Ask HN: Strategies for database reliability when I have no control over the DB?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16728569

by grepthisab • 8 years ago

73 33 8 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Working in a corporate enterprise type environment. Very crufty. Unfortunately my application environment, which is very modern, relies on an old, old corporate DB. I have spoken with the dbadmins and they are not willing to help out to make things more reliable, they're pretty siloed off from everything else and don't answer to anyone to help. The team has no SLOs and the best I can see is about 90% uptime. In the end this may be a policy question, but for the short term I need to manage reliability of my applications so I can hit my SLOs.

So from my perspective, how do I manage this? Back up the DBs in my environment as best as possible and serve traffic from there, or cache everything? Data is constantly being added to the old DB, which holds user data. I was thinking about creating a bunch of DB shards in my environment with LBs in front of them with long-lived connections to the old DB, and if the user makes a request, if the old DB is down, serve from the backup shard. Maybe sharding is too complicated for this scenario. Advice?

babygoat• 8 years ago

Oh man, I totally relate to your environment and dilemma.

Too complicated or not, if you can get away with it I would do the sharding project for the fun/experience/learning.

divbait• 8 years ago

(as long as it's not customer critical - at least setting something like this up would be a fun weekend project :) )

wbl• 8 years ago

This is a management problem. You need to say "we cannot meet our SLOs and depend on a database that doesn't have SLOs of its own".

scarmig• 8 years ago

1) SLO improvement should be a negotiation that must include management. It's a resourcing decision. What things are enabled by it, and at what cost? Though, TBH it sounds like even if they were mandated to achieve a certain SLO, you couldn't trust them to achieve it or correctly measure if they're achieving it. If it did get to that point, you would want to be closely involved in defining how the SLO is measured.

1b) Where are your SLOs even coming from? If the db team offers no SLO, you have no business offering one yourself, or if you do it needs to be something that takes into account observed backend reliability, not something imposed by a pointy-haired boss.

2) I'm skeptical about the sharding solution. If the data you're using doesn't need to be shared across teams, consider just setting up your own db.

3) Aggressive caching and prefetching might improve the end user experience.

4) Graceful degradation. Build your UIs such that if one call to the DB fails, it only breaks a minimal part of the page, not everything.

This sounds more like an organizational issue, though. The most value you could provide to the company sounds like it'd be breaking through those institutional barriers. More likely than not you'd try and fail (nature of these things, not a knock on you), but it's worth a shot.

protomyth• 8 years ago

This isn't a technical problem to be solved with shards, plus you do not want to have to answer those questions if something goes wrong (e.g. security).

What specifically did you ask for when you say "they are not willing to help out to make things more reliable"?

If the corporate DB has 90% uptime then you need to tell your boss and internal customers that the max limit of uptime is that 90% figure. If that is not acceptable then your manager needs to deal with the db team manager. I am a little confused on how an old DB only rates 90% since mainframes and iSeries boxes are way above that. How modern your application environment is or how crufty the enterprise db is irrelevant to any talks between teams.

lsb• 8 years ago

You can do this! It is a little work.

It sounds like you are able to deploy your own infra, and it sounds like you are not making any writes to the db.

These two factors make the app significantly easier, versus needing to hold writes (and deal with reads to that augmented database) until the backing db comes back online. (CRDTs are a nice way of expressing growing a database over time, but an old old corporate DB sounds like some mess in SQL.)

The main principle is that you're going to serve queries from your own system, and your system is informed by $OLD_DB. You're going to have, ultimately, a `last_updated_at` attribute on everything you know.

You're going to, ultimately, stream all of $OLD_DB into $NEW_DB. If a DB query to $OLD_DB is over HTTP, then the query bodies are a bit larger and slightly ungainly and very easy to cache; by sticking a caching proxy in front of that HTTP endpoint and telling it to keep EVERYTHING and serve stale content and looking at the headers that come back, now you have database queries that can be as stale as necessary.

mratzloff• 8 years ago

The central question to answer is whether your boss is held responsible for failure to meet the SLA or whether you alone are.

Assuming your boss is held responsible, I would design the system to treat the database like an unreliable API. Wrap up all operations in a DAL and interact with a local database. Do regular transactional sync operations in the background. In case of data conflict, determine who wins and why in each case.

