Elon Musk: Correcting the Record About My Divorce

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elon-musk/correcting-the-record-abo_b_639625.html

by aresant • 16 years ago

165 118 16 years ago

aresant• 16 years ago

"The legal and accounting bills for the divorce total four million dollars so far, which is an average of roughly $170,000 per month for the past 24 months."

Wow.

abstractbill• 16 years ago

The lawyers always win.

Retric• 16 years ago

He is paying for both party's so she has no reason to skimp on legal fee's. But assuming a 50/50 split it works out to ~500$ / hour * 40 hours a week, for each of them. Which is probably just 1 full time layer + some part time help for each of them.

russell_h• 16 years ago

Serious question, does a divorce like that really require 2 years of full time work for each party?

wmf3• 16 years ago

Dupe: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1498914

Curiously, neither site says where this comes from.

faramarz• 16 years ago

What do you mean? The Huffington post is written by Musk himself.

wmf3• 16 years ago

Did he spam this to a bunch of news sites or did he send it to one and the others copied it? Usually there's more attribution. e.g. if BusinessInsider copied it from HuffPo then they should probably give credit.

mcantor• 16 years ago

The Huffington Post post?

alanh2• 16 years ago

For shame. I don’t understand how someone can be so greedy as to try to take wealth their ex-parter created after explicitly agreeing not to do so!

Edit: And due to lawyers’ fees, the couple’s net worth is decreased by millions in the process.

pavs4• 16 years ago

For this reason I don't see myself ever getting married. I can't even fully understand my childhood friend, how will I know if the women I married will not drastically change 10-15 years from now and use it against me knowing very well that the system is in her favor? There is nothing you can do, even a pre-nup is not safe.

Thanks to the divorce culture of USA, why would any sane person would want to get married?

For me the worst part of this case is that she was offered 80 million, 4 times more than what she was entitled for.... and she wants more?

Utterly despicable.

loewenskind4• 16 years ago

>after explicitly agreeing not to do so!

This wasn't done in a prenup, it was done at a later stage in a legally (at this point anyway) ambiguous manner.

acangiano3• 16 years ago

The lesson here is: marriage is a very risky proposition, particularly if you are male or much richer (even just potentially) than your partner.

(PS: Much respect for Musk.)

petercooper2• 16 years ago

The lesson here is: marriage is a very risky proposition

That depends who you are, who you're marrying, and where you live. Divorces are only this expensive and drawn out in a handful of countries, and milking your ex-partner for all they're worth is a similarly non-universal trait.

Further, some people simply don't have this mentality or a single retributory bone in their body. Those are the people you marry.

FluidDjango• 16 years ago

Guess you'd better be psychic enough or psychologist enough to be able to assess someone's "retributory bones" ...or their ability to grow them when they feel aggrieved against you.

MikeCapone2• 16 years ago

It can be a risk. But a good partner can also be an asset. In the book The Millionaire Next Door, many of the interviewees credit their spouses (usually a wife) for helping them succeed and keeping expenses low.

You still have to pick the right partner, but if you can do that, it could be a big plus.

But hey, I'm getting married next month, so take what I say with a grain of salt ;)

acangiano3• 16 years ago

> But hey, I'm getting married next month, so take what I say with a grain of salt ;)

I'm happily married (6 years in October) and I believe my wife is a great asset to me. However, I believe that marriage remains a major financial and emotional risk.

elai3• 16 years ago

Get romantically married, but don't sign a contract with the government! By not singing some paperwork you can both avoid of alot of problems (but not all). Frame it like this: honey, I want to get married with you, not sign a business contract with you. Or I want to get married with you, not with the government too!

redsymbol• 16 years ago

But hey, I'm getting married next month, so take what I say with a grain of salt ;)

Congratulations :) In spite of the subject matter of this story, let's send well-wishes ahead of a joyful and successful marriage for you both.

tbrooks• 16 years ago

Risky, yes. But worth every bit of it if you marry a good one.

pavs4• 16 years ago

Have you been divorced and milked out of your hard earned money? If not, how would you know if it's worthed?

barmstrong• 16 years ago

This whole thing is a bit surprisingly to me since it seems like Elon covered his bases with the separate property agreement. Yet it still has been a major hassle for him money wise.

Gene Simmons (from the band kiss) has an interesting approach to this which he wrote about in his book. He never married his long time partner and playboy playmate Shannon Tweed. But he took it even a step further having her and other live in girlfriends sign documents stating that despite living together they would not become common law married.

Trump is ok with marriage, but puts strong pre-numps in place.

