Why doesn’t Pakistan reform its blasphemy laws?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/04/economist-explains-14?cid1=cust/ddnew/n/n/n/20170425n/owned/n/n/nwl/n/n/na/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatchz

by JumpCrisscross • 9 years ago

54 104 9 years ago

economist.com

vowelless• 9 years ago

There is little incentive for Pakistan to change the laws. People see it as morally correct. And it silences any criticism, particularly theological, about the religion or Muhammad PBUH. They infact have a larger incentive to remained hardline and aligned with the gulf states like Saudi. I have seen the transformation among Pakistanis over the last 20 years ("Allah hafiz", "Al bakistan"). Hopefully a Pakistani person can expand more.

Having grown up in a similarly oppressive environment, I absolutely cherish the freedom of speech in the US and I hope it is protected as the most sacred thing in this nation because a lot of places in the world don't have it. And when you don't have it, it is like being suffocated. Any criticism of the religion will quickly get you labeled as a kafir because you are trying to cover the "truth" (defined as Islam). You can never have a real conversation because first you will be called names and then, you will likely face violence. You cannot get together with others of similar mindsets openly because mobs will shut you down, start riots, etc.

For people who don't know, please read up on Salmaan Taseer. Interestingly, his son's article about getting a greencard was on the front page of HN 10 months ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12025996

lambdaphagy• 9 years ago

The failure to consider the obvious answer, "because they like their blasphemy laws just fine", reminds me of the following from Mitchell Heisman:

"According to one variant of postmodern, liberal theory, all humans of all cultures are really Western liberals (with the possible exception of Western conservatives)."

notgood7• 9 years ago

Exactly, punishment is hold in high esteem when you believe yourself to be righteously demanding it, and no-one believes themselves more righteous than a religious person doing "god's will".

Cyph0n7• 9 years ago

They infact have a larger incentive to remained hardline and aligned with the gulf states like Saudi.

You mean "aligned with Saudi". None of the other Gulf states are anywhere near as culturally backwards as KSA.

int_19h8• 9 years ago

Oman? Qatar? UAE?

kevin_thibedeau• 9 years ago

For the same reason why the US doesn't relent on its socially destructive minimum sentencing requirements. There is no political capital in being soft on <insert despised minority group here>.

azernik2• 9 years ago

To put that in even more simple terms - because they like their awful laws, thank you very much.

duncan_bayne6• 9 years ago

Because they're devout Muslims who favour the mainstream interpretation of Islamic theology, which includes punishment for blasphemy and capital punishment for apostasy.

If these were American Scientologists torturing people for blasphemy and murdering people for leaving their cult, no-one would hesitate to point the finger at their religion as the problem.

Cyph0n7• 9 years ago

Because they're devout Muslims who favour the mainstream interpretation of Islamic theology

I'm a Muslim and this is the first time I hear that this is the "mainstream" position. Do you have any reasonable sources for that claim?

duncan_bayne6• 9 years ago

Why yes, I do:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

... And more specifically:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy

Blasphemy is punishable in the vast majority of Islamic countries. Most Muslims worldwide support these laws, and most schools of Islamic jurisprudence support their position in Islamic law.

It's probably not true of most Muslims in Western countries however. I have a sneaking suspicion - but no way of proving it - that people who think this sort of thing is nuts are more likely to want to emigrate to countries without it.

Note that blasphemy is also punishable in many Western countries. This is driven by the same problem: religion. Usually Christianity.

MichaelGG5• 9 years ago

The most mentioned study on this topic that I've seen is: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi...

Multiply the percentages out and it does not paint a favourable picture of the actual interpretation of Islam, as believed by most users.

It's odd that you're downvoted. It'd appear that most of the people in those countries would agree with your statement exactly. They are devout, and that is literally what they believe.

PhasmaFelis10• 9 years ago

Unfortunately a lot of people figure that reading a few critical articles means they know more about something than its actual practitioners, which is why you're, bafflingly, being downvoted. As a Christian, I've had non-Christians actually get angry at me for not being a bigot, and as a feminist I've had non-feminists tell me that I'm "supposed to" hate myself and all men.

Some people get really uncomfortable when others don't fit into their tidy labels.

politicalthrow2• 9 years ago

I got curious about whether these were mainstream beliefs with muslims. Muslim culture is so varied as it's very large.

Here's a breakdown:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-...

The parent is correct in that most muslims, broken down by country, do support sharia law when surveyed.

Edited because I was wrong about numbers.

mythrwy2• 9 years ago

What do you mean #1?

Christianity has a lot more adherents (numbers wise) than Islam.

duncan_bayne6• 9 years ago

The only caveat to that I'd add is that the numbers are probably a bit inflated, given they're being often being polled in countries where apostasy is punishable by death. I'd be a mite careful how I answered polls on religious beliefs in those places.

blacksmith_tb• 9 years ago

Well, yes and no. While Shariah is generally in line with your description, there are plenty of Muslim countries that have secular law - though they may still have blasphemy and/or apostasy laws on the books. And there are theoretically Christian countries with blasphemy laws, too[1]

1: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countr...

mythrwy2• 9 years ago

I don't care for blasphemy laws one bit, but "reform" is a bit of a loaded word in this context.

lappet• 9 years ago

I am guessing it is because of vote banks. There might be a chance that a good percentage of the people don't want really want the law - but they are moderate/silent. At least, I hope so.

