Ask HN: How to promote side project being a developer with no marketing skills?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12730331

by rafapaez • 10 years ago

74 30 10 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I've made a few side projects during the last years. Most of them are not longer online. I built this one during the last Xmas: https://www.coderlevel.com/ and I'm currently making this one: http://www.transparentstartups.com/

Unfortunately I'm terrible at promoting those projects or websites, so after a few months of work I usually end up giving up about them.

I find Software Development reasonably easy in general. I can convert my ideas into MVPs in a few weeks. However I struggle a lot with the Marketing side of it.

Have you been in the same situation in the past? How did you overcome it?

oldmancoyote• 10 years ago

Devise a way to find someone to do it for you, someone who knows what he is doing. Don't try to do marketing yourself. Yes, you could probably do it if you worked hard enough and long enough, but the same could be said of open heart surgery. It's not an efficient way to do things.

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

It makes sense. I'm learning a lot doing it myself and I'm actually getting some contacts / networking. However sometimes I feel like I not advancing with my project development as quick as I should because I spend most of my time hooked on reaching people (on Twitter, HN, PH, Reddit, etc.).

recmend• 10 years ago

My side project Nucleus Digest https://digest.meetnucleus.com index of great startup articles.

I promoted on Product Hunt, HN, Relevant Subreddits.

Ongoing: publish content on twitter, point resources to HN, Reddit, GH community questions etc.

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

I recently managed to get a "successful" (> 500 votes) launch on ProductHunt as well. Got a few feedback and seems people loved the idea.

However I feel I need constantly keep posting and commenting everywhere about the site to keep the momentum and some visits.

BTW, I like your Nucleus Digest project. Nice work!

huwshimi3• 10 years ago

I have been in exactly the same position a number of times over the years. One day I realised that the reason I gave up promoting them is that I never really knew how my marketing efforts were doing so it always felt a bit futile.

This actually inspired my current project, which is all about measuring the results of your marketing (http://flockmetrics.com).

I think several things are helpful here. Understanding the key benefits of your product and figuring out who will most benefit from those features.

Once you know that you need to figure out how to explain your product in a way that those people can understand how it helps them and then you need to find those people.

I personally have found once I've been through that process and can see that I have a product that will make peoples lives easier it motives me to want to get the product to those people.

jazoom4• 10 years ago

It's sad their pricing model punishes you getting more users so harshly. It's quite expensive for only 1000 new users.

huwshimi3• 10 years ago

The pricing is based on the number of signups per month, so that's 1000 new users per month. Do you feel like that pricing wouldn't work for your situation?

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

Hey, thanks for your comment. I totally understand what you said about creating your FlockMetrics project inspired by solving a real personal necessity.

Actually I built (http://www.transparentstartups.com/) because I couldn't find a place where look for startups and founders that are sharing their experiences with real numbers in a transparent and authentic way.

I feel very happy every time a developer, entrepreneur or "wantrepreneur" sends me a message about how he loves the project and how much he managed to learn from the startups and the information he found on the site. I believe that's more valuable than anything else.

It seems to me I need to find out the way to ensure this reaches to more people with the same interests and I can keep providing them a constant flow of value.

tedmiston3• 10 years ago

It's not totally clear to me what Flock Metrics adds on top of Google Analytics (aside from a much cleaner, simpler interface).

joshontheweb• 10 years ago

I found this helpful. http://devmarketing.xyz/

It was just an ebook when I bought it but now its has videos as well. It is a quick no-nonsense read that gives you a good foundation to work from.

mijustin• 10 years ago

Hey, I'm the guy behind that site ↑. I just checked out transparentstartups.com, and have a few tips that might help you:

1. Identify why you're building the project. Do you want to earn $100,000 in revenue? Build a public profile? Grow an email list for future projects?

2. Determine who exactly your project is for. Is it for investors? Aspiring startup founders? People spying on their competition?

3. Clearly articulate what that audience's major struggle is. Why would they visit transparentstartups.com? How does your site make them better? How does it improve their lives?

4. Cater all your landing page copy to your audience, their primary struggle, and how your site makes them better.

5. Figure out where those people hang out. In your case it's here on HN, Product Hunt, certain Reddit sub-reddits, Slack groups, etc... Find those communities, join, and share your story (you're actually doing a good job in this thread already). Look for ways you can answer questions on the topic of startup revenue, and point people to your site when appropriate.

These 5 initial steps form the foundation for everything that comes after.

