Ask HN: I am a startup CTO, do I need Internet at home?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1459025

by anonStartupCTO • 16 years ago

13 72 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I am a startup CTO. I feel I get enough internet at work, and appreciate the lack of internet at home for the decompression time it gives me.

Recently, my CEO has been pressuring me to get (and pay for) internet at home so I can support our fledgling site during all hours of the day (and night).

Some background:

* We have 500K users. Consumer-Focused.

* We raised a $1MM A round 1.5 years ago. The money is almost gone. We are trying to hit profitability in the next few months.

* The site has some uptime problems. (think 97% - 98% uptime). I am working dilligently to fix them during work hours.

* We are a small team. 5 members. 3 F/T, 2 P/T.

* I am a minor co-founder at this company. I have 5% equity. The other two co-founders are non-technical.

* I am the only team member with any expertise in scaling or systems.

* I am stretching to make ends meet financially (we're aiming for ramen-profitability), and another $50-60 / mo is not a desired expense.

* I live in NYC and move around a lot, so a 1-yr contract with Time Warner is undesired.

Should I get internet at home? Should I be expected to pay for it?

donohoe• 16 years ago

If by having internet access at home means helping your financial future then Yes.

If you're concerned by a 1 year contract to TW then you've got commitment problems :) However what about going with a cell plan and tethering? of Verizon mifi?

If you use the internet at home primarily for work purposes you can deduct it from taxes. Not a huge saving but it helps. In addition if you do work form home you can deduct part of your rent or mortgage based on the space occupied.

Hope that helps

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

It does help. Thank you.

To get to the thrust of my question: I feel taken advantage of that my co-founders are expecting me to get internet at home for work-purposes, while expecting that I'll be paying for it personally. I understand I am the CTO, and that creates some level of expectation that I have internet at home. But, at the end of the day, we're a funded company, and I feel they should pay for it if they feel that strongly about it. After all, when they want to go out to dinner to schmooze investors (as you would expect from a CEO), the company pays.

pvdm• 16 years ago

I suspect there is some underlying issue that you are not divulging. Do you get along with the founders ? Are you comfortable asking them to pay for the internet ? Do you feel you are being treated unfairly ? Talk these things out with them. Posting on HN is sort of a passive-aggressive way of dealing with the issue. Whether you should get internet at home is not the crux of your problem.

petervandijck4• 16 years ago

"I feel taken advantage of". Perhaps you feel taken advantage of in more ways than just this one?

ps: OF COURSE they should pay for it. Why are you (all) fighting over 20$/month? Frankly, that's ridiculous.

brk2• 16 years ago

Yes, absolutely. I'm honestly surprised it's even up for consideration given your situation.

The Internet is the 4th (or 5th, depending on how you look at it) Utility (Water, Gas, Electric, Internet, Phone). I think it's a safe and fair assumption that an employee (especially a tech employee in a small startup) be able have some kind of access to the Internet.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Thanks for your input. I see that side of things too, though I am not entirely convinced of the implication that because I am an employee of a tech company, I need internet (at my own expense).

I'm curious if you could articulate that implication here?

starkfist6• 16 years ago

It's implied because unless you live in poverty or are 85 years or older, it's kind of weird to not have the internet at home, whether or not you're the CTO of a tech company.

brk2• 16 years ago

This is just from my perspective... For background, I usually own one or more departments in a typical startup, ranging from Pre-Sales Engineering to Customer Support, to IT. In every case when I hire someone I have a set of what I consider to be reasonable expectations:

They will have a method to get to work reliably.

They will have a method to bathe regularly

They will have a method to be contacted after-hours in case of emergency (land-line and/or cell phone)

They will have a method to be contacted and respond electronically after-hours.

During the Interview stage, and in any offer letters, I make it clear that if you want to take a job at a startup you are going to be doing the work of 1.5 - 2.5 "standard" employees. We might not have a budget or requirement for 24.7 staffing, but things WILL happen after hours from time to time, and unless there are extreme circumstances you WILL be expected to act in a reasonable amount of time to respond to or resolve the issue.

So, I generally expect my employees to have basic connectivity and reachability after hours. Sometimes, depending on the scenario, the company will subsidize some or all their cell-phone or cable-modem bill, especially if either are used "significantly" for their work. At the same time, I wouldn't pay for someones car, or clothing, or heat bill. Cable modem/Internet at home is usually NOT subsidized unless the employee is a pure telecommuter.

Maybe my expectations are illogical, but of course I don't think so ;)

starkfist6• 16 years ago

Yes, you should have the internet at home if you are the CTO and the only team member with expertise in scaling or systems.