Anyway, it's reading articles like this that can really turn you off to marriage as an entrepreneur. It's hard to say whether you're going to be in love with someone in 20 years, much less 1 year, so why put a legal contract on it? It might make more sense to vest your marriage over time or just take your partnership one day at a time without a contract.

wmf3• 16 years ago

vest your marriage over time

AFAIK some state laws have this feature; the wife only gets half after ten years or something.

rumpelstiltskin• 16 years ago

the wife only gets half after ten years or something

You mean 'spouse' right?

Edit: Granted, there may not be very many instances (or any for that matter) where the man is going after the woman's wealth, but the point is that the provision applies to both parties.

julius_geezer• 16 years ago

Common-law marriage is recognized in about three states, as I recall.

elai3• 16 years ago

It fairly common throughout all of canada. Probably in various countries in europe too.

joubert4• 16 years ago

According to wikipedia, 13.

loewenskind4• 16 years ago

>This whole thing is a bit surprisingly to me since it seems like Elon covered his bases with the separate property agreement.

This agreement was put in place after they were already married, right? That's what this case is basically about: determining if an agreement made in such a manner is valid.

ZachPruckowski• 16 years ago

The article suggests that the document was negotiated over a 3.5-month period, with the wedding occurring part-way through it. It's not unreasonable to claim that both parties went to the altar with a basic idea of what was going to be in the final draft.

cullenking• 16 years ago

It's amazing that someone could have enough genius to revolutionize the internet (paypal enabling easy ecommerce), revolutionize space flight and are attempting to revolutionize personal transpost, but can not successfully navigate the california legal system.

All jokes aside, Elon Musk is a freaking inspiration and it sucks to see their creative potential squandered by a lame court battle.

lionhearted• 16 years ago

> What caught me by surprise, and forced me to seek emergency loans from friends, were the enormous legal fees I had to pay my ex-wife's divorce lawyers. In a California divorce, the wealthier spouse must pay both sides of the battle even if they are not the aggressor.

> The legal and accounting bills for the divorce total four million dollars so far, which is an average of roughly $170,000 per month for the past 24 months. Journalists were quick to mock the poor "broke" guy that had $200k a month expenses, failing to note that legal fees constituted the majority.

That's utterly despicable - Grellas, can you help us put together a plan to disbar and exile everyone involved in the divorce racket or something? Talk about a destruction of wealth, energy, time, and life - it's embarrassing that we let this happen to people in the United States.

Our family/divorce courts and the associated personnel are destructive, vindictive, and capricious. This needs to change. Why do people stand for it? What can we do?

pohl• 16 years ago

What can we do?

Abandon the institution of marriage entirely. Nuke it from orbit, as it were. It's the only way to be sure.

The legal end of it is a mere wealth-redistribution mechanism. The social end of it is made of community who loves to witness people getting into marriages, but they scatter during the demise. So what function does it perform? From my perspective, it only serves to weaken commitment by trying to offload the responsibility of staying together to a legal framework.

Can anybody make a good case for continuing the charade?

commanda• 16 years ago

Actually, yes.

Many marriages are entered into by two parties with the agreement that one party will be the primary caretaker of the children (home-maker), which is a profession that is unpaid. The other party will work outside the home and provide money for the family. In that case, the years of work that the home-maker has put in should be recognized as valid work, and in the event of a break-up of the marriage, the home-maker should continue to receive monetary support from the other party, as they (often) have no viable other professional skills. This needs to be enforceable in court in the interest of people whose profession is home-maker.

This is also why gay marriage (and gay divorce) should be legally codified like straight marriage is. People need legal recourse to persist their own standards of living.

If someone entering into a marriage does not want to take on the lifetime of responsibility of providing for the person who is promising to take on the role of home-maker in their household, perhaps they shouldn't enter into a marriage.

elai3• 16 years ago

If you live with someone in a committed relationship for more than two years, your automatically entered into a common law marriage, even if you don't realize it. It's hard to avoid it if you want a relationship! How do common-law divorces work?

jamesseda• 16 years ago

Marriage is a way to call a guys' bluffs. Plenty of guys will say they are in love and committed forever to keep a relationship going. But the reality is they would move on to a younger girlfriend every 5-10 years if they could. Marriage makes men put their money where their mouth is.

cromulent• 16 years ago

I'm not convinced that abolishing marriage would end the wealth-redistribution system.

I'm not worried about the external social part of it, but the personal part of it is that many people (including myself) enjoyed both getting and being married. Obviously, YMMV.

I guess that marriage has some "legal framework" but I've never even thought of it in that way. To me it is a personal declaration of two-way commitment, made in front of friends and family, and it's worth as much, and as little, as how you live by it. Same as any commitment, I guess.

I like being married. It's not a charade to me. If you don't like me being married, because you don't like divorce lawyers, so be it.

w1ntermute2• 16 years ago

This is what you get for voluntarily involving the government in your personal matters.