If you understand: your motivation, the people you're looking to help, how you're helping them, and where they hang out, you'll have everything you need to start promoting your project.

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

Hey Justin! Thank you very much for your time on writing this great comment. You made a good point here so I'm going to follow your advice around those tips.

At the moment, the only thing I know for sure is WHY I'm building it. Curiously, I did read some time ago your excellent post about the "The freedom ladder" (https://justinjackson.ca/freedom/). I realised I needed to startup from the bottom. I'd say I'm in the 2nd or 3rd step of the freedom ladder, so I aim to: Make a small project, Release for free, Help people and Build my audience. Obviously, it would be nice to get some revenue later, so I can dedicate my full time to help others with my project, but that's not a priority for me at the moment.

I'll continue working not defining those points. I'll also definitely check your book and related new interactive course.

Great thanks!

Rafa

jurgenwerk• 10 years ago

Justin has wonderful material on this topic. Learned so much from him. And he's amazingly nice to people! Also check his book Jolt.

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

Agreed. I'm going to start getting his book and maybe I'll give a try to his new course.

tedmiston3• 10 years ago

I see a bunch of references to a book with the same title as the course on that page.

The course is out of my price range, but the book sounds interesting. However, it doesn't seem to be available on Amazon or for purchase anywhere on the site. Is the book form still available?

Edit: It also has some great reviews on Goodreads [1].

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27250038-marketing-for-d...

Gustomaximus• 10 years ago

I feel the comments that you need to hire or partner make sense. If the latter you might feel you are giving a chunk of the business away but if you are walking away anyway you're already loosing 100%.

Most importantly you should find a good marketer. Like anyhting there is a buch of snake oil being sold in marketing expertise and ability. I wrote up these points previously for what I've found as a marketer finding/actuating good people;

1) Look for someone that has experience working big and small companies. Big brands will train comms, project management, procedure and how to think at scale. Small brands give the 'getting it done' skills, generalist experience and show they can get technical/dirty hands. Larger brand experience typically looks more impressive but often work has been project management for agencies and doesnt suit hands on efforts or creativity. Likewise if you're business is big enough to run agencies if someone has always been hands on they often struggle as project managers and understanding how to communicate needs in a way that translates well downstream.

2) Dig into exact contributions for past roles. Ask for logic that lead to decisions. Often marketers talk about great campaigns results but really they were a body in a room with little input. Dig for detail and motivations to decisions and you will find out who is who.

3) Look for initiative with intelligence. Many solid looking marketeers repeat what is always done, optimising here and there. That suits some roles and businesses. There's an unrecognised value in the solid citizen employee. But for smaller business looking for exceptional results you need someone who will see the world independently of the current enviroment. This is someone that will deliver results vs turn wheels for the sake of it. Ensure they have this ability to spot entirely new oppurtunity and deliver on it.

4) Experience counts. It's easy to be attracted to enthusuasm but confidence/enthusiasm and ability are often confused. Look for someone that has done things. When looking at people with higher level expereince ensure they can get thier hands dirty. Make sure they have the ability to learn and adapt vs puely strategise.

5) Don't go cheap. I often see startups advertising low paid roles a couple years experience, while they pay for experienced developers. Half the price sounds great but they will bring a fraction of the value.

6) Find someone that can analyse data vs report it. There's a big difference in the 2 and the former is surprisingly rare.

7) Avoid anyone that shows narcissistic tendency or is generally 'me' focused. This personality tends to be bad comms people (especially with social) as they see the world from their POV, not the customers. Also your risking a tough working enviroment. Look for things like how they delivered on a job they felt was wrong or lacked value as well as the usual egocentric viewpoints when they discuss marketing examples.

8) Look for someone that lives marketing beyond thier job. A person that can talk about companies beyond their own and has interest in the wider industry and technologies vs focusing only on thier job.

9) Dont stress about direct inductry experience. Unless there is incredibly niche market knowedge or contacts needed a good marketer will be good regardless of product.

10) Sales and marketing are not the same thing. Know what you need. They dont often come all-in-one.

11) While not an absolute I usually check linkedin contacts to skill endorsements ratio. Typically this ratio is higher for the people I know are good marketers. I wouldn't make my decision by this but is seems one of those soft indicators.

12) When you interview give a 10min exercise before to discuss and cover up real-time actual skills. E.g. show them some relevant to role campaign materials (e.g. landing pages/EDM's) and ask them how they would improve. Ask them what they would do with $50k. Typically I add in some spelling/grammar mistakes to also look for attention to detail as it tends to be a 'you have it or you dont' skill (like initiative) and not something you can train up.

