Why You Should Switch to the Dvorak Keyboard Layout

http://workawesome.com/productivity/dvorak-keyboard-layout

by collistaeed • 16 years ago

50 73 16 years ago

workawesome.com

bitboxer2• 16 years ago

I thought it is proven that dvorak is not superior :

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/18/210216

Is there something wrong with that article/research?

tallanvor• 16 years ago

For me the real question is who cares which is "superior"? Seriously, people have so many options today and they can use whatever they prefer.

I tried learning Dvorak, but at the end of the day I've been using QWERTY for over 25 years, and I can type more than fast enough.

Besides, lots of people use other layouts anyway due to language differences requiring extra keys for letters. I do want to kill the person who decided that Shift-7 was a good place for the forward slash in most of those layouts, though!

paradoja• 16 years ago

One article (or "research") rarely proves anything. This article in particular has been contested.

bitboxer2• 16 years ago

I am aware of that. Can somebody please pinpoint the errors or show articles that explain where the writer has done errors? I am curious if it will be worth to switch, but I need some facts first :) .

michael_dorfman• 16 years ago

Have you read the article in question? It does a pretty thorough job of analyzing (and demolishing) the "research" presented, by Dvorak, in favor of the Dvorak keyboard.

If anybody has a strong, data-based counter-argument in favor of Dvorak, I'd like to hear it.

tome8• 16 years ago

You should be aware the the Dvorak vs Qwerty debate is politically charged. If it turned out that Dvorak were superior, this would be evidence for market failure.

A lot of people want to demonstrate that market failure [edit: does or] does not exist, hence there are many more attempts to show the inferiority [edit: or superiority] of Dvorak than you would expect to see in a politically neutral context.

numeromancer2• 16 years ago

Also:

You should be aware the the Dvorak vs Qwerty debate is politically charged. If it turned out that Dvorak were superior, this would be evidence for market failure.

A lot of people want to demonstrate that market failure does exist, hence there are many more attempts to show the superiority of Dvorak than you would expect to see in a politically neutral context.

loewenskind2• 16 years ago

Market failures happen all the time and are well known (e.g. "worse is better"). Why would "true believers" focus on Dvorak of all things?

gxti• 16 years ago

I've never thought of it as a market failure and certainly never framed the holy war as ultimately signaling economics beliefs. It's just a marginally lower local optima with a gargantuan switching cost. The benefits of having a standard layout far outweigh the costs of using a less optimal layout. On the other hand, it would take an Act of Government to make something else the standard (e.g. the DoD buying millions of Dvorak keyboards) and that is a typical symptom of market failure.

waterhouse• 16 years ago

I don't think it's a market failure to punt on a hard problem. The problem being, in this case, finding a satisfactory way to switch people to an intrinsically superior way of doing things. Simply forcing everyone to do it is not satisfactory, because the new way might very well not be superior (and because you'd be trampling on many people's rights, by definition of "forcing"). (Imagine what would happen if the government decided they were going to figure out once and for all which operating system was the best, and make everyone switch to it. And then, halfway through the process, new and drastically improved versions of each of the operating systems come out, and now a different one is superior.) Another alternative would have been "prevent any keyboard layout from becoming widely used before "we" figure out which is best", which is also unsatisfactory.

I don't believe in market failures, and I think Dvorak is superior and have been using it for a few years.

This doesn't contradict what you said, though, because, whether or not it would be a market failure, these people you mention certainly think it would be.

weavejester• 16 years ago

The article seems to be focused entirely on typing speed, and the studies cited mostly involve typists already proficient in Qwerty.

The article doesn't appear to mention typing distance or effort. Your fingers will move twice the distance in Qwerty than they would in Dvorak or Colemak. The home row is used twice as much in Qwerty, and whilst Dvorak and Colemak favour the right hand, Qwerty favours the left.

