YCRFS 6: iPad Applications

by pg • 16 years ago

149 107 16 years ago

mikecane3• 16 years ago

>>>We think Apple foresees a future in which the iPad is the default way people do what they now do with computers (and some other new things).

Yes: Web Designers: Wake Up And Smell The Touchscreen Coffee! http://ebooktest.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/web-designers-wake...

quizbiz• 16 years ago

What's the equivalent of a rollover effect for touch?

mikecane3• 16 years ago

Oh that discussion is raging right now among people. It was also brought up under the subject of Flash. I leave that for others to figure out.

wmf• 16 years ago

Maybe the Web doesn't need rollover effects.

infolito• 16 years ago

TouchUpOutside

Essentially, the user touches an interface element, then slides their finger off the element to "cancel" the touch.

For most iPhone UI buttons/elements, it doesn't register a button click unless the the finger touches down on the button then releases up off the same button.

phil2• 16 years ago

Rollover doesn't have much meaning, but the start of a touch is analogous to the :active pseudoclass in CSS.

revorad• 16 years ago

It's rather ironic how much I had to scroll to read that blog post...

jey• 16 years ago

  [O]rdinary people just want something cheap that works.
  And that's how the iPad will seem to them. Many will never
  make a conscious decision to switch. They'll get an iPad as
  well, then find they use their Windows machine less and
  less. When it dies they won't replace it.

Quoted for truth.

ErrantX4• 16 years ago

Indeed, I think many tech people forget they are in the vast minority of computer users.

portman2• 16 years ago

I actually think that lately (viz., reactions to the "Facebook Login" incident) most tech people are forgetting that the vast majority of computer users are not dummies, but intelligent, educated professionals who use a computer as a tool to complete their job.

For example: how many people use Microsoft Excel at least once a week? 100 million people? 250 million? It's certainly a large chunk of the computing public. These are sophisticated users of desktop software, and I can't imagine they'll be putting down their Windows PCs in favor of iPads.

Lately, HN-types have been suggesting that there are two classes of users: the sophisticated software engineer, and the unsophisticated masses. This is both insulting and wrong.

physcab• 16 years ago

This became apparent to me when I checked Google Analytics for the first time and found Internet Explorer was overwhelmingly the default browser for our website.

netcan3• 16 years ago

That is why I find all of the iPad vs laptop/netbook/whatever silly. They are invariably comparing some excellent value, highly functional Amazon best seller to the iPad. That's not what it needs to be compared. Noone is going to be sitting there deciding between an iPadn & an Eee.

The real comparison happens where the real choice happens: at home. There is a nice new ipad on the kitchen table and a 3 year old computer in the other room. The computer has all sorts of crap installed on it, gives off 4 alerts a minute, takes 5 minutes to boot. It's tied to the power point because even thought it's a laptop, the battery died 2 years ago.

That is where the decision will happen.

Groxx2• 16 years ago

Aside from the "cheap" part, though my laptop is dirt-cheap compared to the time I've spent on it, that's what's happened to me since I got my MacBook Pro. I don't miss my Windows box... which is kinda strange, as I grew up on Windows.

jasonlbaptiste3• 16 years ago

Steve Jobs wants the computer to be the equivalent of a toaster... which I think is absolutely awesome for "normal folks". The computer is supposed to solve problems, not create them. That's why I'm bullish on the iPad. Some type of black swan event is likely to occur in personal computing. I don't know if the iPad is "the event" or just a major accelerant, but people are clearly waking up to the fact that they don't need all this complex shit.

I'm not worried about guys like us. There will always be machines for us (powerful, complex, etc.). Why? Because if for some magical reason there wasn't all of a sudden, we're the type that would just make one.

andrewtj• 16 years ago

I don't think appliance computing institutes a disconnect between what hackers and non-hackers compute on. I actually think the opposite is true but that the tools aren't here just yet to support that conjecture.

jasonlbaptiste3• 16 years ago

Very true. I'm sure there will be some power apps made for the iPad. It's definitely doable for us to work on the "watered down" machines, but I think the problem lies in the fact that "normals" have been working on the difficult machines. We can create what we want. The "normals" cannot. The "normals" need someone to champion them, kind of like a PC Messiah who will save them from the shitshow that is Windows and difficult computing.

pg4• 16 years ago

All you really need is a scary "programmer mode" on the iPad that lets you be root. Does anyone have any guess as to whether Apple will allow that? Presumably if you could be root you'd be able to get around whatever horrible drm they're planning for iPad as paywall on the client. Does that mean they'd never allow it?