What bugs me most about the entire gay marriage debate is that it implies that the government should have control over the institution of marriage. The solution to the gay marriage debate is not to make it legal for gay people to get married, but to make it so that the government doesn't decide who can get married.

arebop• 16 years ago

What politician wants to be "anti-marriage?" So, it's politically infeasible to discontinue marriage (or more specifically the government's involvement in marriage).

Reforming marriage laws to apply equally regardless of sexual orientation or to simplify divorce, on the other hand, do seem more like near-term achievable goals.

ebiester• 16 years ago

There are far-reaching effects to be considered.

For example, immigration sponsorship. As a gay man with a non-American partner, this comes to mind first.

Currently, spouses do not have to testify against each other in court. This isn't codified in any law but British Common law (afaik). There are a few of these pleasantries that would have to be figured out.

Then, there are over 1,000 legal rights codified into contract law. Some of these can be emulated (power of attorney), some cannot.

It's a hard problem.

joubert4• 16 years ago

Are you willing to campaign to remove government-sanctioned marriage? Do you think it is a feasible position?

dschobel• 16 years ago

How is it a racket if he entered into the marriage contract of his own volition?

It may be a rigged game but he played it voluntarily.

portman2• 16 years ago

There are even worse stories.

My parents divorced two years ago. I was paying my mother's attorney bills because she had no money and hadn't had a job in 35 years.

After the first bill from my mother's attorney, for $15,000, I asked the firm to cap expenses at $5,000. I explained that I was just a kid and didn't have $15k per month to spend. They agreed, in writing.

Then they didn't invoice for 4 months, and at the end of that 4 month period (when nothing really happened in the divorce), they invoiced for $175,000.

Yes, $175,000.

It's currently in arbitration with the Virginia State Bar, two years later. Hopefully we'll prevail, but it's not looking good.

Divorce attorneys are the lowest, most predatory "profession" on the planet. Exorbitant divorce fees are not just a plight of the wealthy.

I have no solutions, and hope Grellas can weigh in on this thread.

portman2• 16 years ago

I know it's considered gauche on HN to say "thank you" for upvotes.

But thank you.

(I'm assuming the upvotes are a way of saying "I'm sorry dude, I feel your pain". If so, they are much appreciated.)

dkarl• 16 years ago

My ex-girlfriend's story of her divorce was similar. It was an extremely hostile, nasty divorce with custody at stake and accusations of mental health issues on both sides, but she and her husband managed to agree on one thing: after many months of legal fighting, they agreed that they were being systematically bled by the lawyers. The lawyers were concocting reason after reason to drag everyone into court and file ungodly amounts of paperwork. They were nowhere close to being divorced, and it looked like it would take years.

Her lawyer (an older, grandfatherly gentleman) treated her in an apparently very caring manner, repeatedly calling her at night to see if she was okay and discuss minor issues of the case, always managing to get her upset and then spend a couple of hours comforting her and giving her advice. Then she found out he was billing for that time, so she stopped answering his calls after five o'clock.

Her husband had a similar realization that the case had turned into them against the lawyers, so they agreed to simultaneously fire their lawyers and hire new ones. Then they went back to hurling neglect, abuse, and mental illness accusations at each other and fighting over custody. Years later, having lived in separate states for many years, they can barely stand to talk on the phone three or four times a year to coordinate on the daughter going to see his side of the family. But in the middle of a nasty divorce, they managed to agree about the lawyers.

stavrianos• 16 years ago

If the wealthier spouse ceases to be wealthier throughout the process (hypothetically, because of astronomical lawyer's fees), are the tables turned?

cabalamat3• 16 years ago

> In a California divorce, the wealthier spouse must pay both sides of the battle even if they are not the aggressor.

Don't tell me, let me guess: it was lobbying by lawyers that created that law, right?

heretoo• 16 years ago

Change countries. However, I've noticed that boycotts don't have the desired effect, when the market is too big. This probably applies to countries as well, so look out for number one, and get out anyway.

rsheridan6• 16 years ago

>What can we do?

The equivalent of the flat tax for divorce: some very simple, predictable rules that require little or no arbitration. Suppose the rule was that Elon gives x% of his assets to Justine within y months of the divorce, plus $z/month, end of story. No lawyers or court fees need to be involved.

tomjen32• 16 years ago

Of course it is - it is marriage in California - properly the most loopsided situation outside family court.

neilc3• 16 years ago

Why is this on HN, and the top story no less? Gossip about celebrities is boring, even if the celebrity happens to be a famous geek. I'm not one to bitch about off-topic stories, but I'm genuinely curious why people find this story to be interesting.

andreyf• 16 years ago

Elon Musk co-founded PayPal, SpaceX, and Tesla Motors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk

neilc3• 16 years ago

Yes, I am aware of who he is. Why is his divorce any more interesting because of the companies he has founded?

jaekwon• 16 years ago

Geek Empathy.