Once onboard;

13) Give marketers product input. They should have their finger on the customer pulse and valuable views on what sell/motivates users. Dont let tech side shut out marketing.

14) Make sure they have a budget. This goes well with the above point. Generally I'd say a 10-20x marketing salary would be a good rule of spend if bringing a permanent marketing role in.

...hope that's useful...

jazoom4• 10 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to write all that. It's great info.

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

Hey. Many thanks for writing this great comment. I'm in that point where I'm still validating the idea while keep building the basis of the product. Once I feel I have a good product that I can monetise, I'd go for your advice of hiring or partner with someone experienced in marketing. Will definitely follow those tips!

edpichler• 10 years ago

It depends on each case. On my case, I send email messages for possible customers, one by one. The conversion is really high.

tedmiston3• 10 years ago

Transparent Startups looks awesome.

One way is to build projects for an audience that you either know or can reach. That might be something local in your city, HN, etc.

Another thing to consider is what your goal is — do you want regular users, paid users, newsletter signups, just feedback, etc?

There's also a regularly recommended book called Traction [1] that you might find useful. One of the authors is the founder of DuckDuckGo.

[1] http://tractionbook.com/

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

Thanks for your comment. I'd love to have regular engaged users - that will keep me motivated to continue with project. Revenue might come later. I've added this book into my reading queue.

NetStrikeForce• 10 years ago

I've found a person that's good at teaching and we're doing weekly classes. It might not make me a marketing guru, but surely will increase my ability to hire good marketing freelancers.

fuqted2• 10 years ago

Everyone knows SPI likely has BS numbers made from very creative accounting. I wouldn't doubt that, that's the case with many of them. I'd be interested to know how much they actually make. I think that this type of thing - going beyond superficial aggregation or testing - would keep your traffic there.

Anyway Nathan Barry, the founder of an email marketing company Convert Kit - a company on your list, says it pretty well: the best way to drive traffic to your products is to first drive traffic to yourself.

https://vimeo.com/95680313 - A talk by Nathan Barry (Check out that Vimeo account for more talks from founders)

Driving traffic to yourself is typically done with content marketing. Here's a podcast from Empire Flippers - a company on your list - interviewing the founder of another company on the list, WP Curve. https://empireflippers.com/wpcurve/ (Note that podcasting and blogging is Empire Flippers' form of content marketing, and a big reason why they're as big as they are)

And here's an in depth guide by Neil Patel https://www.quicksprout.com/the-advanced-guide-to-content-ma... (Quicksprout, which seems to be an umbrella company for niche sites, also looks like it has transparent revenue btw)

In closing, I'll reiterate that it's probably most important that, like Y Combinator itself says, you build something that people want.

You can shoot me an email if you want. I'm a willing wall to bounce ideas off of. ryanacalvo /at/ gmail

rafapaez8• 10 years ago

Hey, thanks for the great info. This is my main focus right, build something that people love. So far the response from the audience about the idea is being great but I really need to grow this audience and spread the word, otherwise my free/social model is not going to work.

Btw, I realised this kind of content marketing is very popular nowadays, for example today I was reading this post (https://beanninjas.com/blog/how-dan-norris-built-a-7-figure-...) which is from a Transparent Startup talking about another one, yeah, interestingly both are featured on TransparentStartups.com

fuqted2• 10 years ago

An interview with Dan is in the second link I gave.

Dan Norris, the Bean Ninjas team and the Empire Flippers guys are all part of a mastermind called the Dynamite Circle - which was created by these guys: http://www.tropicalmba.com/profitable-niche-selection-rip-pi... (Link as an episode on niche selection. They have over 300 podcast episodes).

What is your target market with TSps? Where is the monetization? Why can't you login with google? What are you sending them weekly?

stevekemp• 10 years ago

Notice how in the replies many people said "I built a site .."? One of the ways that you promote your site is by talking about it everywhere, especially on posts like this.

Of course I'm not advocating spamming forums, or message-boards, but if you find any topic or group which is relevant to your (potential) users you do need to mention it.

As a concrete example if you're ever needing easy to update DNS hosting you might enjoy my site too https://dns-api.com/ ;)

kamillarott• 10 years ago

Nice post. I would add that for engineers to become true marketers, if they want to, it does require some non-trivial mindset shifts http://myessayshelp.org/

Ask HN: How to promote side project being a developer with no marketing skills?

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