A Muslim “registry” doesn't require a single registration, just data

http://jthess.com/blog/2016/11/17/and-i-did-not-speak-out.html

by johnhess • 10 years ago

26 66 10 years ago

This gets brought up every other thread on the subject of 'registries' for minority groups, but if you haven't you really should read IBM And The Holocaust:

The upshot is that Germany used their census data to figure out who is and isn't a Jew, but they also used records from synagogues, surname analysis, and other pre-war 'big data' sources along with incredible amounts of IBM equipment to compile their list of undesirables.

https://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Strategic-Alliance-Corp...

With the NSA, Donald Trump will have access to more information about the demographics of American populations and who comprises them than the Third Reich ever had about its own citizens. There will be no registries. And in the throes of a national security hysteria comparable to the fears of influence from anarchism in the early 20th century, there will be no internal will at these agencies to oppose him.

proksoup• 10 years ago

"IBM CEO Personally Offers Company’s Services to Donald Trump"

[1] https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/ibm-ceo-personally-offer... [2] https://twitter.com/yogthos/status/799060608561872896

464192002d7fe1c• 10 years ago

An interesting book, for sure.

The thing of it was, while they made some very interesting connections they didn't particularly make one that IBM (America) directly knew about the literal holocaust.

Now, IBM definitely knew their technology was being used to catalogue specific groups, and thus that that technology was being used to facilitate mass involuntary migrations of those people. What I don't recall (I read this book when it first came out in 2001), is if they knew (or should have reasonably known) that those people were being killed. When I think of the Holocaust, I associate that more with the deaths of those people and less with the forced migrations/etc. Both are terrible, of course, but one is obviously far worse.

In any event, that's a very good book to read, even if ultimately I find culpability for IBM to be somewhat tenuous.

I'm glad I don't live in a country/world where anyone is proposing registering anyone, Muslim or Jewish.

celticninja• 10 years ago

whilst one is considerably worse than the other, both were morally repugnant and the 'lesser' offence would now be illegal due to discrimination laws (if they were not illegal then for other/similar reasons). So IBM should have had some awareness of what was happening. In much the same way that we consider Hacking Team selling hacking services to the Syrian government as essentilly being involved with the dissappearance or torture of political activists so we should hold IBM to account for their involvement.

mikeyouse2• 10 years ago

New documents came out after the book was published that showed that IBM had specific punch cards for each concentration camp, each reason (homosexual, Jew, antisocial, gypsy,etc.) and for manner of death (natural causes, suicide, death by gas chamber).

The SS had to be trained, the machines had to be maintained, and the cards had to be updated. IBM engineers were on site at each concentration camp throughout most of the war.

aikah4• 10 years ago

With the NSA, Donald Trump will have access to more information about the demographics of American populations and who comprises them than the Third Reich ever had about its own citizens.

Because the NSA was in good hands during Obama right ? No Trump isn't Hitler and the USA aren't going to turn into the Third Reich, it will be no better or worse that the current situation under Obama. The US president doesn't have total power over this country.

Stop the insane fear mongering.

legodt6• 10 years ago

No, but this new president is appointing a series of people with white nationalist leanings to a variety of posts within the government that do hold a lot of power. It is perfectly reasonable to be in fear right now. Action is always better, but it takes time to reel from and better understand this new threat to minorities and marginalized groups in the US

unimpressive2• 10 years ago

If you'll notice, everything in that statement was strictly factual. While the Mussolini vibes Trump gives off are moderately concerning, I'm much more concerned that our government is already configured such that you can plop a dictator in the cockpit and they don't have to do any extra work for totalitarian surveillance.

Also you're right, the president does not have total power over this country. Which is why it's fortunate for the president elect that he has a cooperating house and senate.

hackuser7• 10 years ago

It came out recently that the US Census Dept helped the government identify Americans of Japanese decent for internment.

akytt• 10 years ago

Exactly. Which means the resistance to building a functional population registry does not prevent any wrongdoing but stops the society from getting any of the gains. Like having a meaningful way to prevent non-citizens from voting, avoid identity theft etc.

throwaway729• 10 years ago

"Graph theory" of the sort that's used in social network analysis will become the lie detector test of the 21st century -- junk science based on a poor interpretation of elementary mathematics applied to dubious data sets.

TheSpiceIsLife• 10 years ago

The prospect even more terrifying than a show-up-and-be-recorded registry is that governments and private companies already have all they need to secretly create that registry overnight.

Facebook already has all of this data, for users and many non-users.

