Ask HN: What programming languages to teach kids under 12 years old?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505159

by hariis • 16 years ago

18 42 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

What programming languages would be beneficial for kids under 12 years old?

Links to resources would be greatly appreciated.

the8thbit• 16 years ago

Logo?

jolan• 16 years ago

[from the other thread] There's LOGO if you want to go old school with turtle graphics:

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/logo.html

fleg• 16 years ago

http://edu.kde.org/kturtle/ - KDE4's version of LOGO. One of the advantages is that you can select language of commands - English, German, Polish and so on, so if your kid doesn't speak english it doean't mean it can't program easily.

chipsy• 16 years ago

Kids(and anyone without the preexisting motivation to try the harder problems of programming, which would include most adults too) will want something with a lot of immediate responsiveness and simple failure modes. This rules out languages needing "build systems" of any kind, languages that require hooking up a "foobar library" to do anything but console output, and languages with obscure error messages and ample means of shooting oneself in the foot.

HTML/CSS mixed with a little bit of JS is roughly equivalent to learning BASIC these days - you can throw something on the screen quickly, and add bits of functionality from there. Since errors throw exceptions, they're pretty easy to understand, and with the newer HTML features there's tons of room to grow into different domains. Plus there's a zillion resources for JS coding out there.

A good alternative, if the kids in question are not old enough to care about the prestige factor of "real" languages yet(an issue as you get near the teen years), is Scratch: http://scratch.mit.edu/ It reduces syntax to drag-and-drop while retaining some key concepts that bridge the gap into more powerful languages(conditional branches, named variables, and list manipulation)

mquander• 16 years ago

I totally agree with Javascript. Consider:

- Dynamic language, fairly concise, relatively natural syntax, lets you make simple things with no fuss.

- Powerful enough for anything.

- Extremely practical for making actual useful things.

- Huge amount of examples to look at; unless it's obfuscated, you can just click "view source."

- No assembly required -- user is already reading this post in a Javascript interpreter.

ImFatYoureFat• 16 years ago

I totally agree that html/css with js and maybe even some basic php if they are up for it is the way to go.

Sure html and css aren't languages, but couple them with javascript and a complete novice can make quite a few dynamic pages (read programs) in an afternoon.

I think one of the most important elements for introducing young children, or really anyone, to programming is providing the ability to build a complete interactive program almost immediately. This can definitely be accomplished with a few html tags and a few lines of js.

Alternatively, if you have access to a licenses for it I would recommend initially starting them out in Visual Basic Studio. It strikes me as a good balance between immediate buildableness and a easy environment to learn the basics of loops, strings, if/then, for/do, etc. Maybe a week or two in vbs and then switch them over to js.

While I have no qualms with languages like ruby or python, the call for them to be used as introductory languages seem misleading. While you can learn to build a stand alone program in them in a week or less, I get the feeling that a static box program is not going to be that exciting for most 10-12 year olds today (obviously this same problem exists for vbs)

My feeling is that to most children computers are two things, the internet and video games. Building your own video games immediately (outside of flash which isn't a terrible suggestion) is somewhat out of reach for most beginners. But building web pages, and pretty interesting ones at that, is very accessible for anyone once they get the syntax down. In truth you have to get relatively far into ruby or python before you can understand how to display a page you've build or get to very much interactivity.

timinman• 16 years ago

Except that HTML/CSS/Javascript + text editor + some kind of browser debugger = way more complicated than just typing into the console, typing 'run' and watching success or getting feedback on errors (like we did with Basic). This is why Hackety Hack (see below) is so great.

I started learning Ruby with Hackety Hack when _why started the project years ago, then plunged into Rails when I wanted to take what I'd learned online.

danie• 16 years ago

Have a look at http://news.squeak.org/2008/10/28/squeak-learn-programming-w...

bballbackus• 16 years ago

Alice[1] may interest them. It teaches the very basics of programming without having to put them through the boring initial "Hello world!" experience right off the bat.

[1] http://www.alice.org/

bcherny• 16 years ago

@chipsy Agreed completely as far as HTML/CSS. That's what I started with when I was 9. It's a great, easy, and extremely useful foundation to build on later when they want to write more involved scripts.

kouPhax• 16 years ago

SmallBasic by Microsoft. It is intended to provide a foundational understanding of programming. Comes with a nice kid friendly IDE

http://smallbasic.com/ http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/beginner/ff384126.aspx

jonp• 16 years ago

If I were 25 years younger I'd like to be introduced to Processing (http://processing.org/). I say that because my interest in programming developed because I wanted to know how how to draw interesting patterns on a screen; and I liked the mathematical aspects of that sort of program.

