Norway as a destination for tech founders

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencewintermeyer/2018/01/19/norway-calling-all-us-and-uk-tech-hipsters/#39a2d89158fb

by punnerud • 9 years ago

62 64 9 years ago

forbes.com

dogma1138• 9 years ago

With the cost of employemnt and lack of VCs I doubt they would be very successful.

nkkollaw6• 9 years ago

Sure. So that you can run out of money in 1 mo. instead of 6 in S.F. :-/

Startups that need to prove their value proposition before the money runs out should come to Poland. Very techy (Warsaw, Wroclaw in particular), and you have 2 years instead of 6 months (or 1) because of the extremely low cost of living. As a plus, really cheap beer and beautiful women.

always_good• 9 years ago

Mexico has the advantage of beaches and a few hour plane ride from the States to visit your loved ones. And better weather and an easier language.

Poland is certainly a great place as well. As I get older though it's nice being a 2 hour plane ride from my aging parents in Texas.

nkkollaw6• 9 years ago

If we're talking about North America, sure--if there are a lot of devs and not a lot of crime (no idea).

tytytytytytytyt• 9 years ago

Mexico also has a bonus 'do not travel' advisory in 5 states, for those seeking that extra bit of excitement.

cpursley• 9 years ago

What part of Mexico are you based out of? What download speeds are you seeing?

culturestate5• 9 years ago

If I were looking somewhere in the Americas I'd probably choose Chile for some of the same reasons you mentioned. Santiago is a great town, relatively safe, and Chile has probably the most stable government in Central / South America.

It doesn't fit the short flight criteria, but it's better than going Oslo to Dallas.

masonic• 9 years ago

  come to Poland.

How realistic is that for non-EU nationals and non-Polish speakers? Do you know of success stories?

nkkollaw6• 9 years ago

Sorry, as the topic was Norway I was only talking about Europe.

As for the language, I'm Italian working with devs and I've yet to find any dev that doesn't speak English fluently. Not the same for regular people, but not sure about Norway, either.

_delirium3• 9 years ago

Maybe surprisingly, Norway is cheaper than SF for many people. (Not as cheap as Poland, of course.) Admittedly, a lot of consumer goods are more expensive in Norway than SF (especially alcohol). But rent is lower, even in Oslo, which is likely to be many people's biggest expense. Also, health insurance is included in the tax rate instead of a separate expense.

charlesdm2• 9 years ago

Rent might be lower, but taxes are much higher, making it much harder to come up with the cash required to pay rent from salary. If you're not a first-timer, but someone with a previous exit and some capital under your belt, then there is the wealth tax to deal with.

dfee• 9 years ago

I would like to find a place that claims it has less than beautiful women.

"Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."

jackaroe78• 9 years ago

And a pretty great bunch of 8-bit Atari enthusiasts to boot! (not a startup, but still really look forward to visiting someday)

balladeer2• 9 years ago

How is the rent scene there? And the general cost of living - for a graduate student? Is English sufficient to live by as it is in say Germany and NL, at least for initial six months or so?

Thinking of keeping it as an option for my MS.

siquick• 9 years ago

The vast majority of people in the Netherlands speak fluent English.

yazr• 9 years ago

Whats the English-speaking situation in these cities ?

Can you get by with just English for the first year and the first 10 employees ?

nkkollaw6• 9 years ago

Absolutely. I don't speak Polish and I was able to open a company, find an accountant, hire help.

doug1001• 9 years ago

i lived for two years in Oslo, Norway, but also spent time in Bergen in Stavanger (west coast).

it's a beautiful country, but for a start-up? I have my doubts.

i have also lived in the Bay Area; live here now in fact.

Norway is the most expensive country i have ever lived in or visited--more than SF, more than Manhattan, perhaps about the same as Tokyo, although i have only made brief visits there for work.

Taxes are insanely high: income tax is on the level as Switzerland; VAT is 24.5%. Petrol prices are the highest in any country i have ever driven in.

lastly, working start-up hours (or even normal hours) is not easy during the months of October through February when daylight's non-existent or negligible

e_b• 9 years ago

Tokyo is or can be significantly less expensive. It's just that you'll live in a smaller apartment of lower standard.

discordance2• 9 years ago

Less English speaking in Japan, and a lower quality of life generally.

