Allowing voting down of YC comments leads to group-think, Nazi-ism and suppressing of unpopular points of view. Do you agree?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15554

by juwo • 19 years ago

10 37 19 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

juwo12• 19 years ago

I lost 30 points in three and a half days. When I look at the fate of my last comment, I realize what's going on

http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15510

Not that I care too much. These karma points make monkeys in a cage scrambling for peanuts look more intelligent than us (future blog material for me!).

npk• 19 years ago

Though you didn't ask for it, here's my advice: try to put yourself in other peoples shoes. Jessica's not saying she stole granola bars, because they are there for her to take. She's actually complementing google, and telling her audience they are lucky to be working for such a great employer.

Why should you listen to me? You've got a cool-sounding product, my guess is people here have the ability to make it better. If you just chill a little bit, that might actually happen.

juwo12• 19 years ago

Actually it sounded like a confession and she said 'stealing'. If they are there for her to take, why hide them in her purse?

I am not faulting her at all for 'taking' the granola bars. I am certain, I might have done the same as her - but I am unrich and I would have taken them openly, in full view and so I might be justified - I think.

My comment was solely a wonderment, an observation, that a wealthy millionaire needed to do that.

I must be the worst communicator - judging from my product (juwo).

Seriously, can you look beyond what was an unpopular comment? I was trying to understand why an intellectual and financial millionaire from the cream of society did that.

Do millionaires behave differently, or do they stay the same? Or worse?

jward• 19 years ago

I really like the fact that comments count for something here. In fact I'd be happy if posts counted for nothing and only comments did. It promotes and rewards discussion, which is what I come here for. Articles are good and all, but the real value of this site is in its users.

I like to believe that the majority of people are like myself and vote up or down on things for the same reasons. Disagreeing with opinions never enters into my mind as a reason to vote down. I vote comments down when they are highly off topic, rude, or personal attacks. I use this in hopes that it sets the tone for YC News. That is, as a place for mature discussion and education about startups, not one where kittens with pancakes on their heads or flamers with four letter vocabularies are welcome.

To be blunt and honest, it is the content of your comments that is causing them to be voted down. The comment in specific that you linked to came across as a personal attack and quite rude. I'm sure this was not your intent, but that's how it came across. This comment you posted referring to members of the community as monkeys also comes across as rude. You may have valid points and questions, but you need to find better ways of saying them. When you attack the people rather than the idea, it doesn't reflect well.

juwo12• 19 years ago

personal attack? rubbish!

To say my comment was "quite rude" baffles me.

I was directly commenting on something she said in the video. Would you disallow that?

"referring to members of the community as monkeys"

Where was that?? Do you not understand my point?

-------------------

Actually it sounded like a confession and she said 'stealing'. If they are there for her to take, why hide them in her purse? I am not faulting her at all for 'taking' the granola bars. I am certain, I might have done the same as her - but I am unrich and I would have taken them openly, in full view and so I might be justified - I think.

My comment was solely a wonderment, an observation, that a wealthy millionaire needed to do that.

I must be the worst communicator - judging from my product (juwo).

Seriously, can you look beyond what was an unpopular comment? I was trying to understand why an intellectual and financial millionaire from the cream of society did that.

Do millionaires behave differently, or do they stay the same? Or worse?

veritas• 19 years ago

dramatic much? I haven't seen unpopular viewpoints voted down on YCNews yet, and perhaps your comment(s) were voted down because of reasons other than just being an unpopular point of view.

Lastly, using sensationalist terms like "Nazi-ism" and "klansman" detract from any point you're trying to make and equating (or attempting to) any members of YCNews with such terms is beyond ridiculous to put it nicely.

juwo12• 19 years ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631

far33d• 19 years ago

Nazi-ism? Congratulations, you've just godwin'd YC News.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

papersmith• 19 years ago

Nice one. This law seems to also stretch quite far beyond the internet.

juwo12• 19 years ago

see http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631

gyro_robo3• 19 years ago

Funny you should bring that up! Today when I was jogging I realized your chosen project name sounds like an antisemitic breakfast beverage: Jew-O, for Nazi astronauts. Cf. The Toyota Incubus (there's a story floating around about a product named Incubus which had to be recalled at the last minute. The culprit is alternately either Toyota, Nike, or Reebok).

juwo12• 19 years ago

that is funny!

juwo used to stand for "Julie's World", a 6 year old orphan in Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangalore, India.

see http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631

gyro_robo3• 19 years ago

I don't personally have a problem with the name, just pointing out that other people might not react to it so well. Sometimes they can't quite put their finger on it but they know the name makes them uneasy for some reason...

Also not recommended:

Snigger.com for a joke site

gyro_robo3• 19 years ago

We're just a bunch of people who want to do a start-up so we don't have to slave away for The Man. We're not, like, Gandhi, you know.

rms• 19 years ago

One thing I like about YC News is that it's rare for comments to get voted down, whereas on reddit and digg it happens like crazy.