Start panicking.

ythn2• 10 years ago

Good job everyone for letting the government gain so much power. I've said it before and I'll say it again: monolithic governments that have fingers into every aspect of your lives are dangerous.

Thrillington• 10 years ago

And your alternative is?

ythn2• 10 years ago

My alternative is small federal government that leaves a lot more power to states.

Cyph0n10• 10 years ago

As a Muslim American, I am absolutely in awe, and simply shocked that something like this has come up at all. If this trend continues, I will definitely leave the US as soon as I finish up my degree.

Last week, my state Georgia tried to pass a bill that would effectively ban wearing the hijab (headscarf) in public. Thankfully, there was a huge amount of backlash and the bill was withdrawn.

dominotw5• 10 years ago

I am a Muslim too. I faced more everyday discrimination and derision in my native India than I ever faced here in the United States. Sure is an occasional bigot who calls me a terrorist and asks me to go back , but that is nothing compared to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing pogrom in Gujarat only a couple of years ago. I have friends here from the middle east who claim the same and know shia vs sunni vs whatever animosity is much worse that a registry could ever be. You just need to look at post war Iraq where fundamental US mistake was underestimating how much these people hate each other and everyone else.

I remember when I was a kid people wouldn't rent a place to us because we were muslims, something that is still widely practiced in India. Vast majority of Americans are not bigots and as a society they have enacted anti-discriminatory laws that are heavily enforced at all levels of society. You have legal recourse here if you are discriminated against, something that's unimaginable in India.

Cyph0n10• 10 years ago

I am aware of the atrocities that are committed against Muslim/Sunni/Shia/Ahmadi/etc. minorities all over the world and in no way do I condone such policies. I am truly sorry for what you had to go through, brother/sister. There is always someone who had it worse, I guess.

And yes, I completely agree; it's much better in the US right now. But if this "plan" goes through, what do you think will happen next? Do you really think that they'll stop there and call it a day? Probably not.

aikah4• 10 years ago

If this trend continues, I will definitely leave the US as soon as I finish up my degree.

To go where? because you think things are better abroad?

Cyph0n10• 10 years ago

A place that doesn't have a Muslim registry? My current goal is Sweden, if I can find a suitable research position in my field after I graduate.

Worst case scenario, I can go back to my home country Tunisia. I'm proud that Tunisia is making progress towards becoming the Middle East's first post-Arab Spring success story.

For now, I'm happy in the US. It's a great country and I'm proud to be an American :)

hackuser7• 10 years ago

FWIW, most other Americans support you and share your shock and outrage. Clinton won a majority, remember, despite being targeted by domestic and foreign security agencies, as well as by the Murdoch/Fox empire and the rest of the right-wing demonization machine. Obama is very popular. (EDIT: That's not meant to be partisan; it's just clear data that many people oppose religious hatred - many Republicans do too.)

I hope people get organized now. I hope bad things don't happen, but only by being organized can people act to protect their rights. As a simple example, look at the NRA.

charlesism4• 10 years ago

    > FWIW, most other Americans support you 
    > and share your shock and outrage.

It's nice to have faith in humanity and everything, but "half" is more accurate than "most"

whybroke• 10 years ago

Unless the point of forcing a physical signature is to terrorize that group as much as to collect names.

For example, lynchings were not intended as genocide but to keep blacks in fear as much as being a source of psychological indulgence for the murders.

hackuser7• 10 years ago

We're not bystanders; our industry is the most important facilitator of this problem and we understand the causes, implications and solutions far better than anyone. We have a serious responsibility to our fellow citizens, just as the food industry has a responsibility not to poison everyone. What are you and your company doing about it? You have 2 months lead time before your competitor starts rolling out their products:

* Is your company minimizing and anonymizing user data? Is it implementing end-to-end encryption?

* If your product is hard for users to avoid (e.g., an ISP is hard to avoid, a casual game is not), do you provide a way for users to utilize it confidentially?

* Users need private alternatives, which means that FOSS projects need a lot of help making their products much more usable and reliable; can you help out?

If you are thinking, 'my little portion won't solve the problem', you're right. Nothing gets done in a democracy unless people all do their little portions, and unless they organize. The United States is the 'Land of the Free' only if its citizens make it that way.

....

Also see here: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/11/tech-companies-fix-the...

hackuser7• 10 years ago

Concerns about privacy were considered theoretical by so many for so long. At least now we know the theory, but we need to implement and deploy it ASAP.

jgalt212• 10 years ago

Not to be flip, but given what Snowden told us, I'm pretty sure this registry already exists.

A Muslim “registry” doesn't require a single registration, just data

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