But you shouldn't be the 5% equity CTO who is responsible for the scaling with two non-technical co-founders in the first place. Especially if you are a guy who likes to be away from the internet.

Make the company pay for it.

Personally, I agree with your viewpoint and am not having internet at home when I move into my next apartment. But I am also not the CTO of a startup.

Also, I feel the need to say "A startup with two business guys and a CTO who hates the internet: 'Only in New York...'"

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

While I suspect your comment to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I feel the need to be clear about this: I do not 'hate' the internet. In fact, I love it. In small doses. While it allows me to run operations efficiently while in the office, I find it to be a horrendous time waster during my personal time.

mgkimsal2• 16 years ago

I'm mildly shocked that someone gets the title of CTO these days and doesn't have home internet access.

As someone else mentioned, you'd be getting it for work, so it's tax deductible.

Obviously we don't know your situation, but if I had system problems that were continually causing 2-3% downtime, I'd be working all hours of the day (and night) to fix it so that I don't have to stretch out the fix to an even longer period of time. I realize that's probably not all you're doing at work, but this sounds a bit like putting off stuff that's not fun. Plow in, head down, get it done so that issue (or those issues) don't cause you any more late nights.

That said, you also sound a bit unsure of the future - not much money left, trying to become profitable, etc. Are you looking for another position? If so, I would expect most other orgs would expect 'internet at home' from a CTO - especially one with an equity stake (however small).

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

RE: the CTO title. It's easy to be the 'chief' code monkey, when you're the only code monkey. =)

I agree with your sentiments about working hard to fix the problems. I have been heads down on this project for 2 years. The psychological strain from the 12 hour days, 6 days a week is really wearing on me. I'd like to have a personal life, too please.

No, I'm not looking for other work. I've told my partners that I'm in it until there is no more 'it'. If I were looking for other work, it wouldn't necessarily have to have some high-and-mighty title like 'CTO', though.

mgkimsal2• 16 years ago

I hear ya - and some of that wasn't quite clear from the original post (already doing 70-80 hours, 2 years, etc). And I feel for ya too - I hope it turns around for you.

That said, having net access at home might end up being better, if you can manage it. Depending on the work, it may allow you to be more flexible how and when you address problems, and still have some personal/family time as well.

davidw• 16 years ago

> I'm mildly shocked that someone gets the title of CTO these days and doesn't have home internet access.

To me it's like asking if you should go ahead and get running water and electricity:-)

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

for the record, i have those =)

andymoe• 16 years ago

If you live in NYC I'm sure you can find somewhere nearby with free wifi in an emergency. If you don't want a one year contract why don't you get the company to sign up for a verizon wireless card and use that. If they go under it's not you holding the bag.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Yeah. I'm basically getting by by 'borrow'ing wifi from a cafe that's downstairs. Their signal is unreliable at best, though.

I'd love it if the company got a wifi card for whoever is on call. Both parties are refusing to foot the bill though.

starkfist6• 16 years ago

Why are they refusing to foot the bill if they have $1M? It's only like $60/m.

coryl• 16 years ago

What kind of living space do you have? Sharing a connection with neighbors in apartments is pretty common over wireless, just watch your consumption and split the bill. I suppose you could do that even in houses.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

An apartment. Don't know the neighbors.

That may be a good compromise though. Thanks for the suggestion.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

tried some of my neighbors. no luck :(. might be a function of the neighborhood i'm in (which doesn't have many wi-fi signals, maybe because it's so far from downtown)

staunch• 16 years ago

You should be able to get a month-to-month contract by paying an extra $10-$15/mo.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

We have iPhones (which the company pays for), and with iOS4, tethering is only $20 more / month.

Though the idea of giving AT&T any more money makes me grumpy, that may be an explorable option.

starkfist6• 16 years ago

BTW when I first moved to NYC, I used to do this with the tethering hack and it works pretty well.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

just got a shiny new iPhone 4. does anyone have any experience with the tethering feature on the new iPhone?

Travis• 16 years ago

I think you should want to be accessible at home. You're part of a startup -- it's a lifestyle. And it's hard. How much would it cost your company if something died at 5:01PM, and you couldn't fix it for 16 hours? Would you feel perfectly fine in telling them, "sorry, I wasn't on duty so I fixed it when I got in"?

And 100% the company should pay for it. 110%, actually.

jasonlbaptiste• 16 years ago

Yes, without a doubt. Shit will happen and you need to be able to get on it immediately. Odds are getting to the office would take too long. I definitely understand the need for downtime. It's crucial. I'd try to find some way to close off the computer, so you only access it when YOU need it.

frossie2• 16 years ago

Okay, I realise we are reeling with the whole "What? This person doesn't want Internet at home??", but let's forget about the internet thing.