Don't spend too much time on the design. Just enough to get the point across.

Bring the design to your boss and say this is what I'm thinking given that we have an SLA but this critical dependency does not and has an observed uptime of 90%. And then let your boss decide what to do.

If you are the only one who will be held responsible and your boss doesn't support your design or go to bat for you, you work in a bad environment and should find a new job.

mindcrash• 8 years ago

Capture changes at the old db and stream them to your own database (if possible).

Here's how to do this with Kafka and Postgres: https://www.confluent.io/blog/bottled-water-real-time-integr...

ecesena• 8 years ago

I'd try the sharding route. Check out Vitess (https://vitess.io), hopefully it works in your case, otherwise you can seek for similar alternatives. It's a proxy that 1) makes sharding transparent, and 2) protects the db from bad queries. If you set this up for your app, perhaps later you can convince other apps to switch to it, improving the quality of the db overall.

A few other comments would be:

- do you have a read replica where you can do read-only queries? If not, that's also a good way to alleviate the burden on the primary db.

- would cache make sense? do you read often the same data and do joins every time? if so, I'd also consider a caching layer.

wilhempujar• 8 years ago

I agree with many of the responses here and it makes sense to design your applications around the database limitations... But at the end of the day, it's a service level management issue.

While it's easy to understand the bias to look for solutions without the aforementioned DBA, it's going to take a pretty significant, collaborative effort to define policies that works for all stakeholders.

The sooner the better! It's going to be a bit painful but I'd focus on addressing the root of the issue at hand.

My two cents :)

thaumaturgy• 8 years ago

I've recently had to deal with a sort of similar environment, though for different reasons.

I ended up setting up a persistent ssh tunnel to the production server with autossh, and then writing a miniature daemon that would regularly poll tables in the production server, figure out recent changes, and write the changes to a log. A secondary process would read the log and copy the changes into the development environment.

By "regularly", I mean that it ran every minute.

autossh was used to keep the resident sysadmin from complaining about thousands of ssh logins. It also made the first daemon a little easier to write, since from its perspective, it was still connecting to a local database.

This worked surprisingly well. It wasn't fiddly or glitchy at all. Anytime there was a connection problem, things would stall for at most a few minutes until autossh could re-establish the connection, and then the reading daemon would happily work its way backward through the tables.

Essentially this is just building out a master -> slave database relationship, but with application logic instead of reconfiguring the DB environment. It didn't require a very large time investment to get it working.

mooreds• 8 years ago

As others have pointed out, this is really two problems. The first is an organizational one, and is more important to solve. Why can't you get better uptime? Why can't the corporate db be upgraded? I think you need to explore those issues first and figure out if there's a way forward to solve the root issue. This should be a discussion including the dbas and whoever your SLO is to, and probably your boss. Address these issues with minimal blame and focus on what success looks like for the organization. Maybe the old db has been unsuccessfully upgraded in the past and the dbas need more resources. Maybe your app isn't as important as keeping the old db running. Who knows?

If you can't reach a political solution, then you can add a band-aid with a technical solution. Just realize that this is only a patch and that in a few years someone (perhaps you) will be cursing the creator for not fixing the root issue.

You didn't specify if your app only reads from the old db, or if it writes to it as well. Either way you'll need to stand up some intermediary. What kind of intermediary really depends on throughput and data size, so we'd need more information to give useful advice.

user59944612• 8 years ago

Assuming you are in a very large organization.

1) When the system is down and you're asked for an explanation. You deliver a post mortem putting the responsibility on the database. The database is down. The database team is working on it.

2) If you are facing repeated major downtime. You keep track of failures caused by the database. You make a chart with a health check to the database every minute.

3) You report to your management that the database service doesn't meet expectations and it's affecting your services, supported by the previous reports you just created. It's the responsibility of the database and the management to run their services and decide where to allocate resources.

4) Make it clear that your service depends on its database. Any question about downtime or better SLA should be replied with the postmortem from 1 and/or the improvement plan from 3.

All you can do is report. You probably don't have a say. Your manager probably doesn't have a say. Maybe the database team doesn't have the power to fix anything either.

xendo• 8 years ago

I don't think end customer cares about why is his experience broken. Following a process that accepts things being broken, but shifts the responsibility doesn't fix anything. Op's question is a great sign of ownership and customer obsession on his side.

