What Diaspora Should Do with their Newfound Fuckyoufacebook Money

http://blog.nextny.org/2010/05/13/what-diaspora-should-do-with-their-newfound-fuckyoufacebook-money/

by derekc • 16 years ago

58 50 16 years ago

blog.nextny.org

iamdave• 16 years ago

I'm perturbed that "Get to work" is number 5.

Get to work, build a product. Build a good product. The rest will fall into place.

derekc• 16 years ago

Should be #1 on that list.

telemachos• 16 years ago

Given how much money they've taken in, I think "Get organized" (i.e., some combination of 1,2 and 4 on the blog) probably needs to go before code.

As much money as they received brings its own responsibilities. They already have too much to just write something and then see what happens.

hugh3• 16 years ago

You might think so. But coding is the easiest part of what they need to do. Not only do they need to figure out exactly what feature set they need to implement, they need to have a plan to steal facebook users, a way of scaling up, and a counter-response to any response that facebook might attempt. This can't be a release-and-refine job -- their first version will launch with some media fanfare and unless it rapidly gains momentum it will fail.

Writing some code isn't the first step here any more than "fire some bullets" is the first step towards invading a country.

sketerpot2• 16 years ago

They already have some working code, and they're cheerfully hacking away on it as we speak. So I'd say the Diaspora guys are doing well at this "Get to work" thing.

(Diaspora guys, if you're reading this: good luck!)

stcredzero• 16 years ago

Some expectation management is in order. A message along the lines like: "We are going to proceed deliberately, in a step-by-step fashion. We are going to start small with X, then add Y and Z.". Then they should then follow that up by releasing early and often.

ube• 16 years ago

I think they provided that but it just wasn't obvious from the current entry of their blog. Check this out: http://joindiaspora.com/2010/04/30/a-response-to-mr-villa.ht...

What do you think?

joe_the_user3• 16 years ago

With all the hype, I actually had really low expectations.

But their plan seems really good - do as little practical themselves, produce a good protocol, go from there.

I'm look forward to their plan.

bradly• 16 years ago

Write some code.

dRother• 16 years ago

And maybe hire some experienced programmers/project managers to architect the system first? My experience with the code put out by fresh CS graduates is that it's a bit naive and by-the-textbook, not surprisingly.

marak• 16 years ago

there is a dearth of quality programmers in nyc who would help im sure

mortenjorck• 16 years ago

Architecture and user experience. They can afford some consultation time with the best in the business on both fronts right now, and both will be critical to their success.

thefool• 16 years ago

From my understanding, their plan was to first figure out what they wanted to do before they do it.

If I was them, I would spend the next few weeks figuring out what it is their building.

Having a blog is probably a great idea for them though.

pc• 16 years ago

Yishan Wong (early Facebook employee) gave an excellent answer to this question on Quora: http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-potential-obstacles-to-Dia.... (Quora is still in private beta, but I'd imagine many HNers have accounts.)

seiha• 16 years ago

I don't, but I'm interested in reading now that you've mentioned.

frisco• 16 years ago

Email me and I'll send you an invite.

zzzmarcus• 16 years ago

Since when I registered for Quora the TOS said my content could be pasted anywhere as long as there was a link back, I'm assuming it's okay to paste Wong's answer here as well. I couldn't find anything on their site that specifically says what license the content falls under, if someone finds out differently, lmk and I'll remove it.

Yishan Wong, Worked at Facebook from 2005-2010.

"As it stands, based on available technical and product details, Diaspora is the dumbest idea since OpenID.

Whereas OpenID absurdly required you to login using a URL (luckily no longer a requirement) in order to preserve your privacy, which no one really cares about, Diaspora apparently requires you to run your own set of web hosting services in preserve your privacy, which no one really cares about.

However, there are a sizable number of people who think they care about privacy, so there is a market for Diaspora.

The main problems with Diaspora being a successful parallel social network are: Most women will not use it. See reason #1.

Instead, I will describe a product formulation for Diaspora that I believe could be successful and achieve reasonable user adoption, by exploiting interoperability with Facebook while providing user-driven privacy controls. Diaspora guys, are you listening?

First, dispense with the personal hosting solution. This is a non-starter out of the gate. Anyone who is willing to run their own hosting solution (virtual or not) should just erase the personal details from their Facebook account, put their content on a personal webpage, and list the address for the webpage on Facebook. In fact, that's exactly what the web was in 1999.