Geek empathy, unlike classical celebrity gossip, does not travel through word of mouth or through paper tabloids, but rather is propagated via digital electronic pulses, and is registered via upward pointing triangle receptors (▲).

daniel-cussen• 16 years ago

I believe the divorce proceedings have affected his companies.

huhtenberg• 16 years ago

Basically it is an intelligent and well-written PR piece. Something to learn from.

tomjen32• 16 years ago

As a warning to other entrepreneurs: you can either get married or make a company, but dammed is the poor fool who does both.

neilc3• 16 years ago

That seems like precisely the wrong lesson to draw from this experience.

jboydyhacker2• 16 years ago

To be honest I have never been what you would call a huge Elon Musk fan but this was a very well laid out case. The amazing part of course is even though he had a prenup, the judges and lawyers have allowed this to go on so long he has huge legal fees. I have seen this happen to several entrepreneur friends of mine--in fact (true story)-- I know what entrepreneur who had a prenum and divorced and remarried the same woman TWICE. Got soaked both times even w/ prenup. People should be able to get married in the United States without the risk of massive wholesale wealth transfer.

jacquesm6• 16 years ago

> I know what entrepreneur who had a prenum and divorced and remarried the same woman TWICE. Got soaked both times even w/ prenup.

That doesn't sound too clever to me. Once bitten twice shy right ?

jboydyhacker2• 16 years ago

The guy married her before his first startup...sold it for 800m...she divorced him. He was on is back. Did another startup--remarried same woman. Divorced again. Taken to bank both times. Prenup thrown out both times. It ain't right.

loewenskind4• 16 years ago

>even though he had a prenup

He didn't have a prenup. If he did the case would probably already be over.

yardie2• 16 years ago

Prenups can be disregarded for all types of reasons. The main one I've heard is when one spouse makes, whats considered to be, unreasonable conditions, ie., "Sign this contract or I won't marry you".

That's why Elon put in their that little line that witnesses and council were there for the postnup. If one spouse has council and the other doesn't when they sign a prenup. that prenup is toast.

edw519• 16 years ago

You'd think someone as smart as Elon Musk would have followed the advice of Felix Dennis: "If it flies, floats or fornicates, always rent it.. it’s cheaper in the long run."

thaumaturgy• 16 years ago

My girlfriend has been an amazing source of support while I've been working on my business. I won't say I couldn't've done it without her, but it would certainly be less fun and a bit more challenging.

9oliYQjP2• 16 years ago

"My girlfriend..."

So you're following Felix's advice then :-)

d0m• 16 years ago

Please don't flame me, but that's the kind of post doesn't really interest me on hacker news. (There are really few of them thought). If all news were like this, I would stop using HN.

robryan• 16 years ago

By the same token if every story on hacker news focused exclusively on startups/programming and startup related business I think I would spend less time. It's the balancing act that you need to have when you have many different personalities and backgrounds on the site all viewing the same front page. This has over 100 upvotes so I do think a decent amount of people are interested.

araneae• 16 years ago

I should have just seen that this was from Huffington Post and not bothered clicking.

winzie• 16 years ago

I feel bad for the guy. I would buy Tesla stocks if I had the money.

bluethunder• 16 years ago

Musk is an icon I cannot admire enough.

His ex-wife is a gold-digger blogger I cannot hate enough. The least she could do is to leave him alone with his work.

impeachgod• 16 years ago

Can you end a marriage without requiring the services of predatory divorce lawyers? As in, a wife and husband having a "gentleman's agreement" to divide children and property?

dagw• 16 years ago

Varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in many places yes (with a caveat). You both show up at the relevant office, fill in some paper work, pay a small filing fee and you're basically done (many places have a separation period between the paperwork being filed and the actual divorce kicking in).

The caveat being that even if you do it this way there is nothing stopping one of the spouses suing the other after the fact for access to the children or more money, so you're not completely off the hook if your spouse later decides to get vindictive.

binarray2000• 16 years ago

Would you enter a business agreement in which your partner has the right to break the deal whenever he wants and take at least the half of the things that you brought into the relationship (prior and post agreement)?

mkramlich• 16 years ago

why is divorce so complicated that lawyers can justify charging so much? at it's simplest it could be a form that the two spouses sign and date, perhaps with witnesses, then you submit it somewhere. i realize there can be disagreements about who gets what and that may take time to negotiate, but why would that require thousands of billable hours by lawyers? This is not rocket science, no programming needed, just people talking to each other, and only 2 needed at a minimum. Plus divorces are so common and have been happening for over a century I imagine, so you'd think it would be highly standardized and streamlined by now. UNLESS perhaps lawyers/lawmakers were themselves trying to keep it complex and manual to preserve job security.

anybody? anybody? grellas?

Elon Musk: Correcting the Record About My Divorce

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