What a Border Collie Taught a Linguist About Language

https://www.wired.com/story/what-a-border-collie-taught-a-linguist-about-language/

by mcone • 9 years ago

107 64 9 years ago

tjr2• 9 years ago

I feel that my life would be missing something important without a border collie. Other dogs I have had kind of existed alongside me; my border collie seems to integrate herself into everything I do.

Highly recommend Donald McCaig's book, Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men: https://www.amazon.com/Eminent-Dogs-Dangerous-Men-Searching/...

OJFord• 9 years ago

Can you give any examples, to help (non-Collie) dog owners get past 'My dog is integrated in everything I do; there's no way yours is more so than mine!'?

conductr2• 9 years ago

I agree with the sentiment. BC's are awesome dogs.

I think it's because they are so damn smart. It's the closest thing to having a human, except all the benefits of having a dog. My dog was insanely in-tune with my body language. I don't think I trained him very well but we naturally communicated very well. I could nod my head from across the dog park and he knew it was time to go home, stuff like that. If we were walking, I could glance my eyes in a certain direction and he knew to cross the street. (I usually didn't have him on a leash).

He made judgement calls. I would watch him do stuff he knew was wrong, and I refuse to believe it was an impulse. It was calculated. You could see it was conflicted but he seriously thought it through and concluded; eating raw chicken > ramifications. I could look in his eyes and _know_ what he was thinking.... Maybe that was all in my head but I don't think so.

That said, the key is having a very smart dog. It can exist outside of the BC breed but with BC's you have a high success rate of having an intelligent dog. We've had Labs too. Some similar to the BC, others good loving dogs but just dogs. We have a Yorkie now, she's an idiot.

nrhk• 9 years ago

I walk mine without a leash and she almost never disobeys other than the occasional squirrel. They pick up on things very fast so it's very easy to get them quickly integrated into the small things in your life.

When I go shopping I'll leave all my windows completely down and she just hangs on the edge and waits, despite being able to jump out she never does. When we get back she helps carry bags back into the house.

They read humans incredibly well. Their constantly trying to predict your next move so they can take the appropriate action. so when we yell at my newphew to get away from the door the dog will physically get in his way. After a few times she just knows to do it.

Likewise she's great during parties to herd people into the right areas. I point at something she grabs it, I get angry at someone she starts growling, I don't want to be disturbed, she intercepts people getting close to my desk.

I'm sure many other breeds can get to a similar point but it might not be as easy or intuitive for them. I never tried especially hard to train my dog.

tjr2• 9 years ago

My initial statement refers to my own personal experience with border collies compared to my own personal experience with non-border collies. I really can't speak to anyone else's experience with their dogs, and I hope that everyone with a dog cherishes that relationship, regardless of what kind of dog it is.

So then what I have I found unique about border collies?

Some other posters have already shared about the border collie aptitude for communicating with and understanding people.

I think that personality traits of dogs are probably amplified by their lineage, by their breeding. Border collies (and other kinds of dogs as well) have a long history of functional utility. Many people still use these dogs to work farms and in other scenarios taking care of herds of animals. But whether if they are employed in that manner or not, it is still in their nature to assist people with work, with activities.

Border collies are described as being poor choices to have if you're not going to routinely engage them. That plausibly negative trait is probably the very same positive trait that makes them intimately interested in everything you do. If you do the laundry, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. If you clean the garage, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. If you are debugging C code, your border collie is there watching, ready to help.

Other dogs I have personally experienced seem totally fine to do things with you, but also totally fine to be off by themselves, or to do nothing at all.

I do get the impression that, to one degree or another, many dogs which excel at similar activities (herding, flyball, agility, etc.) may share personality traits with border collies.

Does all of that equate to a "better" dog? Absolutely not. In fact, I can readily imagine many people NOT finding border collie traits desirable. I've seen border collie breeders admonish would-be adopters to strongly consider other kinds of dogs unless they are quite certain that a border collie is what they want. And I would advise the same: please don't get a border collie if you're not sure.

