No Bootcamp Applicants

https://code.likeagirl.io/no-bootcamp-applicants-2374dea7d7ba

by CodeLikeAGirl • 9 years ago

26 49 9 years ago

code.likeagirl.io

jstanley2• 9 years ago

I spent twelve weeks, ten to twelve hours per day, of my boot camp working primarily on algorithms and data structures, and was tested on that knowledge every three weeks. So that can’t be the skill I’m missing.

Wow, 3 whole months? I wonder why they didn't want bootcamp applicants...

But, in general, I agree. They should be filtering by ability rather than putting a blanket ban on people who have done a bootcamp. But playing devil's advocate, I can totally see why they put a blanket ban on people who have done a bootcamp.

Also, this article was flagged, and I vouched it as I don't think it's totally unsubstantive. But I would prefer it if we lost the stars from the title.

onion2k2• 9 years ago

I've worked with developers who have 20 years of development on their résumé who haven't spent 3 months thinking about data yet. I've also worked with interns who are weeks in to their first professional role who have taught me things about data I haven't seen before. Time served is a terrible way of measuring knowledge and passion for a subject.

duiker1013• 9 years ago

Very true. There are devs that spent years of their careers changing magic numbers in code they never understood. I believe that a lot of comes down to attitude and eagerness to learn. Because some people maybe haven't even had the opportunity yet to think about data but would love to.

tzs• 9 years ago

At the school I went to, Caltech, a typical computer science class was supposed to take 9 hours per week (3 hours in class, 6 hours outside of class for reading and homework).

12 weeks @ 10-12 hours/day on algorithms and data structures would be more time than one would have put into those subjects getting a CS degree from Caltech [1], so I wouldn't dismiss it based solely on it only being three months.

[1] well, it would have been if Caltech offered an undergraduate CS degree when I was there. At the time, they only had graduate degrees in CS. They had all the necessary classes available for undergraduates, but just didn't have the program. Those of us interested in CS would usually major in math or physics or EE, and simply take all the CS classes as electives.

capkutay2• 9 years ago

there's no way those boot camp programs spend 10-12 hours a day on data structures and algorithms. that's hyperbole. they need to give their students vocational education on how to build web or mobile apps...how could they spend 100% of the time on algorithms?

mcintyre1994• 9 years ago

The curriculum she mentions later on says "introduction to algorithms", but maybe she didn't do that bootcamp?

0xCMP• 9 years ago

There are a lot of universities which taught the core CS worse, and also didn't teach any of the stuff taught in bootcamps, by Professors who were more focused on research than fixing the problem.

Barrin924• 9 years ago

Not a great article. I can completely understand the rejection of bootcamp applicants. I've personally interviewed people for algorithm / math heavy positions (explicitly mentioned in the article) and bootcamp applicants just do not cut it.

The genuine knowledge in a field like this cannot be conveyed to anybody over the course of a few months. Teaching someone with a stats or physics background to code is pretty doable on-the-job. Teaching someone years of math isn't. And it's not really possible in the workplace either.

I'm not saying that a bootcamp education is completely insufficient and there surely are jobs on the market where they make for a nice fit, but in jobs that tend more towards the theory side of things the general aptitude that someone has after years of rigorous education doesn't even compare to someone out of a bootcamp.

Not to mention that the comparison to race or gender issues in the beginning is in extremely bad taste. The question here is qualification for the job, not discrimination of a protected class.

ajross3• 9 years ago

the comparison to race or gender issues in the beginning is in extremely bad taste

Coding "bootcamps" have been broadly embraced by people trying to get programming (about as gender-selected a profession as there is) opened up to people from broader backgrounds. Obviously there are white dudes that come out of these programs too, but... no, it's not too much a stretch to imagine someone talk about "bootcamp applicants" as shorthand for post-college women looking for a change of career.

Likewise, sure, it's possible that someone is just using "bootcamp" as shorthand for "unqualified" and trying to sincerely convey the deep background required of the position. But it's not in "bad taste" to imagine something a little less wholesome either. Which is to say (pause while people get out their SJW hatchets): check your privilege a bit. It's easy for people like us who followed the rules and have the right chromosomes to imagine that injustice doesn't exist. Those closer to the problem have a different perspective.

