. I talk to myself all the time whether I'm happy, sad, stressed, relaxed, whatever. I just seem to solve problems better when I explain them to myself out loud -- see "rubber ducking": http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubberDucking

zackattack2• 16 years ago

I agree that rubber ducking is a great technique. I also think that you can "have" both stress and the subjective affective state of happiness simultaneously.

klaut• 16 years ago

I talk to myself during work most of the time (but usually it happens in the privacy of my head only). Or better, I talk to the monitor in front of me as if it would help debug something faster :) ... well sometimes it does, actually. But when i become very frustrated with the piece of code i am debugging, I usually say something out loud as well.... swearing mostly :D

jasonmcalacanis• 16 years ago

if they file clean code, solve problems, are positive in their nature and make the people around them great they can marry their their iPad.

some of the best people startup people, at least in my experience, are "unique."

Embrace the odd, create the future.

chrischen2• 16 years ago

I talk to myself, even when not working. So yes. He's just special.

Sometimes if you're eager to say something to real people, you may talk to yourself (ADHD people do it). If you're standing right there and he's talking to himself, then he either doesn't know you're there, or it's just helping him think.

j_baker• 16 years ago

Erm... I have ADHD and I don't do it.

chrischen2• 16 years ago

Well there are different types of ADHD. It's related to the fact that ADHD people have bad working memory. So practicing how they would say stuff is a way to get it out before they forget it.

agotterer• 16 years ago

Sometimes people with dislexia or other reading problems will read aloud. Sometimes, the only way they can process the content is by hearing it.

tzs• 16 years ago

We had an employee once who essentially narrated himself. For instance, if he was installing the latest build of our software to test the installer, he might say something like this:

    I'm putting the floppy in the drive. I see it on the
    desktop. I'm double clicking it. I see the new
    installer. Now I'm opening RegEdit. I'm finding the
    keys for $OurProduct, and deleting them to test a fresh
    install. Now I'm double clicking the installer. I see
    a dialog box. I'm typing in my product key, and hitting
    the install button...

If you had to do anything with him, he'd include you in the narration:

    OK, now I'm watching Bob make a new release for me to test.
    His compile finished, and he's copying to a floppy. He's
    giving me the floppy. I'm going to go test it...

This got real annoying real fast.

runjake2• 16 years ago

Wow, that's hilarious. Any chance he was taking voice notes to a device?

markbnine• 16 years ago

Sounds like the newest in agile techniques - pair programming for one. Write a book and start your consulting career now.

niels_olson• 16 years ago

Depends. At the best, you're being paranoid. At the worst, he could be developing schizophrenia. Is he in his late teens or early twenties, does he sound agitated or paranoid? Is his thought process coherent? What is he talking about? A young, paranoid male talking gibberish to himself without regard for who's around would be concerning. If you want a great portrait of schizophrenia, watch "The Soloist": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0821642/

But if he's not acting like that, then maybe he's just helping you expand your definition of normal.

runjake2• 16 years ago

You know of good developers who don't?

I mean, as long as he isn't muttering about red staplers or burning the office down, what's the issue?

basicxman• 16 years ago

There's a difference between delusional psychosis, being socially awkward, and talking to yourself to debug computer problems. However, some might believe it to be a very thin line between psychosis and debugging computer problems aloud.

julius_geezer• 16 years ago

Sure.

Ask HN: Would you employ a developer who talks to himself during work?

Related Stories