Rather, this is how you do it for Diaspora. There are two key ideas:

People are unwilling to share personal information according to Facebook's defaults, but there is nothing preventing them from having an "empty" Facebook account populated with none of this personal information. Facebook does not (and cannot, physically) pull information from user accounts on third-party applications. Facebook can do what it will with information entered by users into its website, but information stored by third-party applications can't be taken and used by Facebook. (Technically, Facebook may cache this data in intermediate formats when it is rendered, but they would have to be really deliberately evil to be intercepting this data and using it)

Therefore, what Diaspora should do is become a Facebook Connect app. The irony here is delicious - users who wish to use Diaspora as a "privacy-oriented" Facebook will then do the following: Delete all their personal information on Facebook except for their name and perhaps an innocuous profile pic. Use Diaspora to provide all other core Facebook-style services, including the profile info fields.

Then, Diaspora renders itself either as canvas page or a profile tab, and displays the user's profile info for the user when other Facebook users browse to that user's page.

What this does is it places all of the user's personal information on Diaspora servers, which Facebook can then no longer access and send to third parties. Access control is provided by Diaspora (rendering of the profile tab or canvas pages can be controlled depending on who is viewing it). Users can still interoperate with other Facebook users, so they don't need to migrate their social graph, which is the greatest hurdle to Diaspora's adoption.

Diaspora can then offer users the options to store their information in an encrypted format (accessing this smoothly on behalf of friended users will make the product somewhat more complex, but I think it can be done by delegating keys properly), and make available the application code for inspection. They will still have to trust Diaspora's hosting to be running the same code, but I will describe a way to handle that.

Diaspora can open-source the code and allow other Diaspora installations to be set up, in case users don't trust Diaspora itself - a particular group of real-life friends who mutually trust each other can just host their own Diaspora installation and store their own information there. They will need to create a new app on Facebook but that's pretty okay - it will become known as a "Diaspora-style" profile if it ever becomes widespread. People will even be able to keep accounts on multiple Diaspora services, for the purposes of segregating their data, if they wish. The codebases for these services will also inevitably evolve and advance.

Interestingly, Diaspora does not necessarily need to provide photo hosting, events, groups, and other core Facebook services (but it can). Users can already exploit this property of Facebook not being able to access third-party data by using other photo hosting applications that they trust, and the same goes for all other applications. In fact, this is true today. The irony is remarkable, because much of the privacy worries center around how third-party sites can now access user data, but by flipping this around and placing the user data securely on a third-party site that makes itself a Facebook application, Facebook cannot access that data and thus give it to any other third parties. This is even the case when these third-party sites use Facebook Connect for their authentication, because it still only credentials the site to access Facebook data via API calls; it doesn't give Facebook the ability to pull stuff off of a third-party app's database or anything - the app itself is in control.

What is more, users can select the amount of privacy they want to personally protect. To transition, a user doesn't actually have to delete all their profile data off of Facebook (say you don't care if Facebook shares your hometown with the world, but you do care about your relationship status) - deleting all your Facebook data can be laborious. The user just deletes the fields they want to make more private, and transitions only that data on to a Diaspora service. It can then be managed with whatever higher-granularity and/or opt-in access controls provided by that service; the remaining data on Facebook that the user doesn't care as much about can remain under Facebook's dominion.

By allowing open-source clone services, every "clique" of users only has to rely on the local nerd to set up an installation, and all of the users in that clique will be able to migrate some or all of their data from Facebook onto their Diaspora service, and continue using Facebook without having to migrate their social graph.

Lastly, based on my understanding of the views and temperaments of Facebook's executives (including Mark Zuckerberg), they wouldn't ban this app and would in fact tend to look rather favorably on it, if with a bit of initial chagrin."

_sh• 16 years ago

I see this argument about Disapora a fair bit:

>Diaspora apparently requires you to run your own set of web hosting services in preserve your privacy, which no one really cares about

To me, this reads the same as "having an email address requires you to run your own email server". If Diaspora takes off, I'm sure it will be another check-box on ISP features lists.

Maro• 16 years ago

"Diaspora can open-source the code and allow other Diaspora installations to be set up, in case users don't trust Diaspora itself - a particular group of real-life friends who mutually trust each other can just host their own Diaspora installation and store their own information there."