I shift between Qwerty and Dvorak keyboards regularly, and Dvorak is noticeably easier on the tendons.

chronomex• 16 years ago

I'm a big fan of Colemak (http://colemak.com/). It took me about a month to learn it. I don't type significantly faster but my fingers move less. It feels worth it, at least.

weego• 16 years ago

Let's say for arguments sake I have been using qwerty for the last 23 years or so, 15 or so touch typing. How much more efficient across my lifespan can trying to teach myself a completely different layout really be? It could be years before I clean out all the errors.

bad_user• 16 years ago

Why I'm not switching ...

1. It is not a standard ... I work on lots of workstations, including machines I do not own. Context switching between Dvorak and Qwerty is hard for me

2. It is optimized for English ... I also do lots of typing in my native language too, and there is a Dvorak layout optimized for my native language, but it has differences ... and context-switching is even harder because of the similarities.

In contrast, the Qwerty layout for my native language just replaces 5 symbol keys near Enter/Backspace with the needed diacritics. All other keys stay the same ... i.e. it's just an extension of the US layout.

3. Qwerty gives me plenty of confort. I'm only doing something like 80 WPM ... I don't need more than that and it's a confortable speed for my hands (if I'm going to get RSI from that, then Dvorak wouldn't be much of an improvement)

tome8• 16 years ago

I completely agree with points 2. and 3., but 1. is a myth. It's an absolute non-problem and it pains me to see it repeated again and again.

Any (remotely modern) workstation supports Dvorak. If you type for any substatial length of time, switching from Qwerty and back again when you're done will not be a time sink.

NB: This is not a reason to use Dvorak. It's just a counter to your argument that 1. is a reason not to use Dvorak!

mtoledo2• 16 years ago

For the record, I type in portuguese and spanish in dvorak and think its still superior to qwerty, so I don't think #2 is a valid argument at least for me, might no be to you as well.

j-g-faustus• 16 years ago

Why you shouldn't switch:

    This reminds me of when I tried to switch to a Dvorak 
    keyboard. The trouble was, I don't use one computer. I 
    use all kinds of computers. I use other people's 
    computers. I use three computers fairly regularly at 
    home and three at work. I use computers in the test lab 
    at work. The trouble with customizing your environment
    is that it just doesn't propagate, so it's not even
    worth the trouble.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059....

Which is my experience too. Dvorak would need to be at least 2-3 times faster than Qwerty to outweigh the disadvantages, a "possibly 10% faster" doesn't cut it.

tome8• 16 years ago

I hear this so often as an anti-Dvorak argument, and I cannot understand it. It seems like a complete non-objection to me.

If I need to use an unfamiliar computer, I can revert to hunt-and-peck Qwerty.

If I use that computer so often that hunt-and-peck significantly slows me down, I can afford to spend two minutes to switch the keymap to Dvorak.

[FWIW: I use Dvorak to prevent repetitive strain injury. "Time saving" is hardly an issue.]

rimantas2• 16 years ago

  I use Dvorak to prevent repetitive strain injury.

Do you have any evidence that it helps? ("I don't have RSI" does not count. I don't have it either, and I don't use dvorak).

famousactress• 16 years ago

As silly as it sounds to say... At this point it's iPad support and not other people's computers that would get in my way. Has anyone had success keeping _both_ layouts in their brains?

commodoretaco• 16 years ago

I used to write all my prose with dvorak and all my code in qwerty. Now that I write significantly more code than prose, I hardly ever switch over to dvorak. My dvorak speed has regressed a ton so it's not really worth it.

It's sometimes fun, though. I wrote this using dvorak.

andreaja• 16 years ago

Upon hearing that I use dvorak, people occasionally ask me if they should switch, to which I usually shrug. I'm happy with dvorak, but almost everyone else is happy with qwerty. I switched at a time where switching was cheap and am now "victim" to a similar kind of lock-in that most qwerty users are.

