The Four Levels of Social Entrapment

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/09/four-levels-of-social-entrapment.html

by SandB0x • 16 years ago

159 84 16 years ago

hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com

edkennedy• 16 years ago

The article plays off the insecurities of others in their belief that they are imposing on others by being social. That being said, it has very very funny ms paint illustrations.

brianlash• 16 years ago

Reminds me of one of Jim Carey's famous scenes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g1KcOw7zas

dgallagher• 16 years ago

"He" so needs to make a sequel to that movie. "Pretty bird..."

Tycho• 16 years ago

Don't forget level five: being invited to social functions with people you don't know very well. Not only are you not in the comfort of your own home, not in control of the situation, and not able to make amusing conversation, but now a large group of people bear witness to your interpersonal epicfail and once the conversation runs dry may find yourself simply sitting in silence listening to whatever racket is being played (usually very loud) in the background, frozen in your seats, preserved in awkwardness like some sort of distasteful museum exhibit.

stretchwithme2• 16 years ago

very true, hate that.

but its not quite a trap when someone invites you to the trap, telling you "hey, I'm having a trap. Wanna come?" Plus, you can leave the trap by saying "I have another trap to go to."

potatolicious• 16 years ago

"So... how's about that local sports team?"

In my experience people know what it is like to be stuck as "that guy" in such a situation, and they've all had to endure the Awkward Silence(tm), and they're cool with it. Let them toss you a lifeline - I find that directly exposing the awkwardness of the situation gets a few ironic laughs and also gives you the excuse to completely diverge from the previous conversation path.

Awkward Silences(tm) happen, people know they happen. The trick is that if you let it bother you, people around you will let it bother them (and their perception of you). The only solution is to barge right on through it as if you don't care.

astrofinch• 16 years ago

Pretty sure only introverts have trouble with this kind of stuff. Extroverts (people who get energized by social situations) don't.

stretchwithme2• 16 years ago

even extroverts can be bored out of their mind by someone playing head games. People who love to eat can still avoid things that are painful to eat

hugh34• 16 years ago

And the social awkwardness of repeatedly running into someone you sort-of know in the grocery store is pretty much unavoiable whoever you are.

reader5000• 16 years ago

Eh, honestly be grateful there are people that want to talk to you. Learn some basic assertiveness if such friendly interactions are excruciating for you.

lsc6• 16 years ago

it's easier for some people than for others. Especially for introverts, the skill of leaving gracefully is a non-trivial skill that needs to be learned.

I mean, most people are capable of saying "fuck you leave me alone you asshole" but usually, you don't want to come off that strong. In most cases, you don't really have any desire to hurt the other person, and hell, you might even want to talk later, or talk about a different subject. I just want to be very clear that I am not interested in hearing about how all 50 presidents can be traced back to some 13th century English aristocrat, or hearing about some other crazy political idea or theory that doesn't lead to something implementable.

It's the ability to make it clear that you aren't interested in this conversation right now without sounding like you aren't interested in talking with this person ever that is the tricky bit for those of us who are not particularly skilled.

I used to be really, really bad at this. I'm getting better, but I still use crutches and props like my laptop or cellphone, or simply making up something I've gotta do. (well, really, there's /always/ something useful I could be doing, but if I'm at my local hackerspace, if someone wants to talk politics, I'm far more likely to actually start working as an excuse to avoid the conversation.)

Part of it is being willing to be a little rude... but like I said, the hard part about that isn't so much the being rude, the hard part is being "a little" rude - enough to get the desired result without completely alienating the other person.

This, I think, is what the author of the article was mentioning. In the introduction, he says "You need to find a way to end the conversation without making it seem like you want the conversation to end." - which is wrong, I think. My opinion is that you should find a way to indicate that you wish to end this conversation without indicating that you don't like or never want to talk to this person again.

loewenskind6• 16 years ago

I don't get why "talking politics" is something to so desperately avoid in the US. Many intelligent people just wont talk about leaving mostly the close minded life long party members to be the only voices. Personally I think this is why the political landscape is so awful in the US.

aneth2• 16 years ago

Enjoyed the article, but I've learned to just be a little rude. Rejection is part of life, and you can't live yours just trying not to hurt peoples' feelings. In fact, if you actually care, you should find a time to talk to the person about how they can improve themselves. If you don't, the more honest you are with your interactions, the better, IMO.

People who play the game this author plays are a big reason I want to get out of Seattle. It's passive aggressive niceties like this that quickly take over the fun in life and drive me nuts.

rubyrescue2• 16 years ago

Seattle is one of the worst cities in the US, nay, world for this!