The issue is, as I understand it, that you don't want to be on call 24/7. So the decision tree seems fairly simple:

A. Do you need someone on call 24/7 (i.e. is the difference between 97% and 100% uptime significant in your business)

B. Can somebody else be your out-of-ours support person?

If the answer is Yes and No, you are stuck. Get the Internet already.

If you have trouble evaluating A, go to your users. Ask "would you like feature X or better uptime?" (Never ask an open question like "would you like more uptime", as that doesn't allow you to establish its value - what idiot would say no?)

If your users require better uptime AND you cannot find someone to provide it AND switching off at home is important to your sanity, you need another job.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

> A. Do you need someone on call 24/7 (i.e. is the difference between 97% and 100% uptime significant in your business) Yes > B. Can somebody else be your out-of-ours support person? No.

The issue is not that I mind being on call when things are broken. The issue is that they want me to pay my own way in order to be on call. It's insulting.

frossie2• 16 years ago

The issue is that they want me to pay my own way in order to be on call.

Ah. Well in a salaried world I would say fair enough (my organisation pays for phone and internet connections for on-call staff).

In a startup world... I don't know. But either way, I don't think there's any point in feeling insulted. It's just a matter of fact issue of "I choose not to spend money for an Internet connection. If the company pays for it, I will do my best to attend after-hour calls". No point bringing emotions into it.

But you know, if you have a stake in this company succeeding and if the company has no money... if it was me, there are definitely circumstances in which I would pay for it.

petervandijck4• 16 years ago

By being ridiculous about something like this, it seems like they don't value their technical co-founder, is that the real issue?

To be honest, I can see why you'd feel insulted.

uptown3• 16 years ago

You're the CTO of a company with half a million users during a make it or break it profitability period of the next few months and you're wondering if you need to be able to login to work from home? Unless you're able to get reliable access using a neighbor's connection, or are able to be in the office within 5 minutes, then yes. You need a home connection.

By the way, TimeWarner in NYC doesn't lock you in with a contract, so you can go month to month.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Thanks. I think almost everyone I've spoken to agrees (as do I) that I need internet. Any input on who should foot the bill?

charliepark• 16 years ago

Because your uptime is spotty, you absolutely should have some means of restarting the site back up if the servers fall over. If I were your investor, I'd want to know that somebody was responsible for making sure the site's up.

At the same time, I'm sympathetic to your cashflow situation. Even with the tax deduction at the end of the year, that doesn't affect your monthly bills right now.

What I would do would be to set some objective metric for uptime that you and your cofounders agree upon. Until you get to that point, you cover the internet. Once you hit that point, the company covers the cost. I recognize that this is inverse of the actual work/money relationship (arguably, the company would be paying for the time when you need to have access to the site to get it going again), but I think the incentive is pretty clear that you want to get your uptime rock solid ASAP, and I think it aligns your objectives with the company's objectives.

uptown3• 16 years ago

I think your bigger problem is that you seem to be in the "me versus them" mindset when you define the fact that Internet access will come at your own expense. In a startup of five, with only three permanents, I'm sure you've been asked to make all sorts of sacrifices.

If $40/month, or about $1 a day is really causing strife between you and YOUR company ... not your employer, but YOUR company, then maybe it's the job and not the access expectations that are the bigger problem.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Right. I feel the need to add that it's not all "us vs. them" in the day-to-day, but the subject of this post is a negotiation between me and them, hence the 'us vs. them' demeanor in some of my comments.

I think you're right to question whether the $40/month is the real issue. I am questioning myself whether I want to be on a team whose non-technical leaders (I feel) do not respect their technical team members.

InclinedPlane• 16 years ago

Yes.

You should probably own your own personal computer as well.

That'll require electricity, so you might want to get that installed ASAP.

Is this serious?

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Excuse me, the attitude is not needed.

If you have a helpful suggestion for my situation, I'd be happy to hear it. Do you feel that I should be supplying my own computer? Should the company pay for my internet?

uptown3• 16 years ago

Wow. If I was a shareholder in your company, I'd be terrified.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

I feel the need to follow up on this comment.

IMO, the OP of the comment was rude by implying that having internet as a utility is on the same level as having electricity or that I'd need to buy my own computer to be on call. (Especially since he didn't explain his reasoning) If this were reddit, I wouldn't have bothered, but I feel the need to call out especially negative, rude, or non-constructive comments on HN.

My apologies that I sniped at him/her.

waivej• 16 years ago

How quickly can an issue be resolved if you are at home and something breaks? Is there a neighbor with free wifi? Do you have monitoring software that notifies you somehow? Is anyone else "on call"?