Would you rather have Facebook employees, who don't specifically know or care about you have access to eg. personal conversations btw. you and your friends OR your friends, who might be the ones you're talking about?

neilk2• 16 years ago

Users can still interoperate with other Facebook users, so they don't need to migrate their social graph, which is the greatest hurdle to Diaspora's adoption.

No, the greatest hurdle to Diaspora's adoption is that Facebook doesn't provide the user with any means to export their own part of the social graph -- and in fact takes legal action against people who do.

I'm not interested in the argument of whether Facebook legally can or can't do this; the point is, for many people, this is not a world that they want to live in. Your suggestion doesn't do anything to address the central problem.

My next social networking service is going to provide me control over my social graph. It should also allow me to port basic profile features from one hosted service to another, much as I might do with an email address or a web site.

You're right that moving people off Facebook is going to be difficult, as there is a sunk cost issue. However, I doubt that the establishment of a Facebook-scale social network is going to be a unique event in human history, any more than MySpace or Friendster were. It may not be Diaspora that coaxes people away, but people will take the trouble if there are benefits to be had, and Facebook can't entirely stop all the tools to export friend lists.

Diaspora does not necessarily need to provide photo hosting, events, groups, and other core Facebook services (but it can).

Once again, the whole point is to interoperate seamlessly with services outside anyone's walled garden, especially for commonly shared items like photos, events, and discussion. It is already deeply annoying to have to make separate invites for Facebook and non-Facebook friends. I can't believe that you are even seriously proposing a dual system this while touting your own expertise on what users really want.

BTW, I personally have tried to make an FB app that unified Facebook events with events from other services such as Upcoming.org, and FB's API thwarted me in this regard. Certain bugs made it impossible to distinguish between the user's private and public Facebook events, so my app was inadvertently publishing private events to their FB page. Some of my users complained loudly about this -- you know, that privacy stuff that users don't care about. So I determined this was due to a FB API bug, but amazingly the developers WONTFIX'ed it as a documentation bug (the assertion that the API provided privacy was the "bug"!)

But that's what we get for relying on a service provided by kids just out of college who think they're god's gift to programming.

So, no, I'm not buying that one again.

No matter how well-funded, Diaspora is just one team with zero track record, so they're not likely to be the solution to these problems. But I'm definitely looking for something that fits the bill, and I highly doubt it's going to be a Facebook app.

kragen• 16 years ago

The app being described is The Green Safe, and already exists: http://apps.facebook.com/thegreensafe/index.php

erikbigelow• 16 years ago

So basically you're saying don't fight it just let the warm embrace of facebook envelope you and take over.

Why do I see the scene in the Matrix when Agent Smith would touch someone and they would become another Agent Smith when I read this?

Hendryx• 16 years ago

BTW, OpenID was never about privacy... it was about providing a single login solution. I know that this is a copy and pasted peace, but it kind of kills the credibility of the whole post when they start with attacked OpenID and clearly show they have no idea what OpenID really is.

dangelo• 16 years ago

You're right that it's ok to repost Quora content anywhere as long as it includes a link - more details here: http://www.quora.com/How-can-material-on-Quora-be-reused-els...

jacquesm• 16 years ago

There is a flaw in part of the arguments here, people are not just concerned about the stuff they themselves give to facebook, but also about the stuff that others in their 'friends graph' are writing about them, and the tagging of photos without name by third parties.

Looking through the 'friended' pages of people with empty profiles can give a significant amount of information on the people whose profiles are blank.

joe_the_user3• 16 years ago

Hmm,

I can't help but feel, uh, angry, at experts - Wong or Zuckerberg or whoever - who claim that no cares about privacy, they just "think they care about privacy". When employers, potential employers and potential-stalkers are all actively Googling people, a large portion of the population should care about privacy. I'd say the opposite is true to Wong's glib statement - the people will care more and more about privacy as they learn all the implication.

Anyone who's vulnerable in one way or another will care about privacy - the simplest examples are employees who's job situation is insecure and women and children who might face threats from stranger. Anyone that a state might look askance at would another example (and it's not just the US state).

textfiles• 16 years ago

Isn't it awesome when a person has drank so much of the Kool-Aid that they're spewing Kool-Aid when they talk, and their idea of breaking out of the Kool-Aid mold they were in is to create new Kool-Aid and disparage non-Kool-Aid things because they have features or outlooks that don't resemble Kool-Aid?

frederickcook• 16 years ago

So, as I understand it, all this money is to work on an open source project, which is quite different than a startup. Now a well-done open source project inevitably leads to a company (Wordpress, MySQL, etc.) but that isn't what they said they were going to do with the money. (Somebody has to host all these nodes for joe-everybody.)

