China's bloggers, filmmakers feel chill of internet crackdown

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-internet-content-idUSKBN19O21X

by davidst • 9 years ago

138 93 9 years ago

Reuters is blocked in China. China has been "closing" for 5 years now. According to "china watchers", this is expected to continue. Blame Xi.

seanmcdirmid5• 9 years ago

5 years? China has been closing ever since the Olympics ended in...2008. Its been almost a decade now. Theory is they'll start opening up again in the run up to 2022...they can't really hold an Olympics while blocking all the major worldwide internet sites, too much face lost.

This definitely isn't just Xi's fault.

mtgx• 9 years ago

It's almost like having a single political party is a bad thing for a society or something.

AznHisoka• 9 years ago

Newbie question but what is China's rationale for their internet censorship and firewall? What are they afraid of?

shp0ngle• 9 years ago

You can't make socialism with too much freedom. People would look at homosexual stuff and wouldn't go to party meetings.

diggan• 9 years ago

Eh? Don't think socialism is to blame here. Sweden, as an example, is a very socialist country and also with a high degree of freedom to look at whatever you want (almost).

odiroot2• 9 years ago

They care about social harmony. Don't want to make people upset.

That's the official version.

It's most probably about rejecting the influences from the West, preservation of Chinese culture. Recently there's also quite a huge war on influence of Korean culture.

visarga2• 9 years ago

Just as Fox News won't tell the truth, and hold on to their line even in the face of evidence, so do the Chinese. Most of us are guilty of not trying to be inclusive enough with other people and prefer to live in our little bubble. There is always a cost for that - just look at what happened in 2016-17.

melvinmt• 9 years ago

They've known for ages that the biggest threat to China is not some foreign enemy but China itself. This also applies to the US btw, we just haven't fully realized it yet.

netcan2• 9 years ago

The concept they use is “social harmony.”

This is a sort of shorthand for discouraging people from developing strong, dissident, aberrant or divisive political positions. Discouraging people from taking on political identities in general, other than a unified chinese identity. Discouraging people from disparaging and/or distrusting the government. Keeping fringey social trends out of the mainstream.

If you think of how strong political identities are currently in the US, this is exactly what they are trying to prevent. They want to keep everyone on the same page in terms of political and social norms.

The skeptical take is that the CCP is protecting itself from popular and democratic revolutionary movements.

mistermann9• 9 years ago

It doesn't seem like a crazy idea to me at all. Nationalism and solidarity among citizens has always been a great source of unity in countries, but in the last decade or so it seems to become interpreted as a cardinal sin, and has has split several countries down the middle.

If I was leading China I'd most definitely want to keep this sort of bizarre thinking out of my country.

perlpimp• 9 years ago

China will consider democracy only when the credit bubble pops which will delegitimize the Communist party. Tianamen square was at the inflection point when Investment flooded into corrupt post maoist china, democratic movement was everywhere but was quashed by increasingly belligerent communists apparatchiks.

coldtea5• 9 years ago

The skeptical take is that the CCP is protecting itself from popular and democratic revolutionary movements.

On the other hand, a country with 1.x billion people and several languages/ethnicities can become a huge hell-hole without social harmony.

This "revolution" thing didn't end that well in Libya, even if they managed to get rid of the old leader. Same with the "democracy" that was re-installed in Iraq and elsewhere.

So, one has to be careful what they wish for.

Baeocystin8• 9 years ago

What are they afraid of?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation

coldtea5• 9 years ago

Newbie question but what is China's rationale for their internet censorship and firewall? What are they afraid of?

Aside from the CCP wanting to maintain its control in-land, there's this little real issue, that 80% the internet is mostly controlled from a handful of companies, all in the hands of foreign nationals (who are all "patriotic" and all reside in countries other than China).

That is, things like search, social media, etc services are not a neutral international ground, but mostly dominated by a single country's companies. Those foreign countries get to siphon the data, dictate what's acceptable, promote their culture, viewpoints and national interests 24/7, censor or bury what they don't like, etc.

So, while lesser countries might bend over and take it, it makes sense for a country that is a superpower in itself, and has billions of people, to take control of its own web and have its own search, social media, etc -- orthogonally to if they censor them or not.

Ask yourselves: if Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft where e.g. Russian or Chinese, would the US (as a state and as citizens) be using them them all the same?

em3rgent0rdr7• 9 years ago

It is not just the foreign aspect. China government will shut down private Chinese actors who voice opinions or provide an independent platform which goes against the party line.

pizzetta3• 9 years ago

I think the Answer is yes.

We had no issue with Nokia or Toyota. We consume Anime. Lots of companies use Kaspersky despite apparent ties to RU intelligence services. There is some talk of the DoD pulling out from a contract --but that's DoD and I imagine Chinese version of DoD would do something similar.

