America, Home of the Transactional Marriage

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/08/marriage-rates-education/536913/?single_page=true

by jseliger • 9 years ago

80 57 9 years ago

beebmam• 9 years ago

There really should be no financial benefit to marriage. It becomes a coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married, even though they may not want to.

jseliger• 9 years ago

More interesting, I think, is how lopsided sex ratios can affect who marries and for how long: https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/19/briefly-noted-date-onomic...

elipsey• 9 years ago

I thought that was a considered a feature, not a bug....

lotsofpulp2• 9 years ago

A legal marriage is a legal contract, and all contracts are transactional (as far as I know). I don't think it's wise to pretend that a marriage contract is different from any other, and it's most useful in cases of conflict where a 3rd party (judge, hospital, etc) needs to determine what to do.

The love aspect of it does not and should not have to do with the legal aspect. At the end of the day, putting food on the table and a roof over your kids' heads is life's priority, so finding a partner who can assist with that is understandably a prerequisite before any of this love/compatibility stuff can be built on top.

lotsofpulp2• 9 years ago

Actually, for a couple who earn about the same each, there is a marriage penalty:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/upshot/marria...

sokoloff• 9 years ago

If the tax penalty is smaller than the savings from sharing a household, it's still an advantage to be married vs single and living alone.

closeparen3• 9 years ago

The economic benefits of sharing a bedroom with another income earner will only get more powerful as we crowd into cities that don't want to grow.

DINK is on its way from being a nice bonus to baseline entry criteria if you want to live within public transit range of a job.

That doesn't require marriage, per se, but something that looks a lot like it.

roceasta• 9 years ago

coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married

Not necessarily 'stay married' because for many people there's a financial incentive to get divorced. And you can't get divorced if you don't get married in the first place.

laretluval• 9 years ago

The whole idea of marriage is to be a coercive force that pushes people away from a defect-defect equilibrium in the Prisoner's Dilemma of relationships.

icanhackit2• 9 years ago

I'd wager entertainment and advertising plays a large part in it as well. Educated people see the folly in shows like the Kardashians, daytime soap operas and ads showing material wealth as virtuous and something to aspire to. Less critical thinkers lap that stuff up and misinterpret the source of happiness and contentment. TV shows can create toxic expectations that can't be practically met by everyone, and for many people these shows have replaced community culture and personal belief systems.

The culture of material expectation could help explain the difference between Canada and the US when it comes to relationship stability and partner selection. Obviously better social welfare in Canada/West Europe is a massive driver, but it would still need to be paired with a culture where the stigma of poverty isn't as great and material wealth isn't as coveted.

compiler-guy• 9 years ago

There is remarkable data showing that the television show "Sixteen and Pregnant" reduces teen pregnancy rates in locations where it is shown. This would tend to support your hypothesis.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w...

KekDemaga• 9 years ago

Looks like the result was more positive than that though I'm curious how they came to the final conclusion: "Using data from Google Trends, Twitter, Nielsen ratings and Vital Statistics birth data, Professors Kearney and Levine found that teens who watch “16 and Pregnant” immediately go online to search for (and tweet about) birth control and abortion. Through some very impressive and fascinating dot-connecting, Kearney and Levine found that “16 and Pregnant” led to a 5.7% reduction in teen births — a percentage that accounts for one-third of the total decline in teen births: 20,000 fewer teen births a year."

alasdair_• 9 years ago

I'm almost certain that this was the initial effect, but later seasons (where every one of the cast members are reasonably wealthy due to cash from MTV) had the opposite effect.

I can o ly find 2014 data right now rhough.

Relatedly, "baby simulators" lead to an increase in teen pregnancy -https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/25/infant-simulators-teen-p...

abrichr• 9 years ago

...the difference between Canada and the US when it comes to relationship stability and partner selection.

I've never heard of such a thing, and a Google search for the phrase was unsuccessful. If you have a source I'd be interested to read more!

icanhackit2• 9 years ago

I was going by what was suggested in the featured article, and my thoughts on the matter are nothing more than conjecture based on what was implied:

Americans tend to place great importance on both marriage and personal autonomy, which is reflected in their very high marriage and divorce rates (higher than in other advanced industrialized countries, including Canada)

Relevant link embedded in the quoted text: https://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/dyb/dyb2012...

sven2-• 9 years ago

these shows have replaced community culture and personal belief systems. This can be said of the whole internet in its current state as attention sinkhole.

And its highly misguided to think critical thinking abilities have anything to do with taking advantage of ppls weaknesses. Obama, the iPhone, Game of Thrones and Star Wars are using the same mechanics that the Kardashians or Trump are - if you want ppls attention rich/poor/illiterate/educated/religious whatever - you follow the same rule - given them what they want.

zxcvvcxz• 9 years ago

The country’s exceptionally thin safety net prompts residents—especially those with less-steady employment—to view partnership in more economic terms.

Huh? This is literally the opposite of reality.

It's the poorer countries with low GDPs per capita that have thin public safety nets, and where strong marriage and family ties are a must, economically speaking.

Here in The West, we're so rich that we'll redistribute our money (tax dollars) and allow you to become a single mother.

Furthermore, name me another part of the world with fat homeless people.