_delirium3• 9 years ago

I don't think Norway ends up more expensive than SF or Manhattan for most people. Yes, petty expenses like buying beer in a pub are high, but the really big expense for most people, rent, is far lower. You can get a nice, modern, centrally located apartment in Oslo, without roommates or rats, for $1300-1500/mo ($10-12k NOK). And you can get it down to more like $1000/mo ($8k NOK) if you're willing to commute a bit. Try getting something with that budget in SF or Manhattan!

Taxes are high, but for entrepreneurs that's largely offset by: 1) no self-employment payroll taxes, and 2) your taxes cover your full health insurance costs. Once you add in the U.S.'s 15% payroll tax and health-insurance premiums you don't really save much in many scenarios.

charlesdm2• 9 years ago

Most entrepreneurs are after capital gains, not salary. The 24% rate seems acceptable, however, the wealth tax that then follows will force most successful entrepreneurs out of the country once they've made their fortune.

That said, how much is an "average" salary?

michaelchisari• 9 years ago

The way I always put it is that it's better to be rich in America, but most definitely, inarguably better to be poor in Norway, by almost every metric.

bschwindHN4• 9 years ago

more than SF, more than Manhattan, perhaps about the same as Tokyo

I live in Tokyo, there is no way SF and Manhattan are cheaper. I've visited NYC and found this to be quite obvious. And although I haven't been to SF except for the airport, most people I've talked to who live there always mention the high cost of living.

kenning• 9 years ago

Wow really? How much is your apartment, and how many bedrooms?

matwood• 9 years ago

Norway is the most expensive country i have ever lived in or visited

I visited Scandinavia (Bergen was one of my stops) a couple of summers back, and between the currency conversion and prices it was easily the most expensive place I have ever been. It's an amazingly beautiful area, but I doubt I'll ever go back because of the prices.

I remember sitting in a restaurant in Stockholm and commenting that maybe the prices would go down some in Norway, and a couple next to us started laughing. The other couple then explained not only were they not going down, but they are going up.

piva00• 9 years ago

Yup, I live in Stockholm and almost wherever I travel I feel my money is worth more than at home (that includes cities like Amsterdam, Munich, etc., so quite expensive places), the only exceptions have been Oslo and anywhere in Switzerland. My gosh, it hurt a bit paying for €8-10 shitty beers or €6 cappuccinos at the train stations.

sebcat• 9 years ago

Taxes are insanely high: income tax is on the level as Switzerland; VAT is 24.5%.

What's the employer payroll tax?

For comparison: in Sweden, the employer payroll tax is 31.42%, the income tax is ~30% (depending on where you live) and the VAT is 25% for most goods (food is 12% IIRC).

The employer payroll tax is a bit interesting. As an employee you never see that money, but you more or less pay it (lower wages).

netsharc• 9 years ago

The author seems to ramble a bit about how amazing Norway is, and then seems to use the article to talk to the PM on a first name basis. Does he know her personally, or would I be correct to assume he's a condescending jackass?

inimino• 9 years ago

Assuming anyone is a condescending jackass is never correct.

CRidge3• 9 years ago

If you ask a Norwegian: "Did you hear what Erna said yesterday?", everyone will know who you're talking about. That's just the kind of country Norway is ;)

Sytten2• 9 years ago

I personally worked in Denmark in a young startup. I believe conditions are similar to Norway.

I found that the tech scene is very much alive and you can find VC quite easily if you don't limit yourself to the country. The Nordic countries are well connected and it is easy to get funded by Swedish VC for example while being located in Denmark. It's also very easy to do business in the EU.

Has for the taxes, yes they are high, but you need to consider the high quality of life you get in return. It is better than even Canada where I am from. Stressed and unhappy employees are not going to perform well. I also felt there was a common goal in the company, that I wasn't just a necessary "resource" needed by the company. This is very different from the North American way.

rdtsc3• 9 years ago

Stressed and unhappy employees are not going to perform well

I like the sound of that. But I wonder why aren't there more startups then?

balladeer2• 9 years ago

Maybe because starting a startup itself comes with the baggage of stress and unhappiness - so people, in general, are less inclined to take it up in the first place?

