El Salvador bans metal mining in world first

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-el-salvador-metal-world.html

by seycombi • 9 years ago

205 120 9 years ago

This has apparently been in the works for a while[0] in response to a ridiculous percentage of El Salvador's fresh water being poisoned by mining runoff. Good for them, this looks like it solves a lot of problems.

Does anyone know what sort of impact this will have on their economy?

[0]https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/e...

otto_ortega• 9 years ago

Does anyone know what sort of impact this will have on their economy?

Pretty much zero. I live in El Salvador. The economy is fucked up since long time ago, and metal mining was unlikely to help in any way, specially when most of the profit derived from it was going to leave the country, and the percentage that would remain here was going to end up in the hands of corrupt government officials, in the form of bribes or funding for lobbying.

jbreckmckye3• 9 years ago

Probably less impact than poisoning their populace.

r00fus• 9 years ago

It'll be interesting to see how fast banning the pollution results in water quality changes.

jacquesm9• 9 years ago

Or how fast massive sudden un-employment results in riots. Fast change like this is bound to have side-effects.

But mining accounts for a minimal portion of their economies and jobs, a recent study by various NGOs showed.

Which of course is great when you're sitting in your NGO provided air-conditioned office. But a few tens of thousands of miners might disagree with the definition of 'minimal'. For them it likely was all of their income.

I'm all for change like this but I would prefer a more gradual approach. Such as 'no new people are allowed to be hired for mining' or other more or less automatic mechanisms.

azernik2• 9 years ago

FTA: "But mining accounts for a minimal portion of their economies and jobs, a recent study by various NGOs showed."

kpil• 9 years ago

It seems to be a bad deal to get a few thousand jobs at the cost of severe damage to the environment and public health, while all the money is shifted out of the country.

nathancahill4• 9 years ago

Nope. Mining companies in Central America are universally (removed: disliked) hated, and everyone knows that they exploit the country, environment and people while extracting all profits out of the country. Guatemala hasn't gone as far as El Salvador, but it's coming.

TheSpiceIsLife• 9 years ago

Re-employ them all to rehabilitate the land. Could take decades.

nitwit005• 9 years ago

It took me about a minute of Googling to learn that they did do a gradual approach. They stopped issuing permits a decade ago, which led to a mining company trying (unsuccessfully) to sue them: https://www.iisd.org/itn/2009/08/31/el-salvador-government-c...

softrock• 9 years ago

Likely not that fast. Waste piles and water flowing out of abandoned mines will continue to mess up water for many years after a mine closes.

EGreg• 9 years ago

How dare El Salvador try to use facts to claim that these foreign companies mining their resources don't help their communities but only pollute it!

The anarcho capitalist solution is that the country should privatize their water supply so that outside companies can then legally buy up the lakes and pollute as much as they want! After all the companies will have paid people for it - the people only would have to live there :)

jacquesm9• 9 years ago

The anarcho capitalist solution is that the country should privatize their water supply so that outside companies can then legally buy up the lakes and pollute as much as they want!

That's roughly what has been happening in several other Latin American countries. Bechtel being the usual suspect, they specialize at that kind of trick hand-in-hand with the World Bank.

DaiPlusPlus• 9 years ago

My father worked as a chemical process engineer for Bechtel stationed in a 3rd world country (we all lived there with him too) working on the public-works water treatment system for the nation's capital - from what I can tell, Bechtel did go in with honest intentions - but were stalled by local corruption and lack of political willpower.

lightedman3• 9 years ago

This becomes interesting. Many gemstones are also essentially metal ores. I wonder if this will affect gem and mineral mining/collecting in El Salvador, which does have a decent reputation in the mineral/gem/lapidary circle.

maguirre• 9 years ago

really? I am from El Salvador and was completely unaware of this

lightedman3• 9 years ago

All that volcanic activity makes for rich, rich gem and mineral deposits, of igneous and metamorphic types.

ridgeguy2• 9 years ago

To the extent that gem finds are incident to bulk metal mining operations, it could decrease gem yield. But I'm not sure what the gems would be.

Stories on El Salvador's mining ban emphasize gold mining. I'm not sure what gems are found in coincidence with gold, except maybe quartz crystals in hydrothermal gold deposits.