The actuall solution is tough, but I think something can be improved. First of all I would try to measure and root cause the problem. It's hard for me to believe that the DB has 90% availability, I'm not aware of any commercial DB that's this bad. I would avoid creating shards of db, it will lead to hard to debug data inconsistencies. In this regard, cache with reasonable TTL is a better choice wince it guarantees eventual consistency of the data. I would also take a deep look into retry approaches you can take, something like exponential backoff with jitter and properly adjusted number of retries can greatly increase your availability.

user59944612• 8 years ago

If it's impacting a public service with external clients, you should add that to the report, with an estimation of monetary and reputation loss. Customer issues are more likely to be noticed.

The OP is the customer and the database team is the service provider. It's their role to provide a service working within specifications. That's how it works in large organization. Most of everything is internal services providing services to other internal services.

beckler• 8 years ago

Coming from the small business/startup world, to a giant enterprise, this is what I struggle with the most. I'm used to digging in the dirt to figure out an issue, and get it done as quickly as possible.

Having zero control over the infrastructure and having to work with various teams can be a pain whenever you want to make a change, but they have a silver lining in that production issues are usually not your responsibility.

But with their response times, you would think it's not their responsibility either...

chrisgoman• 8 years ago

Seems like you are doing mostly reads. Implement a very basic ETL (just a dumb copy) to a DB you control. Once the corporate DB is better, hopefully you are just changing the connection string. If you have some control, a replicated slave. For writes, you may have to try to connect and write, then catch any exceptions and queue up the write for later. Once things get stable, your queue should be empty.

jabart2• 8 years ago

Been there. We had a central DB that everyone relied on that also would allow ad-hoc queries from support staff. Locks were an issue and failed batch job would leave transaction open. The entire org had to use this database, no way around it and there was 10+ years of legacy code in various systems.

We took the simple approach, we had our own database server, so we had the DBAs setup a one-way replication of key tables we needed. We put stored procs and synonyms in front of those tables so in case they moved it wasn't a major expense to us, that also helped the DBAs feel better in case they needed to drop the replication. We also copied over any stored proc we needed to use, pointed them at our synonyms. This also helped to buffer any unintended consequences from an update to a stored proc. Average replication latency was 250ms, setup an alert to let us know if it went higher to let us tell the other teams they might start having issues.

The result, the entire company could be frozen from an open transaction on a key table, but our app could keep working. Effort level was low, results were amazing.

3pt14159• 8 years ago

That sounds really interesting!

One question though: Did your app not need to propagate changes back to theirs? Like, say a customer moved from Canada to the USA and now you no longer needed to apply HST. How did you handle data going back the other way? Aren't you risking getting out of sync if the data is a two way propagation?

jabart2• 8 years ago

When we did need to propagate changes back, we used a service by another team, if that team used queues, just a direct post, error to log. If they didn't, we put up a queue, and added it to our queue processor and tried their service for 3 days, logging each time to eventual dead letter our ops team could retry.

bni• 8 years ago

"so we had the DBAs setup a one-way replication of key tables we needed"

What software did the replication? Something built into the DB or 3rd party?

hullsean• 8 years ago

This is an organizational alignment issue. your application SLOs can be at but not above your dependent components. if that db has 90% uptime than your application cannot be better. add an outage message that makes the cause loud & clear

mschuster91• 8 years ago

Back up the DBs in my environment as best as possible and serve traffic from there

From a data protection/retention view: run a cache and use expiration in terms of weeks. Keeping the data as "backups" floating around is a recipe for heavy fines if someone decides to do an audit and finds some left over sqldumps.

If you do need a full backup/replication: get this written off by your superiors so you aren't on the hook in case someone decides to do an audit and determines you to being the one responsible.

jlgaddis• 8 years ago

A lot the comments here are missing the point.