Fej• 9 years ago

I mean, these are some of the most hard-line extremists alive. Of course they aren't going to reform their blasphemy laws.

Pakistan is a backwards theocracy, which created the Taliban and has been attempting to spread their awful model of governance ever since. I imagine they wish to set an example.

littletimmy4• 9 years ago

This is absolutely false. Pakistan has a system of laws that is based on the British system - it is very obviously not a theocracy.

Pakistan created the Taliban out of political necessity, and the United States is to blame for it. When the USA and Russia fought a proxy war in Afghanistan, it left the country in tatters. Pakistan got millions of refugees (1/5 of the population of Afghanistan was living in Pakistan at one time). Think of how Americans start to hyperventilate even at the thought of accepting a few thousand refugees. Pakistan took in millions - and it had to stabilize Afghanistan to restore order and stop the flow. At that time, Pakistan supported the Taliban so that the mess that the United States and Russia made could be controlled. Blame the Cold War, not Pakistan.

int_19h8• 9 years ago

Pakistan has a system of laws that is based on the British system

It also has a different set of laws, added later, that is based on Sharia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinances

flukus2• 9 years ago

I'm not convinced the British system isn't a theocracy, at a very technical level anyway. The head of state is the head of the church after all. On a purely structural level it's almost a mirror of Iran.

notgood7• 9 years ago

The same reason any of the biggest countries with sharia law are always surrounded by human rights violations (Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, etc); because the justice system became a tool to protect ideas from citizens instead of aiming for the well-being of all its citizens (as in, prioritizing coexistence).

MichaelGG5• 9 years ago

Do you have evidence those citizens desire a happy coexistence and repeal of these laws? The survey linked elsewhere in this thread claims the opposite.

Of course that doesn't mean the top people aren't "abusing" the laws to get more control.

notgood7• 9 years ago

In not a single part of my statement I'm saying they desire coexistence, I'm just saying the reasons they don't have it; anyway, if governments only followed everyone's desires no-one would pay taxes.

lazaroclapp• 9 years ago

Peaceful coexistence is one of those things where its desirability to society goes beyond personal preference. Not saying that there is no cost that is too high to pay for coexistence. However, in general "but they don't want to coexist" is a sign to look for ways in which that want itself might be fostered and differences reconciled, not an argument to let people hate each other to their heart's content. At least if you consider human life valuable, or, in modern nuclear-capable times, prefer the survival of the species to its potential extinction.

That said, I would still trust someone trying to reform that from within to be more likely to get it right, rather than people who have never lived in that society, and comment on it one way or the other in a programming forum (such as, particularly, myself).

tn1353• 9 years ago

It is an Islamic country and blasphemy is indeed punishable by death in Islam.

Contrary to what people might think India too has blasphemy laws and people are regularly jailed even for academic work on religion (mostly Islam) or even private comments that insult the prophet. [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countr...]

I looked up the history of India's blasphemy laws it is indeed a creation of British to outlaw criticism of Islam in India to maintain peace in their colony though now mostly used by Hindus. (Islamists simply hack people to death or put a bounty on people's head. They do not bother with courts).

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2014/02/banning-wendy-donig...

PhasmaFelis10• 9 years ago

It is an Islamic country and blasphemy is indeed punishable by death in Islam.

By some Muslims. Islam is not a monolithic entity and many Muslims manage to get by just fine without throwing fits about blasphemy, just as most Christians don't play much attention to the Biblical rules about not wearing mixed fabrics or cutting your beard.

notliketherest• 9 years ago

The biblical rules you site are from the pre-Christ laws. They were laws that needed to be followed to save man from the wrath of God. Christians believe that Jesus died and therefore took the punishment of their sins away, and all they need to do now is believe in him. So it's not the same at all. As far as I understand the laws of the Koran are very much the laws Muslims must follow.

Spooky23• 9 years ago

But even in the US, religious tribunals exist among different religious groups and sometimes cross the line between arbritraion and the law.

They are mostly ignored because well organized religious sects are politically powerful.

ng124• 9 years ago

But Christianity does not have an equivalent of Sharia (Pakistan has Sharia courts) nor does it have much to say about statecraft in general. Saying "not all Muslims" or outlining oddities from other religions does not do justice to Islam's role as a geopolitical force.

tn1353• 9 years ago

You are more than welcome to come to India and live in mostly Muslim regions such as Kashmir or West Bengal! :)

Living in muslim majority or heck even places where there are 20% muslims is absolutely hell. You will have to hear ajaan on a large loudspeaker all day, you will have to see kids hacking lambs in the residential areas during Eid and heck if you have to wear or celebrate Pagan festivals around the place of worship.