Silver, copper, lead, zinc and titanium seem to be the other metals mined in El Salvador. Although there are collectable minerals associated with some of these (copper->azurite, malachite; lead->galena crystals), I can't immediately think of gemstones that occur in these metallic ores.

lightedman3• 9 years ago

Rose quartz is a primary ore of Titanium. Asterated rose quartz comes from this area. If you have gold you likely have other heavy metals like iron in the area, which can lead to garnets. The calcium content in the area lends itself to making Epidote. Sphalerite is the primary ore of Zinc and also produces quite impressive gems. Then you'll have volcanic gem rock in the area, such as multi-colored obsidian.

partycoder• 9 years ago

This is interesting.

Blocking access to a resource would redirect efforts towards other activities.

Countries with abundance of resources or no restrictions to harvest them are not always more prosperous, as explained by the concept "resource course": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

aaron695• 9 years ago

Have they lost the plot? Has HN lost the plot in the comments supporting this.

Why not just ban science?

We need metals to live and prosper.

If it was really that minimal as per 'NGO' advise then the pollution would be minimal.

Why not just make companies pay fines if they polute? The government obviously doesn't kowtow to them?

Perhaps if their people weren't so poor you could excuse banning things like gold and diamond. But this (as the article tells it, I doubt it's close to the full story) is like going back to the middle ages.

jacquesm9• 9 years ago

Some of the pollution is Mercury, they list the degree of pollution as 1000x permissible maxima when it comes to heavy metal pollution of that water.

vixen99• 9 years ago

This is appalling but who are 'they'? As we know, mercury is a potent neurotoxin.

We're justly concerned about this but but on the other hand Americans are told that mercury amalgam is perfectly safe when permanently lodged a few centimeters from the brain.

American Dental Association: "Dental amalgam is considered a safe, affordable and durable material that has been used to restore the teeth of more than 100 million Americans. It contains a mixture of metals such as silver, copper and tin, in addition to mercury, which binds these components into a hard, stable and safe substance. Dental amalgam has been studied and reviewed extensively, and has established a record of safety and effectiveness.".

So, are Denmark, Sweden and Norway ill-informed for banning it for medical and environmental reasons? My biochemistry tells me they're not.

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Adviso...e/DentalProductsPanel...

powera• 9 years ago

#globalization

El Salvador is a small country with no pretenses of being self-sufficient. It doesn't matter how silly the local laws are.

badosu7• 9 years ago

There's a limit to which resources you'd want/be able to be self-sufficient, you must make trade-offs.

Even big countries may lack some rare metals or fossil fuels.

warent• 9 years ago

The ends don't justify the means. For example, we banned Nazi science of all forms. This kind of industry is less directly damaging but still overly so

badosu7• 9 years ago

For example, we banned Nazi science of all forms.

Could you develop this point? Certainly not rocket science [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Spooky23• 9 years ago

So, you're ok if I open up a company in your town and dump mercury and tailings into the water your children drink?

I suggest that you visit or at least read about El Salvador or Guatemala. No insult intended, but your attitude is both ignorant and offensive.

astronautjones4• 9 years ago

We should call Discovery Channel, we found the lost ancestor of Hernan Cortes in OP

empath75• 9 years ago

Metal mining is fine if it's done responsibly and safely. Resource extraction in the developing world, however, is a horror show.

mirimir3• 9 years ago

I will never forget driving through Sudbury in the 60s.

3131s• 9 years ago

We need metals to live and prosper.

Prosper maybe, but not live. You seem to simultaneously admit to knowing nothing about El Salvador or the "full story" yet regardless you have formed very strong opinions about how the citizens of El Salvador should be extracting resources for you and the rest of the world.

hueving• 9 years ago

At our population, yes, even to live. Electricity and heavy machinery is no longer a 'nice to have' when it comes to food and water for 7 billion.

mirimir3• 9 years ago

If it was really that minimal as per 'NGO' advise then the pollution would be minimal.

That's because most of the money leaves the country.

taneq3• 9 years ago

You're getting hammered but no-one's addressing your actual point, which is perfectly valid. If they keep using metals, they're not solving any environmental problems, they're merely trying to push them into someone else's back yard.

Rather than banning mining outright, they need to implement environmental controls to address the actual problem: Not metal extraction, but pollution.

InclinedPlane• 9 years ago

El Salvador is not the world. They chose an extreme solution to try to ameliorate an immediate problem. Is it globally optimal? No. Does it need to be? No.