I live in the suburbs with a good-sized yard about a block away from a large nature park. As much as I love the hustle & bustle of Boston and New York City, my dog would be miserable there.

jldugger• 9 years ago

My neighbors had a Collie, and the dog had paced around the fence perimeter so often there was a dirt trail. If you don't give them a task to do, they'll invent their own.

craigsmansion2• 9 years ago

I guess you have to live with one for a while to really notice.

I didn't notice until I started walking with other dogs. Some of these were smart and eager to please as well, but it always felt different, somehow "clunky".

Border collies seem to be able to respond to intent instead of command.

It wasn't until I started paying closer attention to this mind reading capability that I figured out I, for example, slightly tilted my head before I indicated a direction to go in. That was seemingly enough to prime my dog.

With this ability to pick up on subconscious cues, it's not hard to start feeling your border collie is not just a companion, but is an extension of yourself.

Even though this sounds great, and something every dog owner would want, I wouldn't recommend having a Border Collie.

I feel some of these desirable traits lie very close to neurosis, which can manifest itself in various ways. Some harmless, some destructive.

Also, I feel because they are intelligent and highly active, they are more prone to psychological damage.

I'd say only get a border collie as a pet if you're willing to let a dog determine a significant part of your life for a long time. If you do so, however, you will have a "magic dog".

Judgmentality• 9 years ago

I've always wanted a border collie, but until I live on a farm or have a large house with a family I just can't justify getting one. They require a lot more stimulation than most dogs.

beezle• 9 years ago

Having owned a border collie I can say they are (in general) not the best dogs to have around young kids. They tend to want to heard the little ones and may sometimes nip at ankles if order is not maintained. To an extent this behavior can be influenced by how much work the dog is getting, Genetics too - believe it or not some have a greatly reduced herding instinct. Also, a farm is not essential but daily work/activity is - flyball/Frisbee agility etc work well to.

khedoros1• 9 years ago

I grew up with a Shetland Sheepdog, and my parents still have one now. They're smart herding dogs, but much smaller than a Border Collie, and they're fine with less space.

swlkr• 9 years ago

I feel the same way about my german shepherd.

paviva• 9 years ago

German shepherds are great.

I may sound crazy, but I really believe my GSD has some sense of language and is not just barking instinctively.

His "I want to pee", "I want to eat", and "I need to poop" barks are different enough that I can reliably understand him.

When he is outside in the yard and wants to get back in, he calls me with a short guttural bark, whereas with my wife he uses a long whiny call. When we are both home, the type of call seems to correlate pretty well with the person he wants to see. It's like he's given us names.

mabub2413• 9 years ago

Really interesting article.

In regards to: "Cooperation leading to the development of language is one of the leading hypotheses for what makes human beings unique among the animals."

The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason; we possess cogitative powers. Philosophers of mind and language, like PMS Hacker, have written extensively on this topic. Humans can ask "why?", can plan, can hope, can wish, can dream, all through language. Language is an ability and allows us to reason, give reasons, and have reasons. Dogs and animals can't ask "why?" "Why?" is beyond their limit of expression because they do not possess language. They can be confused, but confusion is not asking "why?" because "why?" is a demand for reasons. Confusion is simply not knowing what is going on, while reasoning is thinking in future and past tenses, it allows us to plan and introspect.

I think the equation of whistling with full language is interesting, but it potentially reads cogitative powers in dogs when it might simply be the humans reading themselves into the dogs.

The point around cooperation is fascinating in this regard, in which case, the cooperation might be that humans reason for the dog. In other words, the dogs provide the brawn and the handlers supply the brains. We domesticated dogs because they worked for us.

agumonkey• 9 years ago

Well a lot of time I asked why and was confused. Lots of people are even more confused. They may ask why but have no clue whatsoever about anything they're looking at.

Maybe we have larger neuron capacity than animals that allows to store signals, relationships that "maybe" will later resolve that why, while they just have to accept that confusion and just go along doing something else, maybe remembering a map (context, confusion, avoid).

interfixus2• 9 years ago

The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason

So there's a body of research suggesting beyond reasonable doubt that no animal - except us - is capable of reason? Do you have a link?

Brockenstein• 9 years ago

I would be skeptical of research that says other animals are incapable of reasoning. I think it would be more along the lines of the limits of their reasoning, and other abilities to utilize the reasoning they're capable of.