If all is going well at work and you aren't the one "on call" for outages, then maybe not. However, 97-98% uptime with 500,000 users sounds like a critical time in your company's growth. Are you taking any heat for the uptime issue?

Who pays for it is a tough question. If it's for the good of the company, then I think they should. But, as CTO, I would look out for the company's best interest even if they are feeling cheap. In that case, what's the lowest cost/term way that you can cover the bases?

damoncali2• 16 years ago

Sounds like your issue may be more about your ownership percentage than your internet access. Have a chat with the founders. Sounds like they need you more than you need them at this point.

But yeah, you should have internet at home, and you shouldn't expect your company to pay for it.

olefoo2• 16 years ago

I think you hit the nail on the head; anonymous CTO seems to have some commitment issues, and doesn't seem to realize that a site that's having unscheduled downtime of 3 or more hours a week is going to feel flaky (that's 98% uptime folks), and that it's his responsibility to take care of it. Battling over internet at his home is a proxy for his other frustrations with the startup. But yeah, expecting the CTO to have internet access at home, and to be able to keep the effing site UP for customers isn't out of line for a startup.

My take, this venture is over; it's done, once team members are taking petty office grievances public like this, there is no team anymore.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

I think you're right that there are some deeper issues here, and no one is doubting that the issues with the uptime need to get fixed ASAP, but I disagree with your notion that because I am taking my grievances public, the venture is over. There is a reason I am anonymous: I want to get feedback from other hackers, not throw my co-founders under a bus.

joshbert2• 16 years ago

Yes, you do need Internet at home. It'll come handy, especially since you're at a key time in the progress of the company. However, 5% doesn't seem exactly as a fair deal to me. I know it's OT, but maybe you should consider negotiating your terms and equity in the company, even more so since you're the one taking care of the systems and scalability.

Also, everyone needs a little decomposing time, so cheers on that initial part of your post.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Thanks. I don't know how much luck I'll have negotiating terms this far into the venture, but I suppose it's worth mentioning.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Spoke to my partners and we have a discussion scheduled for first thing Monday. Thanks for the input.

apower• 16 years ago

How can you burn through $1M in 18 months with 3 F/T and 2P/T? The two non-tech co-founders taking $300K each?

starkfist6• 16 years ago

If the total cost of having an employee is $100K/yr, it's $600K for the equivalent of 4 employees for 18 months. Add in any server costs, legal fees, various petty expenditures. He says they've got 3-4 months left. Sounds about right.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

yeah, you're right. it all adds up (server costs, legal fees, marekting, etc..)

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

for most, that depends on your market / business plan. salary can be the biggest in some cases, but inventory is a big thing for us.

DaniFong• 16 years ago

I use a 3G connection through Millenicom. It hasn't been awesome but it has supported what was a nomadic lifestyle for a time.

It's not always on. You have to turn it on. This has been a big timesaver for me. YMMV.

ScottWhigham• 16 years ago

Should I get internet at home? Should I be expected to pay for it?

You should get the same thing the co-founders get. If they pay for theirs at home, so should you. If you were not a significant equity holder then I'd argue that the company should pay if you were doing company work.

It isn't more/less important for the CTO to be online than the CEO for a web-based business IMO; both roles need to have available internet connection 24/7.

dutchrapley2• 16 years ago

http://www.virginmobileusa.com/mobile-broadband

It's mobile broadband without the commitment since it's Virgin Mobile (it runs on Sprint's network).

Plans are $20, $40, and $60 for 30 days access. You can always buy the usb stick, and then purchase connectivity only when you need it, with no monthly commitment.

If you want a mobile hotspot - may I also suggest this for plugging in the Virgin Mobile Broadband2Go USB stick.

http://www.amazon.com/Cradlepoint-PHS300-Personal-Hotspot-Bl...

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Thanks. Do you have any experience with any of those products? Good / Bad ?

dutchrapley2• 16 years ago

Not personally. I have a couple of friends who have used that combination specifically. Not as a primary, but for vacation or if they happen to be in a coffee shop with an unreliable connection. If I were in the situation where I needed something in a pinch, that's what I would start with. Granted, you still have to drop $200 up front just for the equipment.

justinchen2• 16 years ago

Seems simple to me. If they're asking you to get it, they should pay for it.

anonStartupCTO28• 16 years ago

Do you think the fact that I'm CTO implies that I should just ~already have it~?

justinchen2• 16 years ago

Nope. If they hired you as CTO before you had it then I don't see why it should be a factor in your technicalness or ability to do your work.

cjus• 16 years ago

Sounds like the company is dying which explains why they don't want to pay for your Internet access. Regardless, you'll need Internet access to find your next gig.

Ask HN: I am a startup CTO, do I need Internet at home?

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