Timothee• 16 years ago

  There will always be machines for us

If anything to be able to develop these or for these simple machines.

chrischen6• 16 years ago

From what I'm getting, it seems the current and future generations of young people are adapting to computers, not shying away. Sure people who grew up before PCs may love this type of stuff (because it's more intuitive to them), but they'll eventually all pass away. Intuition is based on what we know and are used to, and the current generation is growing up on PCs. That's why I'm wary that dumbing down computer for "normal folks" is the future.

If the iPad replaces traditional computers, it will only be because using a touchscreen and virtual keyboard is more practical than a mouse and a physical keyboard.

Also as a tradeoff to simplifying the experience, the experience is also weakened. And as users become more savvy, they'll want to try out new stuff. These things may not be compatible with the iPad platform because of its closed nature. There are eventually going to be some scenarios where some cool new thing only works on open platforms like OS X or Windows (or linux).

Also I'd like to add that one of most popular reasons I hear from friends who don't like mac is that it dumbs down the experience. That it's for people who don't know how to use computers (like their parents). I actually had this same faulty preconceived notion until I found out programmers usually preferred os x (and switched).

dasil003• 16 years ago

There are two kinds of people. Those who like to fiddle around with technology per se, and those who use it as a means to an end. Just because most of your friends are in the former category doesn't mean most young people are.

Also as a tradeoff to simplifying the experience, the experience is also weakened.

This is a classic geek fallacy. This is the reason smart phones were so godawfully unusable before the iPhone came out. Ask any designer—removing things can dramatically improve a user experience because it decreases the cognitive load.

There are eventually going to be some scenarios where some cool new thing only works on open platforms like OS X or Windows (or linux).

Definitely. I'm not quite ready to jump on the iPad world-domination bandwagon just yet. But keep in mind that many cool new things will only work on the iPad as well, and it remains to be seen how locked down the iPad will remain, so this isn't a definitive argument by a long shot.

rimantas3• 16 years ago

  If the iPad replaces traditional computers

Like TV replaced radio and movies, like automobiles replaced bicycles, etc. Why would iPad replace anything? It just makes it more comfortable to me browse the web or read the book on a couch. When I am in mood for some programming I will put it aside and sit down in front of my desktop or grab my notebook. The iPad replaces traditional computers no more than spoon replaces fork.

jamesbritt• 16 years ago

" ... but people are clearly waking up to the fact that they don't need all this complex shit."

Telephones used to be complex, in that they needed many people to complete calls, then they got bone simple.

But then they got complex in a different way. I don't think you can buy a phone today that just gives you a dial tone and basic DTMF buttons.

Mobile phones are worse (so to speak). But as best can see there are increasing numbers of people using their mobile as their only phone.

There's a market for feature-less devices (check out Reader's Digest for their ads for phones and such; basic behavior and a few Big Button options for the AARP crowd).

But it seems there's a larger market for at least all sorts of complexity.

lr• 16 years ago

I completely agree with Paul and the others at Ycombinator. Although my writeup was specifically about control systems, my point is that this device is not about eBook reading, so comparing it to the Kindle is a waste of time.

My writeup can be found here: http://lr.posterous.com/the-ipad-its-about-control-systems-n...

nitrogen• 16 years ago

My pending YC application is in this market space. The iPad and similar devices will really change automation.

cubicle67• 16 years ago

That's an excellent article. I've just submitted it because I think it's worthy of comment

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1160975

ivankirigin• 16 years ago

Someone please make a paper-killer application. I love working with pen & ink because there are no distractions and the form factor is awesome for free thinking. I want those thoughts to get permanence. I'd love to be able to jump into a mini-drawing program as well.

For app makers, I could see the tablet as an extremely fast prototyping tool. You could draw up a mockup, add some hooks for click through transitions, maybe some data entry. I could make a full application mock in 10 minutes. I know, I've done it before on paper, but with clumsy transitions (i.e. now look over at this other picture).

Also, I've been colaboratively drawing with my 3 year old a lot. We just draw different parts of a big sheet. I'd love to do this on the go. In fact, I think this is a whole application class that is growing on the iphone: kids apps. The difference with the iPad is that they can be collaborative. The education apps will be awesome.

voidmain• 16 years ago

I think the idea of one company controlling what people may do with computers is pretty horrible. I hope this doesn't happen, and would rather develop or invest in something that could make the iPad fail than something complementary to it.

troystribling2• 16 years ago

One company, Microsoft, currently controls how most people use their computers. As mentioned in the RFS the iPad is likely a challenge to this near monopoly.

Also, I think more technical use cases where a larger touch device can be a control surface could be important as well. A few obvious applications are MIDI controllers, video application controllers and others applications where complex mechanical controllers are used.

orangecat2• 16 years ago

One company, Microsoft, currently controls how most people use their computers.

