“Proof” that Fuchsia will replace Linux for Google

https://techspecs.blog/blog/2017/2/15/proof

66 58 9 years ago

relics4433• 9 years ago

I find it hard to believe that 8+ years of APIs and OS level code would be abandoned just like that, especially given the scale of Android.

If this ever happens, it would probably be an extremely slow, well thought out (hopefully), well documented (also hopefully) rollout.

techenthusiast5• 9 years ago

That's what I'm saying :) An (extremely) gradual phase-out of the Android API.

relics4433• 9 years ago

I'm not sure the API can ever really be phased out due to the vast amount of legacy apps and libraries.

Besides I'm sure a lot of developers wouldn't be happy that their domain knowledge just went flying through the window. Even if that is a risk inherent in the job.

therealmarv2• 9 years ago

Exactly. This sort of switch seems for me also a good way to increase the amount of bugs by a large scale. It may only work for very specific hardware I think.

BrailleHunting2• 9 years ago

Job security and Apple-ish custom OS may long-term reduce support burden because Linux is like OpenSSL: a giant refrigerator, stove, oven, typewriter, glass kiln, laundromat kitchen-sink. It will take a very long time to reinvent the wheel and also deliver a PG "quantum of improvement," but there are plenty of Alphabet employees to do it. Also, similar Apple, it's an OS they control so there's less rejection / ignorning of Google's desired direction as with FLOSS.

cpeterso• 9 years ago

I agree. Why throw out the whole stack: kernel, APIs, and applications?

OTOH, why is Google developing the Fuchsia? It is clearly more than a hobby project.

rdtsc• 9 years ago

They've already replaced Dalvik with ART for bytecode and it was mostly transparent from what I understood.

But popping up with a completely new platform API without any backwards compatibility would be very bold and risky. There would have to be a good compatibility story there.

Also there is talk in the article about a POSIX layer. Now that's easier said than done. But it is Google we are talking about so they certainly have the manpower and resources to try.

loeg2• 9 years ago

It isn't too hard to do Linux ABI emulation. The interface there has mostly been stable for the last several years. That would enable just using the same userspace as Linux distributions like Android.

relics4433• 9 years ago

A new runtime is very different then a new framework/API/OS. The former doesn't necessarily require code changes (dalvik -> ART did not), the latter requires new everything.

Aissen• 9 years ago

They did not. ART is here on-device architecture-specific and version-specific; Dalvik bytecode is still the portable bytecode used in all APKs. If they had replaced it, we wouldn't still be dealing with the 65k methods limit for example.

techenthusiast5• 9 years ago

You wouldn't have to do it all at once. You'd emulate the Linux user space, and do everything incredibly gradually. Both APIs would be supported for many, many years. But they could stop advancing the Android API within a shorter timeframe.

arca_vorago• 9 years ago

I thought google would do something like this. They didn't want to fully embrace linux so they locked all the freedom of linux away behind restrictrions in android until they had a replacement and now they are going to try to drop gnu+linux anything GPL they can...

The new kernel is MIT/BSD... Welcome to Tivoization all over again.

I get the need for a better kernel, the gnu+linux kernel is out of control at over 14mil+loc, but why not put that effort into making a minix3 style microkernel that's gpl, or fix hurd?

I wish people understood the dangers of BSD style licenses, I hope this fails, the last thing we need is another proprietary OS on a device they built on the backs of the FOSS community but doesn't give back in a meaningful way.

We don't need another OSX, or android apps on your PC, we need someone with the money and will to fix the future of GNU!

caf• 9 years ago

I would wager that the majority of those sloc are not compiled into the typical Android kernel, though.

em3rgent0rdr5• 9 years ago

Right. And we have tools like git which are able to handle large codebases. People shouldn't conflate high LoC counts with bloat.

geofft• 9 years ago

Even if someone with the money and will somehow wanted to sponsor the development of GNU, why would that fix it? The same story will just play out again.

If you want this fixed, get someone with the money and the will to end the copyrightability of software. Or find a different solution to let users have control over their computing even when they don't have control over the OS - there's no fundamental reason why this should require legal solutions, as opposed to, say, cryptographic ones.

jsmeaton• 9 years ago

I don't understand the dangers of BSD style licenses, can you expand on that a bit please?

sitharus• 9 years ago

The "danger" is BSD licenses are highly permissive, you can take BSD licensed software, modify it and sell it and never return the changes to the community or release the source to customers.

