What Former Employees Say ITT Tech Did to Scam Its Students

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/12/07/502601724/what-former-employees-say-itt-tech-did-to-scam-its-students

by happy-go-lucky • 10 years ago

120 79 10 years ago

fecak3• 10 years ago

The rule set out in the ITT training materials instructs recruiters to call "a minimum of three times a day for the first three days." This was known as the 3x3 rule.

That is bordering on harassment by most standards. Taking advantage of the underemployed has been happening for years, and in tech I remember when MCSE training programs were mostly marketed towards blue collar employees. Many graduated as "paper MCSEs" who were largely unable to get a job.

I hope that bootcamps and accelerated learning programs for developers don't eventually go this route. They seem to be behaving to this point.

Unbeliever692• 10 years ago

There are some bootcamps that are owned by for-profit education companies.

fecak3• 10 years ago

Understood. Hopefully the for-profit model can still co-exist with some decency when it comes to wooing students.

mc32• 10 years ago

I don't even understand bow that 3x3 rule would work to woo anyone. When I get more than one call like that be it car dealer, hardware vendor, solutions provider, etc. I tend to run away from them --it just loudly announces "desperation".

That said, if they do it this much, it must work enough for them to pursue this tactic.

pavedwalden• 10 years ago

I knew a self-taught programmer who was a little sensitive about his lack of formal training. Sometimes he'd tell the story of when he was 19 and talked to a recruiter at ITT Tech and the school had 'wanted him' so much that they kept calling his house but his parents just couldn't afford it (thank goodness).

He was a smart guy from a background where going to college wasn't on the menu. He managed to learn an impressive amount on his own, but I think that was one of the only times he'd felt welcomed or encouraged in his interests.

____nope• 10 years ago

They already are. I've talked to some recruiters who laugh at bootcamp programs on a resume. A few years ago nobody would ask me about my academic background in a job interview, but now they've started asking explicitly. I've been out of school for seven years, and nobody cared about my CS degree until this year.

The reality is that degrees and certifications will be used in hiring as long as they are a useful indicator of aptitude. HR departments need to eliminate candidates from the hiring pool. At their zenith, the bootcamp programs were useful for recruiters because only the truly dedicated survived the bootcamp long enough to graduate. But with the proliferation of such programs, I think the day is quickly approaching when the market will be oversaturated with graduates and it will cease to be a useful indicator of aptitude.

ThrustVectoring4• 10 years ago

Degrees and certifications aren't about finding aptitude. They're about protecting the hiring agent from the political fallout of bad hires. "It's not my fault I hired someone who couldn't program well. I mean, he went to Stanford."

fecak3• 10 years ago

I think you're confusing tech recruiters with those who recruit students for bootcamps.

The ITT recruiters are aggressive in getting students into the program. You are referencing agency recruiters (or perhaps internal recruiters at companies)'discriminating against candidates without a degree (or with a Bootcamp cert).

paulcole• 10 years ago

That is bordering on harassment by most standards.

Which standards are you referring to and what border is this approaching?

Unbeliever692• 10 years ago

No news here. To be honest, these practices are used by all marketers.

throwaway729• 10 years ago

From the article:

They're looking for not just any customer ... but a customer who's likely to be kind of desperate to enroll, and likely to be eligible for the highest amount of financial aid

Pushy marketers are all good and well until you start raiding the public coffer while under-delivering. If ITT Tech wasn't dependent on your tax dollars and other legal protections, they'd still be in business today.

gozur882• 10 years ago

How is this different from nonprofit schools? If you get a junk degree from a school that costs $60k/yr, does it really matter that they're incorporated under a different section of the tax code?

johnward4• 10 years ago

Their marketing tactics are probably the least shady thing they do. Source: former "student".

1337biz• 10 years ago

go on...

sethrin3• 10 years ago

And it got personal. On-campus visits began with a questionnaire, the WITY, or "what's important to you."

Interestingly, I remember the same tactics being used by the last Marine recruiter that I talked to. He had little flashcards you were supposed to rank in order, with various ideals like honor and financial security that you were supposed to rank in importance. I thought at the time that it was a pretty transparent trap, but I imagine it works pretty well. However, if we're going to suggest that these tactics and empty promises are immoral, are we to also hold the military accountable?

alasdair_2• 10 years ago

I would hope so, especially because the military is unlike any other kind of employment - you can't simply say "fuck you, I quit" once you're signed up and realize the promises made were empty ones.

linkregister8• 10 years ago

What empty promises are you referring to?

linkregister8• 10 years ago

Military recruiter service schools are dominated by sales training. Wouldn't you expect that its omission would be a waste of taxpayer funding?

The key difference between the standard sales techniques when they're used by ITT or by any other organization is that ITT was making promises it couldn't keep. When I get the hard sell about a new car, at least I get a functional car even if I overpaid. If I take out loans to attend ITT, it's likely the training won't help me get a job.

sethrin3• 10 years ago

Should military recruitment be focused on maximizing recruits?

crazypyro• 10 years ago

ITT was making promises it couldn't keep

I've never been in the military, but from what I've heard from those who have, this is exactly what military recruiters do. They tell people they will get $XX,XXX signing bonus, but the reality is only a tiny portion will pass all the required training and get placed in a specific type of unit to get that money.

Granted, there a lot of real benefits that they can sell recruits on, but recruiters will tell every 18 year old that they can be in special ops when its not the reality.