P.S. nobody seemed to give a shit for the years that mining interests have been poisoning local populations for profit across the globe. One side effect of this extreme measure will be more publicity for the issue of dirty mining in the developing world. And consequently perhaps a move toward mining companies being better actors due to increased pressure from governments and to avoid bad PR. And if that happens then El Salvador would be able to see it, begin to trust mining companies again, and maybe allow them back in. Until that happens though there's little advantage to them of continuing the status quo.

sebleon• 9 years ago

At first glance, I think this measure makes a lot of sense - profits from mines mostly leave the country.

That being said, I'd expect this will lead to a surge in illegal mining operations, which will likely be a lot more environmentally hazardous.

badosu7• 9 years ago

I don't understand why you'd be downvoted, this is feasible: see the illegal sand mining operations in India for instance [0].

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/magazine/sand-mining-indi...

thatcat4• 9 years ago

Some people might see it as sort of a defeatist stance to take. Is it harder to detect illegal mine or to regulate all mining? Seems they would be easy to find from satallite images.

mmsimanga• 9 years ago

Good point. Something similar is happening in Zimbabwe my home country. Mining wasn't banned but mining companies left the country because the laws being passed made it difficult for outside companies to operate. The result is that a lot of illegal mining is now taking place so much so that the government was forced to acknowledge it by issuing gold/mineral selling licenses. In the past the government issued mining certificates, miners sold the minerals. So the question is where is the gold coming from?

anovikov• 9 years ago

Illegal mining was the most common way of mining coal in Ukraine, and probably was the main reason behind strife there. So illegal mining boom which is a lot more hazardous and a lot more dangerous for miners is very likely if normal one is banned.

You don't solve these problems as easily. To really fix it, a way to produce minerals in economically safe and preferably, sustainable way (like, filtering out of ocean water) is needed.

ant6n• 9 years ago

What about just properly absorbing the ban.

Does "proper mining" somehow police against illegal mining?

senorjazz3• 9 years ago

perhaps yes and perhaps no. Not entirely the same, but when you look at the contamination caused by chevron in the Ecuadorian amazon, billions upon billions of waste knowingly dumped into the land and the rivers due to the power of the company and lack of power of the state back then. It was simple more profitable to do this, so they did.

A problem for most developing countries, especially when the company is backed by a much more powerful country.

Compare that to small scale illegal miners. The scale at which they can pollute is a lot less and localised. Yes they damage, but do not have the potential to damage as the large corporations.

Ideally, legal mining / oil extraction would be heavily regulated and monitored to avoid (minimise) contamination.

But in remote areas of developing countries, the profit at stake is too corrupting to "both" sides. It is all too easy to see the developing country as being the corrupt partner (which it is) but many forget the corruption of the powerful side who set up the corruption in the first place. A chicken and egg situation. Was the country corrupted before, or was it made corrupt by the offer of money to chase bigger profit

cmrdporcupine• 9 years ago

A lot of Canadian mining companies doing really dirty work in Central America. Makes me ashamed to be Canadian. Glad to see El Salvador assert their autonomy.

ced• 9 years ago

Not that I doubt it - heard similar tales in Chile - but do you have specific events in mind?

astronautjones4• 9 years ago

Thank you for the rare upvoted HN comment that makes me optimistic about humans

specialist• 9 years ago

Ages ago, a buddy predicted we'd eventually just mine our own trash for precious metals. As opposed to recycling, I suppose. Call it "extreme recycling".

I wonder how close we are to that future.

cardamomo• 9 years ago

This is an important element of one of my favorite YA novels from my youth, The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/633270.The_Ear_the_Eye_a...

gregpilling• 9 years ago

We have been here for years. I knew a guy in Canada in the 90s who was getting gold out of electronics, and my facotry in Tucson AZ had a big operation down the street that exclusively employed ex cons to remove precious metals from discarded electronics.

terminado• 9 years ago

Now I think there are probably way many more rare earths. Like neodymium from headphones and the odd USB device tossed directly into the garbage.

Gold is an obvious target, but there are probably larger quantities of other valuable metals to be had from recently accumulated trash.

nathancahill4• 9 years ago

Visit a dump in any 3rd-world country. Mining garbage dumps already happens, and it is indeed extreme recycling. Absolutely every last bit of value is extracted from the trash. There are several good documentaries about this, will post links once back on desktop.

parshimers• 9 years ago

It's a reality. The nickel smelting operation in Norilsk, Russia is so polluting that you can mine the topsoil downwind of the smelter feasibly: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/world/europe/12norilsk.htm...

amorphid2• 9 years ago

That is awesomely terrifying.

amorphid2• 9 years ago

My buddy suggested that a feature civilization will discover a natural resource called plastic.

prodmerc• 9 years ago

More than half of US steel is made from scrap metal. Trash dumps are already being "mined" for stuff, as well.

djsumdog2• 9 years ago

I suspect their head of state will die in a plane crash within a year. Either that or there will be a military coupe. Double your bets if any of those shut down were American mining companies.