RiderOfGiraffes• 16 years ago

I assume you have comprehensive personal experience of everywhere else in the USA, nay, the world, to be able to say this. I'd love to hear of your extensive travel experiences.

sajid• 16 years ago

This kind of stuff shouldn't be allowed on HN ... couldn't stop laughing out loud like a maniac.

wallflower3• 16 years ago

It is embarrassing that some of the most otherwise socially capable people do not know the proper technique to extricate yourself from a conversation.

First, what you don't do:

1. Never ever say "It was nice meeting you" and walk away. Worst case, you've made an enemy.

2. Do not say "I want to go to the buffet/bathroom". They may want to go along with you.

What to do:

1. State what you want. "I'd like to go meet those people over there."

2. Give them a choice. "Come with me"

lsc6• 16 years ago

>Never ever say "It was nice meeting you" and walk away

wait a second... I do that all the time. what's bad about it?

wallflower3• 16 years ago

Was it really nice to meet them? Or are you trying to ditch them? When someone pulls the 'it was nice meeting you' gambit on you - are you relieved or do you like being ditched?

luciferous• 16 years ago

This is the best advice. You don't have to leave a person, you can recruit them. It also works with people with whom you don't get along at first.

hugh34• 16 years ago

That runs the risk of not extricating yourself. Maybe you go and meet those people over there and your new "friend" comes with you. Turns out those people are boring too, so you have to move on to the next group of people.

Saying "well, if you'll excuse me I'm going to get another drink/some food/whatever" is fine. They won't follow you unless you invite them (or at least they shouldn't), since that's code for "I'm ditching this conversation, bye!"

wallflower3• 16 years ago

This strategy, as others have pointed out, is hedged heavily towards not ditching the solo "latch key" event attendee. For maximum effect, if you do try it (it's a rush), join a group that is seated by dragging chairs over (demonstrates maximum commitment) to sit down with the new group. A lot of what the other posters have said - it's nice meeting you is average social lubricant. What this strategy espouses is focusing on the other person, not you. You presumably are indifferent to 'nice meeting you' rejection. This is about not making the other party feel rejected. As a bonus, it makes you into a leader - organizing disparate groups, bridging cliched cliches...

narrator4• 16 years ago

Conversation Zen Levels from lowest zen to highest:

Level 1: The conversation does not involve talking about your job. This is only acceptable in business network situations. If you are not at a trade show, business event, in an interview or at work you shouldn't talk about work. This is the most pathetic type of small talk, as it immediately puts you in a social class/stereotype bucket.

Level 2: The conversation does not involve talking about where you live, or whether you are going to school and where. Unless you are exactly the same age, you are not likely to gain any useful information from this, except to put people into a social class or stereotype bucket, which is detrimental to conversation.

Level 3: The conversation does not involve talking about any topics that have to do with people or activities outside of the immediate first-hand knowledge of the individuals involved in the conversation. E.g no talk about sports, celebrities, world politics, etc. This kind of talk usually results in nothing positive that you haven't had 100 or more conversations about already and serves to bucketize, not in so far as social class is concerned but in other aspects. Sometimes the other person will have specialized knowledge about a topic, for instance you may have read the same book or may be into the same niche topic, and this is acceptable conversation for this zen level but usually conversation falls into overly mainstream categories that tend to categorize and stereotype. It's really really hard to have a common niche interest unless you're at an event catering to that interest so best not to bother.

Level 4: The conversation does not involve any conversation about anything taking place in the past or outside of the immediate physical area. This only usually happen as part of a shared activity and may be difficult or impossible on a plane or similar circumstances where there is little in the way of shared experience in the immediate physical area.

Figure out what Zen level you want to communicate with people at and then just don't talk unless you can achieve that zen level. Ok I made that all up right in this comment box. The main idea is to avoid any sort of conversation that would bucketize the other person into a particular social class or stereotype for as long as possible or bore them with uninteresting chatter in order to have any more fulfilling interaction. What do you guys think?

TheSOB88• 16 years ago

Can you try not using double negatives like "does not involve ... activities outside first-hand knowledge"? It's really hard to read, especially since I'm tired.

AssumeTheBest5• 16 years ago

Oh come on, can't you find something better to complain about in that huge wall of text?

sz• 16 years ago

What does this have to do with Zen?

swombat• 16 years ago

Nothing.

Did you notice his line at the end, "Ok I made that all up right in this comment box." ? That kind of implies that the Zen labels were not to be taken seriously.

revicon• 16 years ago

"...and then just don't talk unless you can achieve that zen level..."