Barrin924• 9 years ago

I do absolutely believe that injustice exists. I've seen women with extensive academic and job backgrounds be treated like amateurs by guys. That is absolutely real and needs to be combated.

But don't mix those things up when it comes to the bootcamp issue. I would rather state it the other way around. Women can complete and do deserve to get a full education. We do not need to funnel them through rushed education systems, or be afraid to evaluate candidates candidly. It is not productive to keep bad and often expensive programs alive that market themselves to people looking for a career jump.

tenaciousDaniel• 9 years ago

I've been curious about this issue, because I've been relatively successful in my so-far short career as a web developer. Yet I'm self-taught, and can't math my way out of a paper bag. I'm good at logic so that's gone a long way in helping me.

I always wonder, though, whether I'll eventually run into a math-critical issue and cannot just reason my way through it. It's a terrifying prospect, but luckily in my 5 years of dev experience I haven't faced that scenario.

jstanley2• 9 years ago

The vast majority of actual profit-generating programming that is done in the world requires almost no mathematics beyond basic arithmetic. Unless you explicitly want to get into something more maths-heavy, I think you'll be fine.

I used to do and enjoy algorithm competitions as a student, but in "real life" I've found there is almost no correlation between the complexity of the algorithms and the amount of money to be made.

duiker1013• 9 years ago

I'm in a sort of same place. What I found out is that it's never too late to go back and open a math book. It can actually be pretty fun! Especially if math is the only way toward achieving something you want.

For me for example the turning point was having to learn a lot of trigonometry to apply to an AR app. No way I could have done without, but because I was still doing something I love I got the motivation to learn.

monaghanboy3• 9 years ago

I'm always surprised when people try to connect math and physics to CS/programming. I studied differential geometry in grad school, wrote proofs and read dense textbooks daily (very rarely missing a beat), then taught myself programming/CS. I'm now four years into my career, doing pretty well.

I see almost zero connection between the two:

* CS/programming: techniques (a mathematician might refer to these disparagingly as "tricks") used to make machines do things

* mathematics: foundational truths on the study of space, quantity, structure, change etc.

The most mathematics I've ever used on the job was basic (read: finite-dimensional) linear algebra, which is a part of every undergrad math student's basic toolkit.

If you're concerned about holes in your knowledge as a self-taught web dev, I'd study core CS courses like architecture, operating systems, networks. Know what you don't know that matters (hint: it's not "math").

EDIT: there may be a strong connection between computability theory and math https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability_theory, but I don't think this field is mainstream in either core CS (could be wrong here?) or math. I've certainly never encountered it on the job.

chrismcb• 9 years ago

Probably not. There are jobs that might require some decent may, so stay away from them. But you're average programmer won't run into a math critical issue.

Grue32• 9 years ago

If you don't use math, it's almost certain that you're writing inefficient code. There's no way to estimate big-O complexity of the procedures you're writing without at least some math. Unfortunately these days it's considered ok to write chat applications that consume several gigabytes of RAM, so maybe nobody cares about efficient code anymore.

tchaffee5• 9 years ago

Teaching someone with a physics background to code while on the job is doable if you are willing to throw the code out. Programming is as much of a learned skill as any skill and expecting someone with no programming experience to quickly catch up to someone who has been studying and actually coding for a few years is not realistic.

dogma11383• 9 years ago

I haven’t met anyone with a physics degree in the past 10 years that cannot program.

Programming is required today to attain a post graduate and even graduate at physics since you’ll be programming a lot of math problems and more importantly simulations.

We have 8 CUDA programmers at my work place and only one of them has a degree in computer science/SE the rest got post grads in Physics Chemisty or Biology.

On a grad/undergrad level for the most par CompSci students would not have much advantage in programming today over Physics or other exact science/engineering students.

onion2k2• 9 years ago

Hiring is expensive, distracting and having an unfilled position can result in other staff leaving. No good company wants to leave a post unfilled. If you're capable and a good fit for the job nothing is going to stop a company hiring you. No matter what the advert says, if you can do the job and you want to work at the company just apply anyway.