I think the answer in your case will similarly depend on the interest of the kids. Is the question for a general school class or for a few kids with particular interests?

hariis2• 16 years ago

I would say, for kids who would not otherwise learn programming. This language should get their interest and get them hooked.

mullr• 16 years ago

I totally agree. This is what processing is for. Even though I program as a job, a few hours with processing put a smile on my face; this is really what it used to be like. It's fun.

fleitz2• 16 years ago

I'd recommend Microsoft Small Basic http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-ca/beginner/ff384126.aspx

It has a GUI which children will expect, runs out of the box on Windows which most kids will have, and allows them to easily interact with the GUI.

The other really nice thing is that as they progress they can use the full .NET runtime library so there is a lot of room to grow with out having to switch languages.

The only real downside is having a kid grow up like this: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdwn4e_java-4ever-microsoft... [.NET vs. Java trailer] youtube took it down :(

steverb• 16 years ago

If you're not afraid of Microsoft I recommend Kodu http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/ My kids literally beg me to be allowed to program with Kodu. It's very visual and very X-Box friendly.

swombat• 16 years ago

At 9 I learned Basic.

At 10 or so I learned Pascal.

My programming finally took off around 12 when I learned C and Assembler.

I think it's important to point out that no programming language is "too hardcore" (well, maybe assembler) for a generic 12-year-old. They can learn anything.

With that, I would suggest a combination of HTML/CSS/Javascript for the quick results and Ruby for the fun and elegance. Then let them learn whatever they feel like. If they don't feel an impulse to go learn this stuff by themselves after learning 1 or 2 languages, they're probably not interested anyway.

fleitz2• 16 years ago

I have to agree, probably the only kid who cut grass to buy a C compiler (Turbo C FTW!). I think I was 14 when I started writing C.

I was pissed later that summer when I installed FreeBSD only to find out these things were free.

Most of learning to program is motivation and patience in my estimation.

jlangenauer• 16 years ago

Nah, I remember saving to buy Microsoft QuickC for Windows when I was 12 or 13. Good times, those.

ryanbigg• 16 years ago

+1 Ruby

SkyMarshal• 16 years ago

Scheme. Here's a good article on this very subject, and the benefits of Scheme as a learning language:

http://www.trollope.org/scheme.html

Linked from Paul Graham's essay Beating the Averages:

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

In a nutshell, the advantage to Scheme is that there is almost no syntax for kids to get hung up on, they can jump straight into learning computing and solving problems.

And depending on how far they go with it, they'll learn some of the more powerful programming techniques like recursion and continuations.

The book referenced in the article is The Schemer's Guide:

http://www.schemers.com/tsg.html

Two other good learning books for children are probably The Little Schemer and The Seasoned Schemer.

Racket is an easy, free, open source environment to get started in:

http://racket-lang.org

or install the package 'plt-scheme' from whatever Linux distro you're using.

snikeris• 16 years ago

Seconded. Writing the card game 'war' might be a fun challenge: http://docs.racket-lang.org/cards/index.html

modularform• 16 years ago

It really depends on the kid's interest level. If the kid is highly interested in learning how to program, most languages should be fine as long as you are there to help guide them.

If the kid doesn't really care, you might be able to spark interest with some sort of novelty, but they would probably get more out of it if you waited until they were older.

I was about 8 when I asked my dad to teach me how to program. Since I was interested and motivated, all he had to do was show me how to get started, and give me his old college textbooks. If I had lacked motivation, I imagine some more prodding on his part would have been effective, but if I had lacked interest, I don't think I would have learned much at all.

hariis2• 16 years ago

Thank you all. Please keep 'em coming.

yason• 16 years ago

Something like a C64 would be nice. That's how I learned but I'm quite much a visual and spatial person. YMMV.

The C64 had a BASIC that is easy to learn, immediate evaluation for trying things out and failing fast, and direct control of various graphics (text mode, bitmap mode, sprites). And you could do all kinds of

Someone suggested HTML+JS but I think that a simple raster display is much easier to grasp than CSS layout or vector graphics. Pling: a pixel goes bright. Plong: a pixel goes dark.

First you want to have something on the screen and then you want it moving. Coordinates conveniently introduce you to numbers and basic algebra. If you want to do crazy things, you can POKE the hardware directly.

I can't think of anything this simple in 2010.

atestu2• 16 years ago

I asked a similar question a while ago, for a 13 year old: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=428095

Got a lot of great answers.

nimrody2• 16 years ago

Can you report on what works and what does not?

Specifically, I'm interested to know whether Javascript in the browser is good enough, or too difficult to use in practice.

atestu2• 16 years ago

Actually, my brother gave up before even trying (at this age "passions" are sometimes a very passing phenomenon).

I'd recommend pygame over web development. Making a video game is much more fulfilling at that age in my opinion. Ask any 12 year old "do you want to make a video game or a website?"