Are there contractual obligations of raising money with Kickstarter, or can they use this for legal fees?

If they can't use the money for a startup, I doubt they'd have trouble raising money for a company separately, though investors know that any software product developed will be open source.

seldo3• 16 years ago

The original request was for $10,000 to cover their living expenses for 3 months. Now they have $170k, they really have no obligation to do anything with it other than support themselves for 3 months. So anything else is just gravy. Which is why it is so COMPLETELY ridiculous that they have been given so much money, especially given that they don't have a product or even a detailed design of a product. They just have a lot of good intentions.

gruseom• 16 years ago

If it works, it won't seem ridiculous at all. I like the pluralism of this experiment. The odds are nothing will come of it, but that's what the odds nearly always are.

rubyrescue• 16 years ago

original article http://www.thisisgoingtobebig.com/blog/2010/5/13/what-diaspo...

risotto• 16 years ago

OSS hints:

Create a repo

Post code

Accept patches

Tag releases

Maybe set up bounties for feature requests? The money kind of fucks up typical OSS dev projects, now that I think about it. But there are more than enough OSS hackers out there that will help. And having a "blessed" project helps too.

I'm eager to contribute actually.

kmavm• 16 years ago

I suspect the first of many lessons Diaspora would do well to learn from Facebook: the hype cycle giveth, and the hype cycle taketh away. Right now, they're hipster Linus times four, getting fawning press coverage, and raking in donations from credulous blog-readers. Several months hence, with nothing that anybody would want to use working*, they may find the media, and many whose checks they cashed, suddenly less snuggly-wuggly.

theoneill• 16 years ago

Raking in pledges, not donations. I wonder what the conversion rate is.

SudarshanP• 16 years ago

Getting that money would have freaked me out :)) making it impossible to do anything very productive under the glare of such media attention. If I were them here is what I would do:

1. Get organised.

2. Code for 3 months and then stop for some time and keep 10,000$ for the effort.

3. Start an Americal Idol/The Apprentice like program to create actual code in phases.

4. Setup a Jury with 3 luminaries like Bruce Schneier as judges.

5. Opensource projects can participate for bounties to create various pieces of the jig saw puzzle. The entire contest would not involve any actual travel. Just a mob of coders checking into GitHub and Google code and so on. Their own code also gets to participate in the contest ;-).

6. Try get guys like Larry Page involved... LOT of people apart from the poor geek on the street want to see FB dead ;-).

Note: These guys are celebrities now. They can easily become notorious. They are young. The best thing for them to do to themselves is to not get a bad name by blowing away the dough. If they keep the money away/use it as a catalyst for the FB killer, they will earn goodwill worth millions.

They can "encash that goodwill" over time. With their skills+goodwill they can at a future date start a real startup through a program like YC maybe even in an entirely different domain, and earn fortunes. Their greatest asset right now is that a LOT people will now listen to them for a short time. If they manage to pull it off, even more people who matter will LISTEN to them. That would translate to a lot more than the millions they may raise right now.

Wishing them luck. Hope they will be billionares some day. but not from donations, but from a real startup they create in either social networking or another area that really brings value to its customers.

Sudarshan.P

puredemo• 16 years ago

The first thing I would do is hire someone to take care of PR so I could focus on coding.

nl• 16 years ago

They should look at SocNodes: http://www.socnode.org/

In particular, there is some real, actual, working code: http://www.socnode.org/code, using PubSubHub for near-instant updates across multiple distributed sites.

The code there is in Python, but there is a (my) half-Java implementation linked from there too.

joe_the_user3• 16 years ago

Looks nice but SocNodes doesn't solve the problem of limiting information to friends.

It's a nice simple idea though, and perhaps it could be one layer of a solution.

tezza• 16 years ago

My advice: Clone Cloud27 [1] and get an initial version for people to play with.

Then fill out the more distributy bits later.

----

[1] http://cloud27.com/ its BSD licensed (IIRC) so should be good to clone/fork immediately

source: http://www.djangosites.org/s/cloud27-com/