Heh, let me know when you figure out how to pull this off.

narrator4• 16 years ago

In non-dating recreational situations you can actually pull off level 4 if you're disciplined. For instance, if you go to a sailing class. Only talk about sailing and learning sailing. Put all your brain into it and keep out of lower level talk. People will find you very mysterious and interesting because you didn't lay all your cards on the table so they could just put you in a bucket.

bastardlee2• 16 years ago

Level 0: The cellphone conversation

Maybe this is a little bold to be stating on a tech-oriented blog, but I dread having a conversation about cellphones. I don't care what kind of cellphone you have. I don't care that you care what kind of cellphone I have. I don't want to talk about what kind of apps I use, or the new features, or the latest goddam iPhone.

Its probably because the conversations are usually so freaking trite and predictable, and 99% of the time no one has anything interesting to say about their cellphones, my cellphone, or what kind of cellphone they want and deserve. It's also a reminder of the consumer culture we live in and it makes me feel like a yuppie when I'm fighting my hardest to avoid becoming one.

That all said, I inevitably end up in them, and a part of me dies every time, even as I smile and laugh and talk about the great speech recognition on my 3GS and how AT&T sucks.

hugh34• 16 years ago

Doesn't this just reduce to "talk about the weather"? Because if you're not going to talk about anything that isn't in the immediate physical area and isn't in the past, you're reduced to "nice weather today, isn't it?" or perhaps "See that lamp over there? I like that lamp. I don't like that carpet though."

narrator4• 16 years ago

Level 3 is fine, if you're at a dinner party or something like that with people you don't know and you just have to talk to someone because it's boring otherwise. Usually social situations work better though if there's some sort of shared activity or purpose to the event.

Think about how people meet all their best friends in college and in high school. At these stages of one's life people haven't been split off into their social segments yet and have plenty to talk about because they are helping each other study for exams, or playing on sports teams together or working on other practical projects like organizing clandestine weekend keggers. It's in these situations that people really get to know each other, instead of just this social filtering process that usually passes for conversation.

angstrom• 16 years ago

I do great one on one, probably better than most. I can converse without focusing on myself. I inquire, listen, reciprocate. What I suck at is group talk. Part of it is that I'm actually following what everyone is saying and not looking for the point when I can interrupt with a comment. Though what most people say in such situations, particularly amongst tenuous friendships or uncommon coworkers amounts to low level banter.

rdtsc• 16 years ago

Hear, hear. I dread having conversations in large groups. Make it a loud bar, and I just find a reason not to go. A conversation with 3 people might work. @ 4+ it just turns into a mess. I either don't say enough, or jump in at the wrong time and cut someone off because I am afraid someone else will jump in.

bilch• 16 years ago

Is there a word for letting the world know how great you are by not-so-cleverly disguising your greatness as a shortcoming? There should be. I need it every day.

(Sorry to bother you with this, I actually am quite verbally adept, but English is my twenty-sixth foreign language and even after weeks of practice sometimes the correct word escapes me.)

mburney• 16 years ago

This kind of "awkwardness" is felt as a result of being stuck in your head. It's only awkward if you're worried about making a mistake. But you can relax, you're allowed to make mistakes. No one except you really cares if you said something stupid or rude or pointless.

Confusion2• 16 years ago

  No one except you really cares if you said something [..] rude

I don't think that's true and I think that it shows that you have never actually broken off an unwanted conversation by being honest. If you do that and, for instance, say "I'm sorry, but this conversation really doesn't interest me", people will feel insulted. You are forced to beat around the bush.

  [or] stupid or pointless

The fact that you yourself care about those is enough. You don't want to feel forced to say stupid or pointless things.

There are two ways out:

1) Be interested in what people have to say about certain subjects and steer the conversation there. Those subjects have to be general enough that everyone has something to say about them. Sometimes you turn out to be annoying, for instance when you are cross-examining someone about why they are happy with their lives.

2) Accept the fact that people will think you're weird or an asshole. Me, I just stay silent when there's nothing left to say. There's nothing wrong with silence. When the silence lasts long enough, I turn around and walk.

flatulent1• 16 years ago

The Onion just did a piece that fits in really well with all this... Even though it is written in jest, it somehow fits reality much better than we might like to admit when it comes to social motivation... Brutal honesty? You decide...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sorry-im-just-really-bad-wi...

AssumeTheBest5• 16 years ago

Some people like to make an attempt to be in control of their life. If you just run your mouth, you end up revealing information about yourself that you didn't intend. Often people might not be able to tell that what you said was an accident and they could hold you accountable in that relationship for it. I don't really like to cut loose unless I have a point to make.

philwelch5• 16 years ago

One of my neighbors has the habit of ending his conversations with, "Well, I don't have anything left to say" and then going back to his apartment. I like that about him.