Despite being happy with dvorak, I see no real reason to evangelize a keyboard layout. It's simply not that big a deal.

rsaarelm• 16 years ago

I switched to Colemak after getting my arm in a cast and having my typing speed slowed anyway for three weeks. I've been using it for over a year now. I can't start touch-typing qwerty instantly any more, but I can still type comfortably on a qwerty keyboard as long as I can look at the keyboard, so occasional stints on a non-Colemak workstation aren't a problem. I had been touch-typing on qwerty for close to a fifteen years before this, and the switch was surprisingly problem-free. Getting to a nice speed on Colemak took about a month.

I haven't seen significant increase in typing speed, but there could be ergonomic benefit from having to twist my hands less to hit the awkwardly placed keys.

ultrobast• 16 years ago

I almost died when I had to use a Mac & all I got there was some unexpected home key behaviour and the squiggle button.

abecedarius• 16 years ago

On the iPad/iPhone, you can't get an on-screen Dvorak keyboard. People petitioned for it years ago and it's just not happening.

henrikhansen• 16 years ago

Actually you can. At least in iOS 4

rimantas2• 16 years ago

Looks like it is for hardware keyboard only, no? For on-screen you can choose between qwerty, azerty and qwertz

riffraff• 16 years ago

once I was in a conversation with two friends of mine, one of them had recently switched to dvorak and was explaining us how he was using some software to improve his typing speed.

The other replied "you are a programmer, you're supposed to spend 90% of the time thinking about what you do, why do you try to slightly improve the 10% spent writing it"?

Do dvorak users out there find themselves much more productive at the end of the day because of their typing speed?

tome8• 16 years ago

I doubt programmers will be more productive in Dvorak. Typing speed is not time critical.

Item 4 is why I use Dvorak.

"Dvorak is more comfortable and better for your health."

I changed to Dvorak to eliminate repetitive strain injury. I haven't spent a moment regretting it.

futuremint2• 16 years ago

I don't spend a lot of time typing out my programs but I do spend a log of time thinking them through. I have slight pain in my right wrist that comes and goes.

I narrowed it down to 2 causes:

1: My car has a manual transmission, and all that gear changing in my commute irritates the nerves.

2: Mousing. I spend a lot of time using the mouse to move all those damned windows around. I switched to using my left hand for the mouse. Now the only times my right wrist hurts are driving for extended periods in slow traffic, or using the touchpad on my laptop a lot (I still use my right hand by habit).

Switching to Dvorak might be the most obvious way to reduce RSI, but I don't think it is the one best thing you can do.

Another thing I'm doing to combat #2 above is trying to get as much of my programming done in Emacs as possible. I also have, "learn a decent window manager" on my list of things to do.

Once I can do all programming & code browsing/navigation in Emacs, and also use the keyboard to manage my windows... maybe Dvorak would help me.

didip• 16 years ago

Interesting you said that programming in Emacs helps reducing RSI.

When I was a heavy Emacs user, my left hand outer-side wrist is in constant pain because of always reaching the Control button.

mtoledo2• 16 years ago

http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirties...

ataggart• 16 years ago

One of his most absurd posts.

Writing code is not like taking dictation or even writing prose. In a split-second I can think up a sentence, one that's likely "good enough" to convey whatever point I'm trying to make. Further, there is almost no divergence between thinking of a sentence and its eventual form.

Perhaps I am dull-witted, but very often a split-second isn't sufficient to think about what function I need to write, much less also figure out what the implementation should be. I have to think far more deeply about what code I need to write, to the point that the time spent touching the keys is minimal; the situation becomes even more negligible the more terse the language. In terms of character length, an office secretary would be able to bang out a clojure library in a few minutes, one that took weeks to actually write.

P.S. I timed writing the above. 90% of the time was spent on thinking, editing, etc.; only 10% of the time accounted for actually banging out words.

ZeroGravitas3• 16 years ago

Maybe you could retort that you consider typing to be an a disruption to your thinking, something to be minimised both in time, physical discomfort and disruption by touch-typing in Dvorak.