This is NOT a technical problem to be solved with a technical solution. It is a management/organizational issue and should be solved at that level.

bigcostooge• 8 years ago

But it won’t.

lostcolony2• 8 years ago

This. Everyone gets that it -should- be dealt with by management. Everyone (else) also gets that it won't be, because that's the reality of many large companies.

slededit• 8 years ago

Its not possible at all organizations, but an individual contributor can solve these sorts of problems provided they've spent the time building rapport with the offending department. If you have a history of making other people look good they will want to work with you on issues.

scosman• 8 years ago

If you can't get the team who owns the data to meet the needed uptime, then you probably shouldn't start the project in the first place. It's a classic case of organizational differences in priority; solving them with tech pretty much never works. Any caching layer will be more expensive than fixing the root cause, and add consistency issues. As an IC, you'll feel pressure to make it work the best you can with what you have, but sometimes the answer is it's doomed from the start if the right folks aren't bought in.

Some tips if you have to proceed:

1) Be clear you can promise a SLO for you app, but not it's dependancies. If the dependancies are down, some features won't work.

2) Have honest clear errors that explain the clear root cause. Cloudflare's "Web server is down" page is a great example. It pretty clearly say's "we're up, but they aren't".

ewjordan• 8 years ago

If you need to write to the DB, you're hosed, and caching locally will only make things more of a headache. If not, you might be able to improve read uptime, but at a high cost. It's not easy to keep a local DB in sync with a remote that's only got 90% uptime, especially since it sounds like you have no support from the DBAs (they'd ideally need to set up replication permissions for you, and with that much downtime it's going to be a mess).

As others have said, this is an organizational issue and the best way to handle it is to dig into the human politics.

devonkim• 8 years ago

Fundamentally, your database availability matters more than anything else at the moment for your SLO. So it is important to understand what keeps the DB team from delivering a solution that has better measured SLA. If they’re fighting similar problems as yourself such as legacy software and the business has made supporting that (even at the cost of torpedoing newer projects) higher priority you need to accurately and objectively show how your deficiencies are solely related to the organizational priorities. If the DB team is just run poorly, understaffed, etc. it’s even more important to be a politically aware engineer to be successful.

Is there even any application or service that exists in your enterprise that can show high availability while using that database? Be careful to not become the pawn of a leader that is getting thrown under the bus by incumbents by being tasked with basically impossible duties and objectives. Even if the person’s intentions are noble that simply increases the chances of failure and your lessons therefore become lost (most large organizations and cultures seem to have a poor job reflecting carefully upon failures compared to trying to replicate successes no matter how circumstantial the nature of success).

lostcolony2• 8 years ago

We've had to deal with similar things.

Figure out how much you -really- have to sync with this database. If you can have an alternative source of truth for your apps, it will help (and you can then just best effort push back to the crufty DB)

If you can't make it so you have your own source of truth, determine if an outdated truth is better than no answer. For many problems this is the case. In that case, have all reads hit the crufty DB first, and failing that, your cache. Have a sync operation as well (or at least, everytime you read from the crufty DB, persist any return values to your cache). For writes, you can write to both as well, however, during times the crufty DB is unavailable, you'll need to decide if you should take the write to the local DB, and store the sync operation on a queue to retry, or if you should only store it on a queue to retry, hitting the crufty DB first, and only on acknowledgement there taking it to your own DB (basically, in the event of a write/read pattern while crufty DB is down, do you want it to read the last known synced value, or the last value written, even it hasn't made it to the crufty DB).

Either way, that can cause some interesting race conditions. Make sure you have good logging capabilities.

If neither of those is possible, if you absolutely -have- to rely on the crufty DB as a source of truth, that it's better to return no answer than an outdated one, you're screwed, from a technical perspective. Communicate the resulting failures fully, be clear where the fault occurred with the stakeholders, and that it's not something you control.

mr_toad• 8 years ago

Are you writing to the DB?

If not, copy the data. Reporting from a live system can cause all sorts of problems, including not being able to reproduce results.

thedirt0115• 8 years ago

Disclaimer: The following suggestion only works if you only READ from their DB. Can you roll your own DB that matches theirs schema-wise for the tables you need, but doesn’t suck in terms of availability? If you can get that set up, then in places where there are writes to their DB that you care about, also write to yours. Do a one-shot migration to copy data you care about after you land your change to double write. Then, modify your app to read from your DB and ignore theirs. Finally, once everything has been running smoothly for a while, collect data showing your system is better than theirs, get them fired, and become the new DBA for your company :)

Ask HN: Strategies for database reliability when I have no control over the DB?

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