RUG3Y2• 10 years ago

I worked recruiting in the military. I've also done sales outside of the military. Recruiting is basically just high pressure sales. Many recruiters are facing nearly impossible numbers and will do just about anything to get a candidate into the system.

gozur882• 10 years ago

How do you get stuck with that job? Seems like something nobody would want to do.

gohrt3• 10 years ago

"we" who? You gotta pick: a draft, recruiting, or less war machine

mikeash• 10 years ago

Or pay more.

metaphor• 10 years ago

...are we to also hold the military accountable?

The military trains you, pays you, houses you, feeds you, and provisions your family. Apparently, these for-profit scams can barely address the first the first bullet, let alone a full-ride-all-expenses-paid program, regardless if it's as bumpy as the Marines make it.

wccrawford3• 10 years ago

"Maybe if you give them too much information, they won't want to come in."

Perceptive, since that's exactly the reason I ask so many questions before I physically drive out to meet someone. On the other hand, refusing to answer questions is pretty much guaranteed to put my guard up, too, which is contrary to their goals.

I'm an ITT graduate. I experienced none of what was in the article. That may have been their tactics at some point, but it wasn't used on me in the early 00's. Perhaps the person who was talking to me knew their job really well and knew it wasn't a good idea.

In the end, I learned nearly nothing (I was self-taught already and mostly wanted the paperwork) and got a 4.0 GPA. I watched others around me struggle with basic programming. Most of them quit, and I graduated with about 4 others in that program.

They claimed that a high percentage of their graduates had jobs when they graduated, but what they didn't make clear was that those jobs weren't necessarily in their field. I didn't have a job at all, most others didn't have a job in IT, and the 1 who did got it on their own at their current employer, Disney. Despite them providing no leads, they blamed my lack of job on me and how I approached it. No attempt was made beyond basic resume and interview coaching. That guy ended up getting fired after my father made a huge stink about it repeatedly. (He wasn't the only one, I gathered.)

When I did get hired, it was by a company that cared more about my skill than anything, and I actually looked worse on paper than the other main candidate. The company paid for BrainBench exams and I blew the other guy away, which got me hired. The paperwork I cared so much about has never been useful. The original estimate was $30k. I paid $23k because I transferred in some credits and tested out of others.

beachstartup• 10 years ago

curious - now that you have experience do you include or omit the ITT degree on your resume?

SteveNuts• 10 years ago

I'm not OP but I did go to a similar for-profit school that has since shut down.

I can say the degree definitely helped me get a job, but now that I have 7 years of experience, I no longer list it on my resume. I'm a systems administrator/engineer.

It never comes up...

wccrawford3• 10 years ago

It's been a while since I've applied for a job, but I will definitely list it on my resume, still. It doesn't actually seem to be a negative, so I figure there may be some pencil-pusher that needs to see a degree to satisfy some requirement, maybe.

My 10+ years of work experience, 15+ years of non-work experience before that, and my title of "senior software engineer" are plenty to make them seriously consider me for a position, even before I list my accomplishments.

In short, my resume is now filled out enough that it can't hurt and still might help, so it stays on there.

narrator• 10 years ago

The paperwork I cared so much about has never been useful.

Going to school just for the paperwork is kind of a bad idea. Ideally, one should learn something useful when getting a degree. Just pointing out the obvious which seems to be overlooked here.

tekromancr• 10 years ago

Except in America, every student has the notion that if they don't get a college degree, they will end up homeless and destitute.

bgilly• 10 years ago

Getting the paper can be useful by itself. For example, when working abroad, some countries require an advanced degree in order to get a residency or work visa.

sathackr• 10 years ago

Not that bad of an idea when most job listings making more than $40k has "4-year degree at an accredited college" listed as minimum requirements. Without that, your resumé doesn't even make it through the screen door.

It doesn't matter that you have 25 years of experience and run circles around people with Masters degrees. You never even make it far enough in the door to show that.

taternuts• 10 years ago

It used to make getting higher end jobs a lot easier, and a lot of companies still require a college degree for certain positions

johnward4• 10 years ago

Honestly, the hiring process seems to favor the paper over the skills. If you have those skills and no paper you will not even get a call for 90% of jobs. I still get screened out for having an associates degree with 10 years in the field.

johnward4• 10 years ago

learned nearly nothing (I was self-taught already and mostly wanted the paperwork) and got a 4.0 GPA. I watched others around me struggle with basic programming. Most of them quit, and I graduated with about 4 others in that program.

Went in 04 with a HighSchool buddy. Neither of our parents went to college so we didn't really know any better. We put forth absolutely no effort and were miles beyond our classmates. Both graduated with 4.0 without ever touching the material. After I got my first position the education stopped mattering as much. I split test leaving education off of my resume and linked profile to see if it makes a difference.

wnevets• 10 years ago

and counties all across the US are turning to for profit schooling for their children.

talmand• 10 years ago

Just to note, not all for profit education is bad.

mulletbum• 10 years ago

Specifically ones that don't profit off of debt paid by third parties.

gohrt3• 10 years ago

Soon to be the national policy from the Federal government.

whack• 10 years ago

To be honest, every single tactic mentioned in the article sounds like Marketing/Sales 101. What's really scary is how effective they are. It boggles my mind how many people make life decisions, both major and minor, on the basis of such sales tactics, instead of doing their own research or relying on trusted sources.

What Former Employees Say ITT Tech Did to Scam Its Students

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