For an older kid (~16), web development with APIs such as Facebook can be interesting too, because (s)he'll want to brag about it to his/her friends.

judofyr• 16 years ago

Hackety Hack is trying to accomplish this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety_Hack

steveklabnik• 16 years ago

Thanks for mentioning it. (I'm the maintainer)

I have to mention that there are still some bugs, since we're pre 1.0. These should be fixed in the coming weeks, though, 1.0 should be out for Whyday!

mfukar• 16 years ago

Well, if you want to get a kid hooked on programming, or at least grab his/her attention quickly, you should also keep the coolness factor in mind: how easy is to create something impressive and how you can promote some algorithmic and/or analytic thinking with it. With that considered, I'd suggest:

- Python or Ruby: Their syntax is intuitive (don't mention significant whitespace though ;), they have lots of libraries to quickly deal with graphics, games or the web, they're well documented without idioms that would be encountered early on and could confuse a kid.

- BASIC. I started out with it on an Amstrad CPC when I was 6 or 7. Interpreted, interactive procedural languages just feel natural to kids that age. I also learned that GOTO isn't necessarily bad (really, it isn't), and I also understood why functions are better than GOTO at a glance (spaghetti code didn't look neat or cool).

- If he/she's playing a game with a scripting language involved (like WoW with Lua scripts), try going that way. Most such languages are pretty simple, user friendly, plus results are directly visible. Exciting!

- Lego Mindstorms. One word: awesome. No, two: perfect.

- C is a little advanced, but if (s)he's interested in the inner working of a PC or a high-level data structure, it's probably one of the best ways to get down to it. Not recommended for absolute starters.

Basically, avoid high levels of abstraction and abstract concepts. A kid under 12 will probably have a hard time contemplating functional languages (although learning recursion at that age is a must). Also, if you're considering shell languages, I'd recommend Windows Powershell over bash/tcsh/etc. at least for a starter.

Ayjay• 16 years ago

I really don't think it matters what langauge, as long as they can compile and run code.

Most of us probably started with BASIC interpreters, so easy and readable code is obviously not a prerequisite. What BASIC interpreters did tend to do well was allow you to write a few lines, then run it and have it do what you said.

To answer the question then - I think any non-compiled language would be fine. I think things like Python is probably the best, as you're not required to program in an OO style, or in a functional style - just write lines, and they'll work.

Once the kids are interested and know a bit about how programming, sure, then teach them proper style. The important part is getting them to realise how to formulate thoughts in a structured manner - once you've done that, forming them in a different structure doesn't seem too hard.

macco• 16 years ago

The most important thing is to help the kids stay motivated. This happens if they have little successes. Now is the question: What is a succes to a 10 years old? Is it number printed out in command line or is it something colorful, maybe in a web browser? Personally I wouldn't recommend things like C, Assembler - the need month to leave the command line. My recommendation would be HTM/CSS - for a 10 years old this like programming - and then moving Javascript (obvious for the browser) or Python (Pygame and other fun stuff).

Remember, the most important ingredient to learning something is fun. If you got you kid started and it like what it is doing, it will choose the right programming language on it's own.

rtayek• 16 years ago

http://teachingkidsprogramming.com/

pbhjpbhj• 16 years ago

The useful content appears to be links to http://wiki.smallbasic.com/ and http://extendsmallbasic.codeplex.com/ ; though I didn't watch the video.

They use a sucky framing policy where they frame the smallbasic wiki whilst displaying their own ads. This makes me instantly distrust the domain holder - however the apparent writers are working with kids doing programming (and appear to have married since they started the site) as http://blogs.msdn.com/b/socaldevgal/archive/2010/06/17/teach... attests.

dkersten• 16 years ago

Scratch[1], because its very easy, provides immediate feedback, is fun, educational and at the end of it they will understand fundamental programming concepts like variables, conditional statements and loops. Its also a visual language, so it will be immediately more appealing to kids than text, which is, lets face it, extremely boring.

[1] http://scratch.mit.edu/

charlesdm• 16 years ago

I think it depends on the age.

If he/she is 9-10-11 I think a fun combination could be a Lego Mindstorm robot that is controlled in C. You don't have to learn them pointers from the start, just let him mess around with the basic stuff such as data types and functions.

I think you should focus on results; getting a robot to do stuff could spike his/her interest because its 'cool'! A command line window might look dull.

mrcalzone• 16 years ago

Google App Engine is not a language, but it is an environment where you can make a "hello world" web-page from scratch without much code... and it hosted and ready to show his/her grandparents out of the box.

Deprecated• 16 years ago

"Guido van Robot, or GvR for short, is a programming language and free software application designed to introduce beginners to the fundamentals of programming. GvR runs on Windows, Macintosh, and GNU/Linux, in a variety of languages. It's great in both the classroom and the home as a way of introducing people to the basic concepts of programming."

http://gvr.sourceforge.net/

Then on to python.

stevoo• 16 years ago

Lego NXT

rmason• 16 years ago

Teach them HTML and CSS. Once they've mastered that move on to CFML (using either open source distro) which are just by now just more powerful tags. Once they've mastered that move on to JQuery and pretty soon they will be quickly building useful stuff that keeps them motivated.

Ask HN: What programming languages to teach kids under 12 years old?

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