Marriage is not "transactional" in the country with one of the richest countries on Earth. With a GDP per capita of 57,466.79 USD (2016), marriage is optional, and economically independent women don't need to settle with mid-tier men, especially not during the "fun years" (e.g. 18 - 30).

Remember, 80% of men are below average: https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0...

coldtea2• 9 years ago

It's the poorer countries with low GDPs per capita that have thin public safety nets, and where strong marriage and family ties are a must, economically speaking. Here in The West, we're so rich that we'll redistribute our money (tax dollars) and allow you to become a single mother.

That was then, this is now, as they say.

In the west safety nets might not be as thin as in the "poorer countries" but they have been getting increasingly thinner. And being a "single mother" is the last thing (economically speaking) anyone would wish for in today's climate.

So you're both right. Marriage is even more transactional in the poorer countries, but the article is about how it's becoming more transactional in the US too, which is indeed a thing.

Marriage is not "transactional" in the country with one of the richest countries on Earth.

That doesn't matter for those who can't find a job, or that are an illness away from being homeless and with no savings -- which are millions.

gozur882• 9 years ago

In the west safety nets might not be as thin as in the "poorer countries" but they have been getting increasingly thinner.

I can't speak for the rest of The West, but the safety net in the US has been getting better over time. Compared to my childhood it's easier to qualify for government assistance and it's easier to get medical care.

refurb• 9 years ago

In the west safety nets might not be as thin as in the "poorer countries" but they have been getting increasingly thinner.

Do you have an example?

In the US there are more social safety net benefits than 10 years ago.

ACA subsidy, Medicaid expansion, Medicare Part D, etc.

nl2• 9 years ago

It's the poorer countries with low GDPs per capita that have thin public safety nets, and where strong marriage and family ties are a must, economically speaking.

This used to be true, but over the last 15 to 20 years the rest of the world has gotten a lot richer, and safety net programs have become much more broadly available.

It's hard to compare of course, but https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/ gives some guidance.

horsecaptin2• 9 years ago

That's right, and the rest of the world's divorce rates are going up and marriage rates are falling.

lmg643• 9 years ago

This is a pretty provincial piece. Marriage has been transactional for thousands of years. To this day, the practice continues around the world. I have a colleague in the US who has an arranged marriage (he was born overseas). But of course, let's pretend that "romantic love" is the historical norm (versus recent movie invention) and we've somehow fallen from this expectation.

swsieber• 9 years ago

The divorce rate is a new thing though, right? I'd bet that even if it was an arranged marriage, if you knew you weren't going to get divorced, you'd try to find ways to love your partner...

closeparen3• 9 years ago

Recognizing domestic violence and spousal rape as outside the bounds of acceptable behavior and/or grounds for redress is also a new development, in the grand scheme of things.

Chiba-City2• 9 years ago

Large populations expecting or knowing longevity are new. Never forget we count down from Depression hysteresis and post-WW2 50% share of global wealth. We have horrible diet and health statistics here. People are wise to not marry. By way of comparison Japan's population falls faster than their economic deflation.

PakG12• 9 years ago

My immigrant mother was talking with her immigrant friends about how kids these days have it all backwards. They say you fall in love with the one you marry, not marry the one you love. I was lucky to get it both ways with my wife though, and still finding out have to work on it every day to keep it alive. That's not a bad thing, and it keeps her falling back in love with me, especially when I screw up.

zasz• 9 years ago

Actually, if you look at the hunter gatherer societies that best resemble the environment humanity evolved in, romantic love plays a big role. Such societies are often lenient about divorce as well. The !Kung San and Hadza are well studied examples of this.

scarmig• 9 years ago

Suggestions on sources for this? Not that I doubt it, but I hadn't heard that angle before.

radiorental• 9 years ago

As is often the case in such a complex issue, when someone has a penny to make the will go deep on a particular viewpoint

› In doing research for a book about workers’ experiences of being unemployed for long periods, I saw how people who once had good jobs became...

xxXXxx-4• 9 years ago

I completely agree with you. Civil marriage even today is very similar to a business partnership IMO. People give a lot of other significance to it (religion, love, faith, emotional etc.) but if you look at it strictly from just a civil/legal perspective it's essentially a specific type of legally recognized partnership.

gozur882• 9 years ago

This article seems completely unmoored from any historical context.

dangoldin• 9 years ago

This reminded me of a book I read last year that takes about the role of work and poverty in a poor, anonymous town in California. Definitely worth reading if you're interested in this topic: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0043GWQ22/ref=oh_aui_d_de...

nl2• 9 years ago

An interesting somewhat related phenomenon is the rise of the medical divorce, where a couple will divorce to protect assets from medical debt bankruptcy[1][2]. The ACA and Medicaid expansion lowered the divorce rate by a measurable amount in some population groups[3] which I find amazing.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/feeonlyplanner/2014/08/21/divor...

[2] http://www.helsell.com/helsell-news/medicaid-divorce-an-over...

[3] http://fortune.com/2017/02/16/obamacare-divorce/

kennethh• 9 years ago

I can recommend reading The Rational Male, he discusses the dynamics of marriage and you get a much better understanding after reading the books or the articles on the website. https://therationalmale.com/

Teaser: women initiate 70+% of the divorces and the reasons they do is not what is shown in the media.

America, Home of the Transactional Marriage

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