_ptgt2• 9 years ago

The CCP is the only political party in China and is willing to do whatever it takes to keep it that way. The CCP is also known for abducting journalists for reporting on "rumors" (i.e. reporting on stuff the CCP doesn't like), the Tiananmen Square massacre, hiring an army of paid internet trolls to advance the party line on domestic and foreign websites, and trying to set up an Orwellian "social credit" system where things like support for the party line affect whether you can take out a loan from the bank or use the public transit system. I could go on but I think you get the point.

EDIT: Not sure why I'm being downvoted, everything I mentioned has been widely reported on and can be confirmed in ten seconds with a Google search.

visarga2• 9 years ago

Probably not Xi's problem but China will lag economically and creatively because of this restriction. It's just ceding the entertainment initiative to other creators, outside of China. Even if they ban all creative content from outside China, don't they know that a terabyte HDD can hold enough movies to last for a year, and be copied easily?

nickrio• 9 years ago

Ha! CCP don't give any shit about creativity.

They want to be in control, including controlling creativity.

In fact, if you're a Chinese people like me, you probably learned CCP's "Three Represents" when you in mid school. Which is:

- "Represents advanced social productive forces" stands for economic production

- "Represents the progressive course of China's advanced culture" stands for cultural development

- "Represents the fundamental interests of the majority" stands for political consensus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Represents

What that said is:

- We (CCP) decide what is important to this country

- We decide what you can do when you're boring

- We decide what you can have (and your needs)

So, I won't be surprised one day we had that Sea Ban thing and what's followed all over again.

FYI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin

themodelplumber• 9 years ago

Wow, I didn't realize that Japan had mimicked this sea ban. I only knew about the Japanese version.

But how could such a move be reconciled with China's recent expansion into global politics?

mistermann9• 9 years ago

Well, it certainly seems to be working, as most western countries seem to be coming apart at the seams, China continues its breathtaking transformation.

sven-67• 9 years ago

Given the ever increasing amount of garbage on the Western internet being pumped into peoples minds 24*7 I find it incredulous that people believe the western internet is an healthy environment that fosters creativity. People including the best in society seem to be spending much more of their time reacting to information overloading their minds. At least the Chinese are doing something about it. The west has it head deep in the sand.

likelynew• 9 years ago

In a way it has also brought creativity for many things. Baidu and others can't exist without this. And I think it is very wrong to say that there is no creativity in copying.

owebmaster• 9 years ago

Will lag compared to what? Not to China from 10/20/30 years ago.

ePierre• 9 years ago

Well... Fortunately, there is still Taiwan, the only Chinese-speaking country where creativity and freedom of speech is nurtured and not censored!

seanmcdirmid5• 9 years ago

Well, Singapore isn't that bad. Regardless, I'm not sure what Taiwan is going to save us from.

xiaoma• 9 years ago

Singapore's not that bad as long as you're not gay (which is illegal and punishable by a prison term), a political activist for the opposition party, too independent thinking or otherwise labeled as undesirable by the government.

forkLding• 9 years ago

In terms of cultural-inspired creativity, Taiwan isn't a great representative of Chinese creative media, Taiwan can only represent certain parts of the Southern Coastal and South-Eastern China/Asia culture in terms of where they draw inspiration for their creativity. Also the general Taiwanese "creative media" industry like films isn't particularly welcoming to Mainland culture or influences.

indescions_2017• 9 years ago

Another fascinating "censorship" story playing out right now:

Tencent Loses $14 Billion After Criticism From Chinese Media

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/tencent-loses-14-billion-ho...

To call this "chilling" is a gross understatement!

prklmn• 9 years ago

To say they lost $14b is not even remotely true. Their stock dropped $14b in market cap. they are certainly making money on the game, not losing money.

thinkfurther• 9 years ago

So, 4 something percent. Do you find this chilling, too?

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/11/investing/donald-trump-press...

Trump said that many companies were "getting away with murder" and that there would be more competitive bidding practices for federal contracts in his administration.
Dow component Pfizer's (PFE) stock fell more than 2% immediately after the comments.
Mylan (MYL), which has already come under Congressional scrutiny for dramatic price hikes of its life-saving allergy medication EpiPen, fell 3.5%, and Bristol-Myers Squibb dived 4%.
Allergan (AGN) and Valeant (VRX), two other biotechs that have been criticized for raising drug prices, also fell more than 3%. And the iShares Nasdaq Biotechnology ETF (IBB), which owns many of these companies, fell 3% too.