But think hard about whether or not you really want to work for a company that says things like this in their ads, because you probably don't.

abrongersma• 9 years ago

Last night I had the pleasure of meeting some of the students set to graduate from the Tech Elevator Cincinnati program. I emphasized that as someone hiring developers, I'm much more interested in how the applicant approaches solutions to problems presented in the interview than clever code. I'm more interested in the potential of a new hire that can work well with the existing team instead of a know it all.

One of the questions that I was asked was "What's your go to tricky interview question"? Truth is, I don't have one. My advice for these graduates was to make sure when presented with a kobayashi maru that they do the best that they can to clarify the scope of the question before blindly falling into a trap.

I'm a bootcamp grad. I've hired bootcamp grads and will continue to hire them. If companies are that quick to eliminate potential new hires, then you likely wouldn't enjoy working for them anyway.

duiker1013• 9 years ago

While I agree it's definitely something that should not go on a job posting, I can see what it stemmed from. And it's probably the fact that they did indeed give bootcamp grads a test.

The author seems like a motivated person and while she speaks inclusively of all the bootcamp participants(a lot of "we"), I am willing to bet that many of them do not share her drive. It's also worth noting that just because someone taught you something and you studied, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can apply it to the real world. Which is why experience is probably still the best learning tool.

In the end, I do feel sort of the same even toward normal grads. I believe that it's not where your knowledge comes from but what do you do with that matters. The question then becomes, how do you weed out the bad ones? Well, we are back at square 0, with an interview.

To recap, I agree that you shouldn't have a job post like that but for different reasons than the author's.

monaghanboy3• 9 years ago

I am willing to bet that many of them do not share her drive

The flip side to this: I'm self-taught and I've worked with plenty of CS graduates from good schools who didn't strike me as particularly driven or value-adding. On the theory side, I'm not sure they could talk through a basic DS&A problem if I gave them one as well (that they hadn't seen before).

To your point, it's not where your knowledge comes from, but what you do with it that counts (and I might add, that the foundational bits exist).

EdSharkey• 9 years ago

Is there a job shortage for devs? I am fairly certain many companies are hungry for devs, female especially. Businesses love claiming diversity, after all.

Perhaps "bootcamp" as the last thing on your resume just screams that you are a greenbean and can't rightly claim competence in much of anything. Get hooked up with a technology staffing group in your area, they'll help get you placed and the sweet, sweet lucre will begin to flow your way. (Search for "IT Staffing" or "Technology Staffing".)

I suppose there is a lot that is unfair/crummy about women's experience in the workplace these days, but I'd be shocked if landing an IT job is crummier than it is for men. I observe that sane women with any decent level of technical acumen in my division get promoted more rapidly than men. So, in some companies, it'd probably be advantageous to be female.

Let's not be complainers and wallow in our victimhood. That blog post will make you quite unattractive to some employers that care to google you by-name.

timthelion4• 9 years ago

Unrelated to bootcamps, but one thing really jumped out at me in the article. The author's discussion of BigO time:

"The post went on to detail a need for an understanding of BigO time complexity, which is completely fair. No one wants a double loop in production code. What a bulky monstrosity that would be (imagining a giant disgusting swamp monster made of 0’s and 1’s, eeek!)."

"I certainly don’t want to make a messy newb mistake like creating a method with a time complexity of O(n²) or worse (cringe)."

I'm not going to be critical and say that this is wrong and that the author doesn't know what she is doing. But it does seem that this quote demonstrates a tendency I see among female advocates of women in tech, and that is to slightly awkwardly use technical terms in order to try to prove that they are part of the "in group" of people who understand technical concepts.

In this case, it seems that she is trying to prove that she knows what BigO is. I feel like this is a kind of meta-sexism. What she is doing by explaining to us the gist of BigO is saying "I think that you think that I'm so stupid that I don't know what BigO is, so now I'm going to prove to you that I do."

I know I suffer from the assumption that women don't know how to code. It's a hard thing to get around, since %90 of female programmers whom I meet are women from PyLadies who come to the local python meetup, and really don't know how to program yet. And now our author is suffering from the assumption that I assume that she doesn't know how to code. And in trying to prove otherwise, she trips over herself in her eagerness to prove my assumption wrong.