I work at a startup in India and see how the founders are always busy and manage just 4-5 hrs of sleep at best and I've heard it was way worse in the beginning. So this doesn't paint a rosy picture. In fact I gave up on doing my own start up dream just because of this - I figured the stress and pressure isn't something I can handle or is worth the sacrifice for me. (By the way, my friend and colleague started the venture with two other people and it's doing "okay" - it's been just two years. PS - I don't regret it, from what I saw I knew I would not have been able to handle it; add the cash issue for almost 9 months - they literally lived on shoestring)

So if for someone (and I am not alone of course) who is from a country where work life conditions checks, rules that ensure a healthy work-life balance, or ensure work place safety[0] are non existent - and pretty much zero employee rights for all practical purposes, it would be even more unappealing to someone from a place like Norway where people take these things for granted. Now, what I am talking about is the general, I am sure there are exceptions everywhere.

[0] Yes, for e.g. pretty much every tech park building I have worked in in Bangalore if there was a fire either a lot of people would die in stampede, jumping from the windows, or actually in fire. Such safety checks were a joke 10 yrs ago and they still are.

Sytten2• 9 years ago

Hum, I think there are many factors to that. Just a couple who come to my mind: -The population is way smaller than USA even if you regroup all countries of the Nordic area. It would be nice to have a number per capita which would paint a better picture. -I believe the right conditions for a tech scene to emerge were recently met in most of those countries. I see a lot of nordic fintech and fintech is a relatively recent phenomena. -I think that there were not many VC around a couple of years ago. Even though it is better now, it might not be as easy to get founding than it is in the Valley. -Regulation is way more restrictive in those countries. You can't just arrive and break what I would call the social contracts (like Uber is doing for example). - etc etc

jijji• 9 years ago

Gas prices in Norway are 3.5x what they are in the u.s. Everything in Norway is about 3x the price of the u.s. Most parts of Norway are rural, even simple things are a far away drive. The people are nice, but to say that everyone speaks english over there is also a stretch. Maybe 25% speak english, if that. You also have to pay to use the bathroom. It is also very cold there most of the year. Money does go very fast over there, the fastest I have seen in any country. Is it good for a startup? If money is your concern, then no IMHO.

Sorry for telling the truth because I've lived there... :) Maybe you can find a way to delete this post and keep all the flowery ones.

lobster_johnson• 9 years ago

Norwegian here who currently lives in the US. About everything in your comment sounds wrong to me, except for the statement that gas is more expensive.

English has been part of the mandatory elementary school curriculum since 1974, and I would say that pretty much everyone knows English quite well except for a minority of older people in rural areas.

Norway being a cold, wintery country is something of a fantasy. The climate is much milder than you might except from the latitude. It's not very different from New England, though summers are not quite as hot.

sjwright• 9 years ago

I’ve only been there for shorter periods, but the only people I met who didn’t speak English were other tourists from non-English speaking countries. Every single local I met spoke English fluently.

You pay a few cents to use bathrooms, but in return you get very clean and pleasant services. I wish I could pay for bathrooms in some other cities.

Oberbaumbrucke• 9 years ago

I'm sure the wealth tax of ca 1% of your net worth per year and the weather would put off a fair few people for making the move.

CRidge3• 9 years ago

That would be my one major drawback against starting up here in Norway. I've seen calculations of how companies like Facebook would fare if they started up in Norway, and it wasn't pretty. You pay tax on the value of your shares, even if the company isn't making money...

However, for start-ups that aren't looking to have hundreds of millions of users/customers before breaking even, it is still worth a shot!

olavgg• 9 years ago

I'm from Norway and working for a startup. You do not have to pay tax for the value of your shares, but for the assets that the company own. For a tech startup that means laptops and workstations.

dawhizkid• 9 years ago

I found Oslo boring and expensive. A half pint of beer was $11 and a mediocre dish at an average restaurant will set you back at least $20.

usaphp• 9 years ago

And it’s cold as well.

Norway as a destination for tech founders

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