Other than that, I didn't like the article. From what I've seen of this blog, the blogger seems far too interested in seeking recognition for her often-childish neuroses rather than developing the self-efficacy to do anything about them. There's no shame in admitting you're too tired to hang out, and there's no need to greet an acquaintance at the grocery store with any more than a nod and a "hey man" if you don't have anything to say.

jewbacca• 16 years ago

From what I understand, this blogger is a purely and explicitly comedic blogger who is making a living off of what she does. I'll leave it as an open exercise to enumerate exactly what it is she does that is valuable [0], but to criticize the author of this blog for not being lionhearted is pretty much like criticizing Larry David for not being Laurence Olivier.

  ---
  [0] How is there not some terse bit of internet-ese to invoke the futility of examining some instance of humour?

bedris• 16 years ago

I upvote all comments that compare Larry David to Laurence Olivier, regardless of what the commenter is saying.

AssumeTheBest5• 16 years ago

I enjoyed the validation that other people have experiences similar to mine, regardless of how they handle them. However, what is with the weird [0] citation etc.

michaelhalligan• 16 years ago

Personally, I just say "excuse me" and walk away from all uncomfortable or boring conversations.

akgerber• 16 years ago

I wonder what was behind the decision to put a background on this website that just makes it look like your monitor is dirty.

wazoox5• 16 years ago

Oh, so you too spent some time stupidly rubbing your clean monitor :)

delackner• 16 years ago

Amazed that someone even figured this out. I also tried cleaning my monitor and, on failing, rationalized it away as some kind of oil smear that would later require proper cleaning.

dustyreagan• 16 years ago

Haha! I noticed that too. I scrolled the page to see if the smudge scrolled with it.

yason• 16 years ago

This is why knowing how to say "no" is of utmost importance.

wazoox5• 16 years ago

That reminds me that apparently so many people actually seem to like going to places like bars and hang there for hours keeping on completely pointless conversations and drinking beer. Really, I don't get it. Twice a year is Okay, but twice a week? I'd be bored to death. Can anyone explain this social mystery?

bastardlee2• 16 years ago

Potential sex

wazoox5• 16 years ago

Yep, up to a certain point this describes lots of people.

dkarl3• 16 years ago

People go to bars and have conversations that they find pleasant. You need to go and have conversations that you find pleasant, which for you probably means stimulating and informative. You're probably talking to people who like different kinds of conversations. Find new people!

Alternatively, get interested in people themselves instead of just what they talk about. Every conversation can be mined for information about the person you're talking with. I'm working on this myself by reading Studs Terkel.

jdminhbg• 16 years ago

Most people go to bars with friends, not slight acquaintances, and have fun in-depth conversations, not pointless conversations. Most of the situations depicted in the cartoon are the result of unintentional meetings.

wazoox5• 16 years ago

Well I always found that I had better and more in-depth conversations at my home or my friends' homes that at some public, crowded and noisy place :)

AssumeTheBest5• 16 years ago

It's more like dogs playing in a bar. Nobody is really talking much, they are just exerting social power and forming groups and having a good time. If you aren't obsessed with socializing, it would be really boring, and even shamefully so.

wazoox5• 16 years ago

I guess that's it. I'm a bear, I don't enjoy social interaction much, and I hate crowds :)

berntb• 16 years ago

I have generally no problems with this. I am a type 3.

I am totally convinced emotionally that if I tell people about my nerdy interests carefully, they will understand that the subjects are the coolest things on (and off) the planet.

My saving grace is that I have so many nerdy interests that I can speak to most people anyway.

My message is: You don't need to fear me, just start talking about sports. Baseball is good, if you want to see real fear in my eyes.

It is OK if you don't know anything about sports, you can bluff me. :-)

estacado• 16 years ago

When at level 4, I try to have the conversation at the door with me inside and the other person outside. Once, I was really tired, but the other person really kept going on and on, I gave several hints that I've had enough, but he just didn't get it, I even said "Okay, It's nice talking, but I need to sleep now." He answered that he understood, but for some reason understanding it didn't make him stop talking. I really didn't care anymore so I just closed the door slowly while still he was talking. And left it at that. My roomate who was watching said I was rude, I said I know and we both laughed.

kmfrk• 16 years ago

Oh God, I thought this was an article with solutions for the problem.

Now I'm just feel like isolating myself from the world outside.

The Four Levels of Social Entrapment

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