Working While Female

https://medium.com/@nickyknacks/working-while-female-59a5de3ad266#.24dxadggq

by zorpner • 9 years ago

48 36 9 years ago

I feel sorry for her, and her story is probably an example of sexism at the workplace. That is when her boss says that Martin's style is feminine and that that is bad.

However, the linked Martin's story is not a good test of sexism, because the one customer example is anecdotal and sometimes if you pretend to swap customer reps, you end up with a better experience because the customer feels like they are "starting over".

The week-long experiment is also a bad example because it is not a double blind test. Martin could have acted differently than he normally does knowing that he signs as a female.

And even if they did do a double-blind test, another reason for more rude replies directed at female employees could be that social expectations are different. That is the same word choice by people of different genders/sexes can imply different things. This is not necessarily "bad".

emsy4• 9 years ago

It could be entirely the men's fault. However, the article struck me as odd. She presented the issues seemingly from a moral high ground and overly black and white. It's somehow always the other's fault (even her helpful coworker). I get the impression that she's a troublemaker. Visiting her Twitter profile, she is out and "smashing the patriarchy". I think it's important to hear the issues of women in the workplace, but we shouldn't let the extremists take over the conversation.

Reading about a patriarchy in the US makes me escpacially angry, because it belittles the suffering from women under actual patriarchies.

gsch• 9 years ago

Reading about a patriarchy in the US makes me escpacially angry, because it belittles the suffering from women under actual patriarchies.

Oppression isn't a contest. It takes different forms in different places, and all of them merit smashing. This is not an "extremist" view by any measure.

emsy4• 9 years ago

Patriarchy is a clearly defined term and most western societies don't have one. Much like Hitler comparisons, it only dillutes the term and makes the original concept look more harmless.

alphabettsy4• 9 years ago

Why would one have to suffer from the most egregious examples of patriarchy to complain about patriarchy?

There is no reason for contest of wrongness.

prance2• 9 years ago

It could be entirely my fault. However, your comment struck me as odd. You presented the issues seemingly from a moral high ground and overly black and white. It's somehow always the other's fault. I get the impression that you're a troublemaker. Visiting your HN profile, you're out to convince people that having free speech implies that denying the Holocaust should be allowed. I think it's important to hear the issues of commenters such as you, but we shouldn't let the extremists take over the conversation.

Reading about a lack of a right to deny the Holocaust in Germany makes me especially angry, because it belittles the suffering and deaths of people who actually died in the Holocaust and other genocides.

emsy4• 9 years ago

You're conflating denying the Holocaust with the freedom to deny the Holocaust. I put this strawman away and note that you don't have a problem using millions of Nazi victims to make a point.

alphabettsy4• 9 years ago

This comment is startlingly similar to the parent above, wonder why?

mirage012• 9 years ago

I'd think if you were actually concerned with those suffering from oppression, you wouldn't rank their suffering in order of severity to determine what any of us should focus on first (as if we can only think about one thing at a time... and if there are bigger problems, why aren't you naming them and offering possible solutions we can act on? They're big problems that we belittle with our own problems, right? What are you referring to here?).

Then it appears you dismiss her entirely just because her Twitter has feminist things in it. That makes her an extremist somehow.

Mz• 9 years ago

Both sides really like to get all het up about whatever. Writing angry stuff gets more traffic. Statistics show this.

If you are reading this stuff and bitching about it instead of seeking out something more constructive, you are part of why this stuff keeps getting written, getting traffic, yadda. You are giving it the attention that helps keep it alive and thriving.

(I write about gender issues in a much more even-handed way. I get largely ignored and struggle to get any traffic. So I am not hugely sympathetic to your complaints.)

bArray3• 9 years ago

The boss was right about the "experiment". It simply wasn't enough proof to show that sexism exists in the work place.

1. One experiment run. 2. Only two participants. 3. At least one of the participants had a bias from the start of the experiment.

I find it difficult to believe this happens like this, at least after my personal experience of women working on par to men. One notable point has always been that it was men working over time when the opportunity arose, other than that things were equal. We shared good jokes, we went toe to toe with work motive. I don't know where people keep finding these places - but I don't think I ever worked in one.

peterwwillis8• 9 years ago

The whole point of the story is the guy who was her ally didn't even believe that she got treated differently, until he was mistaken for she. You will forever perceive there is no problem because you will never experience it first hand, and your lack of this personal experience feeds a confirmation bias.

LyndsySimon2• 9 years ago

I'm a man named "Lyndsy" - my experiences definitely don't match those of the author.

bArray3• 9 years ago

Maybe, but I do actually talk to both sexed colleagues outside of the workplace and ask how they're finding work. I find it difficult to believe they would lie to me, especially the gruntles we do share.

I think we can assume that even if this is the case, it's not the case everywhere. It's going to not be standard across the globe.

Also, if they share a customer - she may just be bad at her job. It's entirely possible that she is treated badly because she isn't very good.

It's also entirely possible that this company has shitty customers. Perhaps an all male company attracts a certain type of customer, that doesn't represent how all women are treated.

andreicon• 9 years ago

Pointing out that men are sexist is also sexist. Just my 20k satoshi.

prance2• 9 years ago

The fact that this is flagged gives strong evidence of the truth in this article.

vatotemking2• 9 years ago

The other thread about sexism is also flagged.

dang• 9 years ago

Not every article on this topic is equally substantive. The less substantive ones reliably lead to worse discussion.

In this case I would say the speaking from personal experience makes the article more substantive, so we turned off the flags.

vatotemking2• 9 years ago

Im glad HN has a voice of reason in the form of dang

peterwwillis8• 9 years ago

Why was this flagged? And how do I vote for it to be un-flagged?

The thing I find strange is she doesn't know why the boss would deny it's a problem even after addressed by multiple people (a man, even!) with actual evidence. Basically, accepting that the problem is real would imply negative, potentially painful things about the way he lives his life, treats others, and his self image, and so he has to cling to any possible excuse to dismiss the idea so his identity isn't challenged.

It's an ego response. When threatened, the ego shapes your conscious mind's reality to protect it. It's very similar to the defense mechanism that lets creationists believe the earth is 6,000 years old and jesus rode dinosaurs. Even actual evidence to the contrary doesn't phase them. Kind of like the men in this thread who ridicule the post and ignore the actual point of it that shows a man experiencing the behavior first hand.

jbob20002• 9 years ago

It's flagged because these "personal issues" articles appear constantly on HN, and they're all kinda the same. "He said this, I did this, somebody said this, I didn't like when this happened". It's just noise at this point, it's the same story but with different actors.

(I get that that in itself is a problem - that the issue isn't going away, evidenced by the continual posting of this articles - it just becomes a bit much for a casual internet message board)

peterwwillis8• 9 years ago

And you don't find that important? Don't you think seeing these stories constantly is a necessary part of eventually ending them? If we flag them all and they disappear, will we have helped end oppression, or helped perpetuate it? ("Neither" is not an option because flagging is taking direct action)

tptacek• 9 years ago

Articles on HN are routinely flagged for reasons independent of the substance of the article itself. You cannot judge the merit of an article, or even HN's opinion of its merit, from whether it's flagged.

LyndsySimon2• 9 years ago

I find it interesting that the author's male employee had such a terrible experience - but I'm a man named "Lyndsy", and I have never had such an experience.

Working While Female

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