Oddly enough, it seems like juwo is the only community member that gets voted down a lot. I'm not sure what that says. It takes a lot for me to vote a comment down and I don't think juwo really deserves it.

joshwa2• 19 years ago

juwo gets downmodded because he posts comments on nearly every article, and his posts are frequently off-kilter or ill-considered. As he says himself, he "must be the worst communicator" (http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=15510 )-- e.g., witness the really inappropriate Nazi reference in the title to this thread.

Sometimes I find myself wondering if this reflects a major cultural difference he's just not grasping fully? Or just a strange variation on John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (the "Mahir Corollary?")?

dfranke• 19 years ago

What is the Mahir Corollary? Google doesn't seem to know...

xconfig• 19 years ago

Downmodding juwo is push-back from a bored audience. Disagreement has nothing to do with it.

juwo12• 19 years ago

every article???

http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=16631

dejb• 19 years ago

What a ridiculous proposition! I disagree strongly! I'm going to vote this article down...

omouse3• 19 years ago

I vote up the submission that asks for voting down of submissions.

brett• 19 years ago

No.

Tichy• 19 years ago

It's an opportunity to learn a lesson: people in general are mean, or at least they are often different from you. While it can be frustrating, maybe it's better to know the truth than to live on in an illusion. Especially as an entrepreneur you have to harden against rejection, because you will face a lot of it. In general, nobody will understand you - otherwise, somebody else would already have done the thing you are going to do.

Overall the whole karma thing is a bit weird, as I realized yesterday when I submitted the link to Steve Jobs speech in Stanford. I found the speech really touching and felt somehow bad for getting karma for his achievement - as if I am leeching karma. Probably karma is an unlimited resource in the universe (and especially in a LISP application, as the integer type doesn't seem to have a limit in LISP) and it doesn't quite work in that way (to gain karma, you don't need to steal it from someone else). But still...

juwo12• 19 years ago

you are right about, "people in general are mean, or at least they are often different from you. While it can be frustrating, maybe it's better to know the truth than to live on in an illusion."

until you are a success.

staunch3• 19 years ago

"...felt somehow bad for getting karma for his achievement..."

You're getting YCNews points (karma) for giving us a link to good content, not for the content itself. And of course it's not like they mean much or there's a limited supply.

Goladus• 19 years ago

I agree, the downmodding of Juwo is a bit out of hand. He shamelessly self-promotes and seems to have some difficulty communicating sometimes, and many of his downmods are probably earned. But it seems overboard to me. It really feels like people are singling him out to evaluate bad comments, in cases where other posters' bad comments would just be ignored. He is getting an unfair level of attention.

It's not like he's a slashdot-digg swarm drowning out reasonable discussion. He's enthusiastic, respects this community a lot, and the site won't particularly be any better if he leaves.

It seems to me a lot like the cool kids not letting Juwo sit at their table.

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_79.php

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

dpapathanasiou• 19 years ago

I was thinking about the Juwo web site and demo in this context a few days ago: http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/04/when_only_the_g.html

He might have a fantastic tool, but because of the way he's attempted to communicate it (both on this forum and his own web site) and the rigid technical requirements (sorry, but I'm not switching to Windows and/or installing a java browser plugin), he's made it impossible to build an audience or core community of users.

Sam_Odio• 19 years ago

Agreed, I've personally been in Juwo's position too many times to count. As entrepreneurs, I'm would guess we've all had that experience where we've been labeled outsiders, ridiculed and "written off."

I've even developed a saying: "When they call you crazy, you're either extraordinarily stupid or extraordinarily smart. You can only hope for the latter."

juwo12• 19 years ago

I am definitely not "extraordinarily smart", So perhaps by your saying, I am "extraordinarily stupid"!

juwo12• 19 years ago

I do not "shamelessly self-promotes". Rather, I shamelessly promote juwo. The software, that is.

juwo12• 19 years ago

One word, in the place of your last 3 lines:

Nazi-ism: selecting out the superior strain. Or rather, what the group considers to be superior.

staunch3• 19 years ago

If your goal is to really to communicate and not just insult (which isn't clear) I suggest using something like "elitism", "snobbery", or anything else that doesn't have so much historical baggage.

staunch3• 19 years ago

Juwo: You're clearly hurt by the feedback you got from your announcement. You were brave to put yourself out there and solicit feedback, it was very respectable and ballsy. But you did a very poor job of accepting the honest criticism (that you solicited) gracefully.

Your outbursts are disruptive and you shouldn't be surprised that people don't enjoy being disrupted. For example: Did you really need to call Livingston a thief? How does that relate to startups -- even if it was remotely true?

Please just stop the bitterness and the lashing out. Put that energy into your product, where it belongs. This is a place of learning, not politics and grudges.

juwo12• 19 years ago

"you did a very poor job of accepting the honest criticism"

I think you are completely mistaken! I love honest criticism - that way, I learn. Can you please tell me where I did not accept the honest criticism?

I never called Livingston a thief. Can you point out where?

Allowing voting down of YC comments leads to group-think, Nazi-ism and suppressing of unpopular points of view. Do you agree?

Related Stories