Encosia• 16 years ago

Articles about this never talk about the impact of moving your common keyboard shortcuts. Being physically unable to use Ctrl-S,Z,C,V with my left hand while using the mouse with my right would be difficult to retrain around.

moobot2• 16 years ago

I've found that using X11's highlight + middle-click paste has drastically reduced just about all of my reliance on using shortcuts for copy/paste, at least in any application that requires me to keep my hand on the mouse (like a browser) rather than keeping both hands on the keyboard (like Vim).

vaporstun• 16 years ago

On a Mac, there are a few options for Dvorak baked in. One is Dvorak with Qwerty shortcuts. So Ctrl-Z,C,V still work as expected.

Edit: Technically, they're Command-Z,C,V on a Mac.

Jtsummers• 16 years ago

I've been using Dvorak for ~10 years, but primarily with the command line or other non-mouse driven interfaces. However, at work I'm condemned to a life of Windows, Office and Visual Studio. One trick I've found is to keep both Qwerty and Dvorak installed. When I want to use Ctrl-S,Z,C,V while also using the mouse I can just do "ctrl-shift ctrl-[SZXCV] ctrl-shift". The ctrl-shift action is quick enough that I barely notice it anymore. This is also useful when using other applications where remapping the keyboard would become tedious or isn't possible. It helps that I'm not too slow with Qwerty so there's no hunt&peck when I switch layouts.

mtgred• 16 years ago

I tried the Dvorak and Colemak keyboard layouts. The day I had to launch Vim again I realized Qwerty was the way to go.

stackthat• 16 years ago

The biggest question has unanswered in this article

"What's the avg. switch time?"

When can I get back to my speed of QWERTY, 3 days, 1 month?

tome8• 16 years ago

I touched typed on Qwerty before learning Dvorak. It took me about 3 weeks to get up to speed. It was extremely frustrating initially, but I'm delighted with the results (ten years down the line).

Benjo2• 16 years ago

It took me about a month to be comfortable with Dvorak. It's probably going to depend on how much you are willing to commit to Dvorak. You will learn much faster if you can avoid the temptation to switch back to Qwerty when you need to type something quickly. Typing a lot will obviously help as well.

Initially my Qwerty skill dropped way off, but two months later I was able to switch between the two formats with little effort.

nanairo2• 16 years ago

I wonder: would a system like Apple's automatic corrections for iOS work worse with Dvorak?

If Dvorak really makes travel time for your fingers shorter, wouldn't that also make it harder for a predictive systems to cope with human's error?

(This is not a rhetorical or provocative question, but a serious question.)

powrtoch• 16 years ago

The only issue I can imagine is that your mistakes might be more likely to form real words. The way dvorak is set up so that the vowels are concentrated means accidentally going one character to the left will probably result in something intelligible looking, if not a real word ("beg"->"bag"), whereas in qwerty you're likely to type gibberish ("beg"->"bwg"). Obviously it's easier for auto-correct to notice gibberish than wrong words.

I see no reason that shorter travel time would impact it though.

nanairo2• 16 years ago

Yes, that's what I meant by short travel time. It would make it a lot harder for auto-correct to understand what you were trying to type.

numeromancer2• 16 years ago

I switched to Dvorak for 3 years and became proficient at it. I put up with a lot of annoyances, waiting for it to be worthwhile; it never was.

Luckily, I am blessed with self-doubt, and was able to say to myself "Hey, self, stop being an idiot!", and switched back to QWERTY.

moobot2• 16 years ago

The benefits to me are all based around comfort. If using Dvorak isn't more comfortable for you in everyday usage, then there's no reason IMO to stick with it.

knodi• 16 years ago

The other problem is that your control/alt/command + keystrokes become a problem with Dvorak. So if your using VIM/EMac or another like editor you going to not want to switch.

zck• 16 years ago

I switched to Colemak last year, and I haven't had a problem with Emacs. But then, to call 'forward-char, I think "C-f", not "Control-left hand index finger home row". Having that extra layer of indirection in my head allowed me to make the switch easily.

magamiako• 16 years ago

For those of us that are left-handed, dvorak is very cumbersome to use. It strongly prefers the right hand for typing, and if your dominant hand is the other--dvorak feels really weird to type with.