That's just the first hit for "stock prices fell after criticism". There's plenty of that, and four percent are nothing. What's so chilling? That 4 percent of anything can mean billions of dollars? The mechanism of stock markets? That social media and "traditional media" have this reach and effect just by things being said? That the gaming industry became this huge and heartless after such short time, and how some in it would LOVE to be able to "capture" audiences like the pharma industry can? None of these things? Or really just mostly the Chinese Communist Party, the one thing most of us have no say and no responsibility in, rather than those aspects of this which we share in every day?

And what comes after chilling? Freezing? Is it really "gross" to merely call this chilling? What would be neither an under- nor an overstatement?

girzel2• 9 years ago

I work in Chinese publishing, and the same thing is absolutely happening there. Books are being pulled off the shelves, publishers are being warned away from anything potentially controversial. The basic attitude is, "Don't risk it", and it's absolutely deadly to creativity and culture. On the one hand, the central government is trying to encourage Chinese culture to "Go Out" and wow the world. On the other, it is absolutely strangling the country's cultural creators.

jxramos• 9 years ago

This is very concerning. I'm curious how all this is delivered as far as the actions of officials to enact this behavior in general populace. How exactly do they pull it off? Are there new strategies employed or do they leverage years of chilling requests and punishments for people to generally know better not to cross the government? Do people personally know political prisoners and what not or see punished individuals paraded on TV and what not? Thanks for sharing.

girzel2• 9 years ago

The framework of control has been in place for a long time, it's just that they've been tightening down the (already-in-place) screws over the past couple of years.

The basic mechanism is control of ISBNs: the supply of these numbers is tightly restricted, and a book cannot be published without them. A fixed number of state-owned publishers is able to issue ISBNs, though privately-owned publishing companies can buy the numbers or work with a state-owned house to publish their books.

An ISBN acts as a chain-of-custody token for the publication of books. While some books are subject to approval before publication, the vast majority are not, and publication is done at the publisher's discretion. Should a book cause problems after publication, however, the consequences are catastrophic. The ISBN (and a "responsible editor" whose name appears on the copyright page of the book) allows the government to track down everyone who was involved in the production of the book, and squash them. People lose their jobs, in some cases publishing companies are suspended or dissolved outright.

It's a system carefully designed to make writers and publishers more cautious than they would actually need to be.

Publishing, while highly controlled by the government, isn't really an area where people end up in prison, or you see televised trials. The worst that usually happens is the ruining of a career, or in extreme cases the dissolution of a company (in journalism, by contrast, people get put in jail, or disappear). I've written about this distinction before[1], which I think is lost on most international observers.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/opinion/the-real-censors-...

68c12c163• 9 years ago

One of the most well-known political prisoners in the country is Xiaobo Liu, who was awarded a Nobel Peace prize in 2010. He has been a long time dissident there. He participated in the Tiananmen Square protest in 1989 and led the drafting of the Charter 08 (in brief, one can think of Charter 08 as some document in a similar strain as Magna Carta to early Britain -- but of course, this document was easily ignored by the Chinese government...)

Xiaobo Liu has been sent to jail for multiple times in the past 30 years, and was just released on a medical parole from his latest imprisonment -- as a result of being diagnosed with terminal liver cancer -- 10 days ago.

techrich• 9 years ago

No Teresa May this is not to be copied!

woodandsteel2• 9 years ago

Xi Jinping is pushing massive censorship because he thinks it is good for China, but I think that is a big mistake. History has shown that when you don't have open, public debate on important issues, the government becomes close-minded and makes poor decisions. Yes, democracy is messy, but the alternatives are worse.

Part of the problem here is that China is still running according to Confucianism, which was a wonderfully effective political philosophy for a largely agrarian society, but is quite ill-suited for the modern world. The Chinese need to think out what is the right form of government for the modern industrial world, but to do that they need free discussion, which is just what Xi is making impossible.

asdfologist• 9 years ago

No, Xi Jinping is pushing massive censorship because he thinks it is good for Xi Jinping.

68c12c163• 9 years ago

I feel stringent censorship is among the most unbearable things.

If we look at the censorship history in different countries over the world, such as France (before the 20th century) and USSR, the only way to end a very stringent censorship in a society is by ending the ruling government itself, which is usually an autocracy, or an oligarchy at best. But that could mean a period of turmoil that would destroy many people's lives across the entire country. It seems one way to avoid this great destruction is for most of the population in the country to rise up in synchrony and simultaneously topple down the government together -- but this concurrency at a society level is one of the major targets that the current censorship implemented in China aims at.

Sigh...It just seems impossible to have hack out a consensus in a distributed system when the powerful system admin with his privileges at the root level constantly interferes...

China's bloggers, filmmakers feel chill of internet crackdown

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