Liberalism is cool to preach while sitting in a Starbucks in Silicon Valley but incredibly hard to find it in nooks of certain parts of the world.

littletimmy4• 9 years ago

Here's some perspective from a Pakistani agnostic who supports blasphemy laws.

This article is an example of how people in the West really don't get how religious countries in the third world work. Because rule of law is absolute in Western countries, articles like this make it sound like the problem is the unjust law. That is absolutely false.

There are two major problems with blasphemy reform. The first problem is that the PEOPLE want blasphemy punished. There is a significant minority in Pakistan who is OK with a blasphemer being killed. It is not an unjust law imposed on people - the people WANT it. The second problem is that the rule of law in most third world countries is very weak. Which means that if people want something punished, and the law isn't there to punish it, they will take the law into their own hands. We saw this very recently when a huge mob lynched a university student who was accused of blasphemy. So... the people want blasphemy punished, and you cannot stop them from taking the law into their own hands. What do you do in this case?

Consider the options in front of a Pakistani politician who is personally against punishment for blasphemy. He can either revoke the law (at risk to his own life) and then watch as people form huge mobs who lynch people accused of blasphemy at random. He will be unable to control this because the police might empathize with the killers. OR he can impose blasphemy law, and then weaken implementation. When the blasphemy law is imposed, then people are discouraged from taking the law into their own hands. At the same time, he can weaken implementation to the point that no one Really gets punished for blasphemy (as in the case in Pakistan - the state does not execute people for blasphemy). With a blasphemy law, the religious nuts are appeased, and at the same time, with weak implementation, a semblance of freedom is maintained.

That means, the blasphemy law keeps the lid on the monster that is public opinion until it can be reformed. And that comes through education, where the Pakistani government is trying to make strides. (Unsuccessfully, I might add, since it is a poor country.) In any case, THAT is the logic behind blasphemy law - it prevents the country from descending into anarchy. It is easy to sit in a country with great rule of law to say that why are these people in third world countries making stupid laws, but the lawmakers in these countries aren't stupid. The obviously see that their people are backward, and there needs to be imperfect stopgap solutions until the country can implement better rule of law.

incompatible3• 9 years ago

In the case of the university student who was lynched, did the crowd even try to report him to the police and provide their evidence, or did they just go ahead with the lynching?

littletimmy4• 9 years ago

Apparently they reported to the university administration which failed to take action and may even have tacitly accepted the decision of the mob (presumably because of fear of reprisal themselves). But the good thing is now the police can take action against the killers because they took the law into their hands.

selimthegrim6• 9 years ago

The police (local, not university) were on the scene egging the crowd on, according to some reports from those university staff on the scene who weren't involved. The university security chief started it all with a threat to kill him at a staff meeting called to discuss his case.

int_19h8• 9 years ago

Did Pakistan have its blasphemy law in its current state since founding, or was it significantly broadened under Zia-ul-Haq?

selimthegrim6• 9 years ago

You may want to read Arafat Mazhar's excellent series of articles in DAWN on how exactly 295C came to carry only the death penalty. This is now way beyond some trophy to dull the masses into compliance. (The article is technically incorrect, by the way, the option of life imprisonment which existed under Zia was removed in 1990 during Nawaz' first term, entirely democratically)

privacyfornow• 9 years ago

As a general rule and as someone who grew up extremely religious in Pakistan, I started making fun of mohammad at every opportunity I got but the sad reality is that he was not a very funny man and that was that.

The reason Pakistan won't reform its blasphemy laws is that a large portion of the population will strangle the politician that tries to. This country (more than just about anywhere else in the islamic world) needs education for next two to three generations. The lack of action on this front has resulted in the tumor of religious bigotry and extremism to become a full fledged cancer that is now airborne. I don't support killing this patient, but forced quarantine and non-stop medication for next generation or two is the only way to save it and everyone else.

zodiakzz• 9 years ago

On the optimist side of things, the April 14th lynching of Mishal Khan at Abdul Wali Khan University has started a debate in the country about reforming these laws. There's been wide-spread support for Mishal among political leaders and common people. Supporting a blasphemy-accused person was a death sentence previously (see Salman Taseer).

It's also getting ridiculous lately with everyone being accused of blasphemy left and right, like even the Prime Minister lol - and the accusers are too stupid to realize that "blasphemy" is starting to lose all meaning. It's also got people thinking about requiring evidence for the purported "blasphemy". Currently you only need a clerk accusing you, without any evidence or witness and get ready to be lynched by a mob.

Source: Atheist/ex-Muslim living in Pakistan. Pretty open about it to all my Muslim relatives, although they probably keep it cool only because I'm more successful than them and they look up to me :P.

anilgulecha• 9 years ago

Can you elaborate a bit more on being an atheist in Pakistan? i had conducted a little bit of research a few years ago, but was unable to find any organizations that were openly atheistic (the best I could find were curated but anonymous blogs).

Technically which would be possible and to what degree: 1) being an atheist, 2) Informing immediate family and friends, 3) Informing the local/town community, 4) Widely publishing atheism via media.

Thanks

Why doesn’t Pakistan reform its blasphemy laws?

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