This means all the work of the OSS community is 'free' for corporations to take.

jvreeland• 9 years ago

This is a pretty simplistic explanation, but the BSD license doesn't require you to provide the source to customers. Essentially the argument is that companies will consume FOSS software without contributing back improvements to the determent of the community.

flukus2• 9 years ago

The danger is that it can return to closed source at any time.

loeg2• 9 years ago

the last thing we need is another proprietary OS on a device they built on the backs of the FOSS community

If Google builds this kernel from the ground up and chooses to license it MIT, how is any binary derived from that "built on the backs of the FOSS community?"

em3rgent0rdr5• 9 years ago

because the android system was built off the labour of the Linux community.

flukus2• 9 years ago

They would likely keep a lot of the gnu userland. Let's not forget that google themselves are built on the backs of the FOSS community, without FOSS there might not be a google at all, certainly not an android.

yellowapple2• 9 years ago

"The new kernel is MIT/BSD... Welcome to Tivoization all over again."

1) Linux doesn't prevent tivoization, either; it uses the GPLv2, whereas anti-tivoization language was introduced in the GPLv3.

2) If Google wanted to make this proprietary, they could've made this proprietary. Why bother releasing it under an absurdly-permissive license if they wanted it to be proprietary?

"I wish people understood the dangers of BSD style licenses"

I wish people understood the dangers of copyleft licenses, particularly strict ones. The same exact rules preventing reuse in proprietary products apply to other FOSS projects as well. The GPL's "compatibility" with other FOSS licenses is a one-way street.

BSD-style licenses are literally as free as you can get (short of a license that's functionally equivalent to a public domain dedication). Any other license adds restrictions and reduces freedoms. Absolutely nothing about this project indicates "proprietary"; the license choice indicates the exact opposite.

supremesaboteur• 9 years ago

Will it be lightweight ? Will it have a shell ? Will it be customizable ? Will it have loads of third party applications ? Will it support non-Google hardware ? Will it finally bring serious OS innovation to the consumer desktop market ? Here is to hoping yes!

RubenSandwich• 9 years ago

I'm sorry but his "proof" is mostly just puns. Sometimes OSS projects are given pun names simply for laughs, not because of some deeper meaning. No doubt Google is researching new OSs, View Managers and development frameworks. (Every company that large does.) But I think it's too early to call it a potential successor; architecture takes a long time to change.

techenthusiast5• 9 years ago

https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fchrismck...

callalex• 9 years ago

You posted a link to a protected tweet that nobody can read with no summary or context.

therealmarv2• 9 years ago

Again this blog? Seems we have also fake news problems here on HN. This is all fairy tale speculating for me. And I don't believe his sources.

And btw: Tizen is also based on Linux. You don't build that easy a Kernel replacement.

pvg3• 9 years ago

That's not what 'fake news' means. It's perfectly clear the piece is speculative and it does not intentionally deceive (even if it turns out to be completely wrong).

em3rgent0rdr5• 9 years ago

The title is "Proof". The url has "proof". Not only is that a misleading click-baitey title, it is also false, because there is no proof.

frik• 9 years ago

It was pretty obvious for some time, but it's good that the dots are connected and documented, for some kind of proof. Fuchsia OS will be huge, even if it's hidden in the background.

Samsung has its Tizen OS (previously Bada) for 6 years as alternative ready. If anything happens with Android that Samsung doesn't like the could ship new devices simply with Tizen and kiss Google good bye. It allowed them to get better agreements. I wonder why Samsung waited that long, they had a near monopoly around 2012 with Android devices, now several new chinese players entered the market.

Samsung TV and Gear, and some phones run already on Tizen and some older on Bada. (Tizen is Linux based, it's history is complex and some involvement was also from Intel and Nokia (before the MSFT inside job)).

CaptSpify• 9 years ago

Have you used Tizen at all? How do you like it, if so?

pawadu4• 9 years ago

The first iteration was not very impressive, but has since steadily improved.

If I had to choose between Android+Fuchsia and Tizen+Linux I might as well give Tizen a try. I am very impressed by their new watch, which IIRC runs Tizen.

pavanky2• 9 years ago

That wasn't coherent at all. The only pieces of evidence are flimsy at best and then there is a shit ton of speculation.

rethab• 9 years ago

Doesn't putting "Proof" in quotes immediately disqualify it from being a proof?

em3rgent0rdr5• 9 years ago

No. Putting quotes around a word could mean a whole bunch of things.

LordWinstanley• 9 years ago

"reached out" in the first sentence. That saved me some time!

dynaxis• 9 years ago

Googlers reach out him and confirm his guess is largely right? I can't believe it. The Googlers, please reach me and tell whatever you told the author. I can sign you an NDA.

“Proof” that Fuchsia will replace Linux for Google

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