And before you start saying I should take off my tin foil hat, look up the 1973 coupe in Chile, the Iranian Contras, United Fruit and the documentary Confessions of an Economic Hitman.

I hope El Salvador keeps mining banned. I really do. But the track record is that NATO countries tend to "fix" things when their interests are threatened.

chis• 9 years ago

The history is accurate and maybe that would've happened 20 years ago. But I wonder if globalization + the internet have ended these secret coups. I really can't imagine a world in which the CIA overthrows an entire government without anyone leaking it or noticing.

I guess it's possible that the U.S. doesn't care about the backlash, but it wouldn't be a popular move.

astronautjones4• 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Dilma_Rousseff

rangibaby• 9 years ago

I dont think so. See: Color revolutions and Arab spring.

SapphireSun2• 9 years ago

I think everyone noticed Iraq. You're right, that wasn't a secret coup. :P

djsumdog2• 9 years ago

Um...Syria?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkj9UCHO0Tc

johnvonneumann• 9 years ago

Hate to nit pick, but it's not that it "would have happened", it's moreso the fact that it actually did happen. Repeatedly. Globalisation is largely a result of these hyper aggressive neo capitalist agendas. IMO some basic reading on Allen Dulles, the original director of the CIA should shed some light on the "company culture" that was at the heart of the organisation for so long, you could argue that culture changes, but IMO when the entire purpose of an organisation is subversion of international interests, I doubt their mission statement changes. Plus, there has been quite a lot of talk over recent years over the role of social media in propaganda distribution for clandestine operation purposes. Especially inside the intelligence community, they actively recognise it as one of the most effective weapons in the fight for public approval.

the-dude• 9 years ago

Ukrain

kurthr• 9 years ago

NATO countries like Bulgaria, Croatia, Check Republic, and Denmark... where did that come from? If you mean UK, or the US, just say it.

What about Russia, China, Japan... even South Africa? I think one of them might have been involved in a coup, over through, or invasion in the last 40 years.

At least the sheep shippers of Togo are doing their part to subvert surveillance...

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/russi...

AnAfrican6• 9 years ago

All of your examples are from more than thirty years ago.

In the mean time, half of South America had pretty leftist governments and nothing happened.

cuchoi• 9 years ago

Maybe Latin American governments learned their lesson

SapphireSun2• 9 years ago

30 years is not long enough for everyone involved to be dead and no longer influential... and that doesn't even touch on whether the reason it happened is structural.

I'm not sure I understand your second point.

int_19h• 9 years ago

Contras were in this same Nicaragua... but they lost. And their current head of state is one of the leaders of the coalition that defeated them.

So if he was slated to die in a plane crash, I feel like it would have happened back in 1984.

pyrale• 9 years ago

Not taking side here, but your point suffers from selection bias. Obviously the current leader of the country was not assassinated in 1984.

mig39• 9 years ago

"this same Nicaragua" -- this is El Salvador.

zghst• 9 years ago

Too bad we (U.S.) are a a large economy, the only way we could survive and implement this policy is if we get to space and get good at mining asteroids.

bingomad1232• 9 years ago

Now let us hope all countries follow the suite and ban all metal mining right away.

taneq3• 9 years ago

So you're going to lead the way by stopping using any metal products, right?

Including your computer?

alexvoda• 9 years ago

To such a fallacious reply the recent news of Apple deciding to only use recycled materials should be enough of a response I think.

bingomad1232• 9 years ago

The comment was sarcasm obviously directed towards people who are hailing this move.

zenkat• 9 years ago

In _Collapse_, Jared Diamond makes the argument that almost all modern mining of metals would be economically unprofitable if all the negative externalities (i.e., cleanup costs) were taken into account.

driverdan• 9 years ago

I assume there's nuance to that you left out. Metal demand is inelastic. Prices would go up, demand would go down, but there would still be demand.

Arizhel• 9 years ago

The problem here is that our technological society needs metals to operate. But getting those metals is making a big mess in less-developed places like this, for the benefit of the more-developed places.

So, the solution is simple: mine asteroids. No one cares about pollution in space.

El Salvador bans metal mining in world first

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