Clearly there are some differences between humans and other animals, even other primates. But it's hard to quantify those exactly. If humans have reasoning score of 10, do dogs have reasoning of 1 or 5? Even the variability among people and measurable differences between individual dogs or breed of dog further complicates that.

pjc50• 9 years ago

There's significant evidence to the contrary, all sorts of animals can solve puzzles.

mabub2413• 9 years ago

Do you have evidence that animals can reason? Have you seen an animal give or express a reason for planning to do something in 3 days or 4?

Animals may end indecision, but ending a state of indecision is not the same as choosing something for this or that reason. The limits of thought are the behavioral expression of thought. With the absence of language, it is nonsense to apply rational thought to animals. That's even in the article itself when they discuss how animals displaying complex behaviours can fall a part when presented new problems. That doesn't mean they don't think. Far from it. It means they do not have the same cogitative powers that we have.

Analytic philosophy has touched on these ideas at length starting with Ludwig Wittgenstein. Two good books on the subject are PMS Hacker's series, which, coincidentally, often use dogs as an example:

1. Human Nature: The Categorical Framework 2. The Intellectual Powers: A study of human nature

(I should add that PMS Hacker's series heavily interacts with cognitive neuroscience.)

jpttsn• 9 years ago

Sure, the fossil record ;) Animals who reason well enough to encroach our comfortable territory atop the food chain, tend to get killed off by H. Sapiens. The animals we see around are those whose tepid reasoning abilities we can abide.

oh_sigh• 9 years ago

Why is language required to ask why?

Dogs and animals can't ask "why?" "Why?" is beyond their limit of expression because they do not possess language

mabub2413• 9 years ago

Because dogs have no means to express the concept "why?" Animals don't plan in an animate sense in any form observable in the same way humans do.

See the quote from Hacker's "Wittgenstein: Comparisons and Context" here:

"The limits of thought are the behavioral expression of thought. It is perfectly possible, in certain circumstances, for an animal to think and not show it. But it makes sense to ascribe thinking to an animal only insofar as the animal's behavioral repertoire includes such behavior as would express what the animal is said to think."

garrybelka• 9 years ago

My shepherd is by no means special yet he asks 'Why?'.

He plans, hopes, and most definitely has and could express wishes. And while his intelligence is limited and very material in a pragmatic way he does possess a language (that I'm still learning) and he could reason.

He is not into abstractions, but, perhaps, could master one or two with a sufficiently tasty motivation. But he understands generalisations, conditionals and iterations.

coldtea2• 9 years ago

Dogs and animals can't ask "why?" "Why?" is beyond their limit of expression because they do not possess language.

Citation needed.

sqeaky• 9 years ago

I think you are confusing inability to communicate with inability to think.

Many animals are dumb, Many are smarter than we give them credit for. In past few decades there have been a great many papers indicating some animals can do things just short of what we can do and many people used to think that animals could think, feels emotions, learn by trial/error or even communicate.

You are making an assertion "No animal thinks 'Why?'" without evidence. You could be right or wrong, but you have chosen an odd place to stand. You are inside an ever receding pocket of ignorance.

woodandsteel• 9 years ago

The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason; we possess cogitative powers.

I agree that human language makes it possible for human beings to do all sorts of cognitive things that animals can't.

That said, you are making the term "reason" have a single meaning, whereas there are actually many types of cognitive activity, some of which animals can do, and some of which they can't. You really need to be more specific about the different types of reasoning, and each different type of reasoning should get a distinctive label.

lazyant• 9 years ago

whistled language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbo_Gomero

ardit33• 9 years ago

The smartest dog I had was a Border Collie/Breton Espanol mix. Very curious, very smart at learning new things. I miss her.

They need a yard/open space as they are very lively dogs, and we have a large backyard. They are not meant to be apartment dog.

computator• 9 years ago

Rico could infer the name of a third, unfamiliar object when presented with it alongside two of his toys. Chaser could learn names by exclusion and remember them, just like Rico.

Neil Degrasse Tyson demonstrates the above with the actual dog Chaser:

https://youtu.be/_6479QAJuz8?t=66

I almost always prefer the written explanation rather than watching a video, but this is one case where it's worth seeing.

What a Border Collie Taught a Linguist About Language

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