This meta-sexist thinking and behavior is getting so complicated and convoluted that it is acting to distract us from thinking and communicating on technical topics. I believe that it has become harmful to the cause of encouraging women and minorities to join our communities. It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race. And it is harder for a woman to talk about tech if she is thinking about my thinking about the fact that she is a woman.

Somehow we need to escape meta-sexism and start talking to each-other as equals, without presumption or presumption of presumption.

JazCE2• 9 years ago

I know I suffer from the assumption that women don't know how to code.

How the hell do you come to that assumption? I don't understand at all how you can make an assumption that a person knows or doesn't know something based on race or gender.

You need to check yourself because:

It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race

is not normal.

timthelion4• 9 years ago

> It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race
is not normal.

Perhaps you don't do so. But how do you know it is not normal? If you don't let me share my internal battles without attacking me, then how can you know the internal psychology of others?

monaghanboy3• 9 years ago

I thought his points were thoughtful and honest, even if a bit personal. Bias exists, in all parties (even you). No point in shaming him.

capkutay2• 9 years ago

But it does seem that this quote demonstrates a tendency I see among female advocates of women in tech, and that is to slightly awkwardly use technical terms in order to try to prove that they are part of the "in group" of people who understand technical concepts.

That has nothing to do with being a female advocate of women in tech. That has everything to do with being 12 weeks into programming. That's the main reason I don't like this article.

I'm lucky enough to know a lot of incredible software engineers who happen to be women (and were also CS grads or PhDs), much smarter than me, and I don't like this attempt to associate all women engineers with people who clearly only have a superficial understanding of code.

timthelion4• 9 years ago

I'm lucky enough to know a lot of incredible software engineers who happen to be women (and were also CS grads or PhDs), much smarter than me, and I don't like this attempt to associate all women engineers with people who clearly only have a superficial understanding of code.

I don't know that many experienced female programmers, but the ones whom I do know are not advocates and tend to avoid the subject of their gender. So my own experience leads to the conclusion that I made, not about all women programmers, but about those who advocate women in tech.

throwaway2016a3• 9 years ago

It's too bad this got flagged. I think it could have good discussions.

My problem with bootcamps is that is not how the human brain works. No one can absorb 12 hours a day of information for 12 weeks. Things get lost.

We need experience and repetition. We need to shoot ourselves in the foot by accident a few times. You don't get that in a 12 weeks.

Which is fine. I've hired plenty of people with no college but years of real world experience. I've even hired someone straight out of high school before.

The difference is when you act like the 12 weeks has taught you everything you need to know.

"wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

I've been doing this 20 years and have a computer science degree and I still marvel at what I don't know.

With that said, the company that made that job post sounds like a terrible place to work. I'd probably rather work with the bootcamp grad than whoever wrote that job listing.

Although one point... and this is right up in there with things you didn't learn in bootcamp...

It's ok to write a O(n^2) loop if n is a small number. Only optimize your algorithms if it actually has performance impact. Don't optimize just for the sake of "exponential complexity is bad." Premature optimization is a terrible thing.

tchaffee5• 9 years ago

Agreed with most of what you said, especially that this would be a good discussion. My problem with filtering based on bootcamp training is that you occasionally find someone who has been programming their whole life (as a kid) an d finally decided to get a certificate. If there is one thing I've learned about interviewing, it's to not limit your options. Instead, talk to people for a few minutes on the phone and ask your own questions instead of looking at what someone put on a piece of paper about themselves. If you don't have time for that, outsource it to a recruiting firm who will also be good at finding diamonds in the rough.

throwaway2016a3• 9 years ago

To be clear, I do not agree to filtering out bootcamp people.

greglindahl• 9 years ago

The difference is when you act like the 12 weeks has taught you everything you need to know.

I've never met anyone out of a bootcamp who acted like that.

throwaway2016a3• 9 years ago

Unfortunately I have. Everyone is different, I don't think they are all like that. Probably depends a lot on who the mentors are too.

voltooid• 9 years ago

Asking with honest curiosity, why is this post flagged? I mostly see civil discussion.

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