Give me a dvorak, but favored for left-handed typers, and I could see it improving my speed. Until then, I can break easily 120wpm in qwerty--I'm not too concerned.

ljlolel• 16 years ago

Colemak is better for 3 reasons:

1. It changes fewer keys so it's fas easier to learn. I picked it up in a few hours.

2. It changes fewer keys so I switch between Colemak and Qwerty regularly.

3. It was designed after computers were invented. It keeps programming code in mind. It also used computers to design the optimal layout to maximize "finger-rolls" (really fast typing).

tomjen3• 16 years ago

It depends, I won't argue with 1, but I change between Dvorak and Qwerty constantly (I sometimes run a different layout for my IDE and one for my laptop).

And I doubt there is a better layout for programming than programmers dvorak.

Benjo2• 16 years ago

This article says they were able to find a copy of the original Navy study:

http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html

Was anyone able to find an online copy of the studies from Western Electric or Oregon State University that the article referenced?

aplusbi• 16 years ago

I've been thinking about switching to Colemak but the fact that I use Vim daily has kept me from seriously considering it.

While I certainly can remap some keys in Vim, I'm not sure if that's such a good idea in the long run. Some keys, such as h,j,k and l are no-brainers - those should be remapped. But what about w, b and e? When I'm using those keys it's all muscle memory, but should I really change w to y (word to yank)?

Do I want to spend my time learning a new keyboard layout AND relearning how to use Vim? Ultimately I've decided that Qwerty is good enough for me. I don't have RSI and I can type at a max speed of over 90 wpm (I probably average in the 70s for "real world" typing).

carussell• 16 years ago

I use Vim every day and don't remap.

Some keys, such as h,j,k and l are no-brainers - those should be remapped.

Not really. J and K remain side-by-side if you switch. H and L is also largely the same: instead of reaching over for H on QWERTY, you reach up for L on Dvorak; the left-to-right order of H and L is still correct, too. It even unintentionally falls into the Dvorak Way, since up/down is under the left hand, while left/right is under the right.

kschua• 16 years ago

I have switched to a Dvorak keyboard now for over a year after 20 years as a QWERTY typist.

To answer some of the questions in the comments

1) My peak speed for the Dvorak was at 100wpm compared to around 70wpm in QWERTY (I am intentionally slowing my typing speed now)

2) It took me 4 months to convert and get back to the speed I got using QWERTY. During that period, I switched between QWERTY and DVORAK a lot. The program DVAssist made it easy to switch it using a simple function key

3) For those who have problems using Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V, you can use Ctrl-Ins and Shift-Ins respectively. I find it much easier

4) If you need to use Dvorak on another computer, I have created an on the fly javascript program to do that on http://www.electronizer.com/dvorak.html (Note : It only works on IE)

I personally find the Dvorak keyboard more comfortable to type with. I have an RSI problem which I thought was due to the QWERTY, however, after getting to my peak speed in Dvorak, the problem started coming back, thus I am actually trying to slow my speed (I am contemplating being a 2 finger typist instead).

I reckon the problem with RSI and keyboard is not due to the keyboard layout, but more in the positioning of the keyboard when typing. To elaborate, I noticed people tend to centre their keyboards and align it to their body, this has the problem where the right hand has to over extend to type because of the numeric keypad placed on the right side of the keyboard. Couple this with the fact that the mouse is on the right hand side on most people's keyboard, this makes the right hand move more. An observation I noted was that people tend to move the wrist and not the entire hand.

To combat RSI, I have adopted the following

1) Align the keyboard "G" to align with the centre of my body (or the centreline as Wing Chun practitioner calls it). This enables both hands to extend to the same length.

2) Move the elbow and less of the wrist (whole forearm movement, another of Wing Chun's principle of using the whole arm)

3) Use the mouse with the left hand (easier done for me as I am a left hander) and the number pad with the right hand

My motivation for switching to Dvorak was to combat RSI and to prove that I can change a habit of 20 years.

If you are a 2 finger typist, I don't recommend switching to Dvorak. If you are switching for RSI, my experience is that it doesn't work. If you switch to Dvorak, you might miss out on a cool technology for mobile phones called Swype. Unless of course they have Dvorak support in the future.

hapless• 16 years ago

I switched to Dvorak about ten years ago. My experiences don't line up with a lot of the speculation I see in this thread.

* Most speed gains come from hunt-and-peck QWERTY typists learning true touch typing for the first time. If your first formal typing classes were in, say, high school, you never really un-learned your wretched habits. (On typists who were trained correctly from day one, QWERTY has always been just as fast as alternative layouts, hence its market success.)

* I find Dvorak really is vastly more comfortable. I have RSI problems. The working day is a constant battle against pain and fatigue. I can type longer without fatigue using Dvorak than QWERTY.

* The "switching" problem is real. It only took me about three days to learn Dvorak well enough to regain my original QWERTY typing speed. It took almost two years to be able to switch between Dvorak and QWERTY at will, without resorting to hunt and peck. These days, I can could easily switch mid-sentence.

* The keyboard shortcuts problem is pretty much bullshit. I found that my muscle memory moved with the letters. One-handed ctrl X/C/V only mattered when I was typing with the wrong hand. (e.g. typing on the left side of the keyboard with my right hand.) I can even use keyboard shortcuts correctly when switching between QWERTY/Dvorak.

runjake• 16 years ago

I use too many disparate keyboards (Dell, Apple, on-screen mobile keyboards, physical keyboards, iPad keyboards) to even begin to bother. Also, I'm pleased with my current typing speed, thank you.

To each their own, though.

krummas• 16 years ago

I switched to dvorak with a http://typematrix.com keyboard about 10 months ago and not looking back, only drawback is that i cant type on the laptop anymore. Having the enter and backspace keys in the middle of the keyboard is truly the biggest benefit for me, hitting enter with a "strong" finger really makes a difference.

The main reason i switched to dvorak was that i wanted a typematrix keyboard and if i was relearning where the enter key etc is, i could as well switch to dvorak.

It took about three months to be as fast as qwerty.

gchpaco• 16 years ago

I had a wrist health scare in I guess early 2006 now; tendonitis instead of carpal tunnel but the same sort of shooting pains. I changed a lot of things--keyboard I typed on, wearing wrist braces, posture, but among other things I switched to Dvorak. I think it is a important part of why I can type today without pain; whenever I am forced to do QWERTY at length (which is admittedly usually on poor keyboards) the pain starts to return.

macrael• 16 years ago

Regardless of whether Dvorak is better on physical keyboards, it is definitely worse when it comes to soft keyboards, which are on the rise. I wrote about it here: http://macrael.com/blog/qwerty_rides_again.html but the gist is that since Dvorak puts frequently used characters next to one another, it makes it more difficult to recognize different words' patterns (think swype) which is what makes the autocorrect so good on today's phones.

ZeroGravitas3• 16 years ago

Surely it's only a matter of time before someone takes the concept of the iPhone keyboard or Swype and figures out a way to get improved input or error-correction rates by throwing out the legacy QWERTY layout.

It's only with the introduction of the iPad that you can even type with all your fingers anyway, and even then only in perfect conditions. Dvorak makes as little sense as Qwerty for one finger pecking on a tiny phone, it's just that people are used to using Qwerty in situations when it's non-optimal (i.e. anything but mechanical typewriters that are susceptible to bar jams if two nearby keys are hit quickly in succession).

Where's the one handed Dvorak keyboard for Android, or a chording keyboard that uses multitouch? I don't want Dvorak, I want the same kind of ingenuity and applied science as Dvorak used to create new solutions.

william42• 16 years ago

Personally, I think touchscreen layouts should start making more commonly-used keys bigger in accordance with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts_law

Why You Should Switch to the Dvorak Keyboard Layout

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