No, they don't. Microsoft got raked over the coals in both the courts and public opinion for making it somewhat more inconvenient to use third party browsers and media players. Under Apple's policies third party browsers and media players are entirely prohibited, and that's just a side effect of their complete control. If Microsoft had that kind of power 20 years ago, the web wouldn't exist. Likewise if the iPad and similar devices take over, Apple will be in excellent position to block the next major innovations that might interfere with their established business models.

tensor• 16 years ago

I agree with this, and would like to expand on it a bit. For me personally, I do not mind that the iPad is "simple" or even single tasking. The problem is that the software that is run on it is controlled. Worse, it is controlled by a company who has already demonstrated that they are happy to deny applications based on money interests or the opinions of their primarily US market.

Last year they decided joke political apps were "not worth offending their user base" for and banned them. This year they ban all applications related to sexuality for the same reason. Web browsers and email clients are banned for money interests. It goes without saying that apps like itunes are banned.

What is next? Apps related to evolution and science? Any 3rd party apps related to music? Who knows. Maybe nothing, maybe all those things.

This sets a FAR more dangerous precedent than Microsoft's monopoly on the OS market. And as this article correctly points out, very few people outside of IT will care. For them it will be "why isn't there app X, guess IT people are just boring/uncreative/didn't think of it, oh well."

This level of control is enough for me to buy an alternative product, even if it may not be quite as good.

rimantas3• 16 years ago

  What is next? Apps related to evolution and science?
  Any 3rd party apps related to music? Who knows. Maybe
  nothing, maybe all those things.

There is a name for that: FUD. How do you know, maybe Apple will release cure for cancer as an app. Will they be evil then too?

zhyder• 16 years ago

+1. At the risk of sounding too dramatic, it feels pretty evil to help Apple just because there are some profits to be made in apps; feels like helping a tyrannical dictatorship take over the world. I'd rather help some other simplified -but open- platform succeed.

axod• 16 years ago

I agree, and I'm much more excited by Chrome OS. I can't see why anyone would choose an iPad over a laptop/netbook running ChromeOS.

And I highly doubt the iPad will be any more successful than the MacBook air. It's a small niche of users.

danw• 16 years ago

One particularly interesting subproblem is how to introduce iPads into big companies.

There's already an app for this, keynote. The iPad is perfect for sales presentations hooked up to a projector or by passing the tablet around. You can edit on the go and email the deck. It's easy to slip from presentation to app demo.

The only thing missing is easy wireless printing from the iPad or iPhone. Opportunity here?

briansmith• 16 years ago

You could just use a Lenovo X-series tablet that's been around for years, runs PowerPoint and every other Windows program, has a fold-out full-sized keyboard, and already connects to existing projectors and printers without dongles.

metachor• 16 years ago

Lenovo X-series tablet - Starting model price: $1879.00 (currently on sale for $1399.00).

Apple iPad - Starting model price: $499.00.

I think it does not matter whether the Lenovo tablet is more fully featured. People will buy the iPad without a second thought, because it is affordable, and then make it work for this purpose.

Additionally, and I hate to admit this, but the iPad will probably have greater fashion value to be seen with in a boardroom than the Lenovo tablet.

mbrubeck2• 16 years ago

I want a "print to iPad" printer driver.

Just use the "Print" command in any application - Word, OpenOffice, LyX, Dia, PageMaker, whatever - and choose "my iPad" from the list of printers. Then the document is wirelessly synced to an iPad app with a simple browsing interface. Basically like Instapaper, but it could work really well with complex graphical documents.

Feel free to steal this idea. :)

bigwill• 16 years ago

"Save as PDF..." + Dropbox + Dropbox for iPhone/iPad and you're done :)

mbrubeck2• 16 years ago

Yup, and that works okay for me, but I think "print to iPad" would be appealingly simple not just for me but for lots of less-savvy users. "Print to Kindle DX" (or other large-screen e-ink reader) would be good too.

snom3703• 16 years ago

Actually, this is a really brilliant idea. Combine it with push notifications and you have a service that could actually be dead simple and replace a lot of the common print jobs at my work.

dejb• 16 years ago

> One particularly interesting subproblem is how to introduce iPads into big companies. This will probably have to be done by stealth initially, as happened with microcomputers. They'll have to be introduced as something individuals use, and which doesn't really count as a computer and thus can't be vetoed by the IT department.

It almost sounds like pg is trying to encourage us all to become iPad evangelists. It kind of feels a bit like a paid promotion to me. I'd understand the attitude if it was some kind of non-commercial product or an open standard. But suggesting that we shill this locked down, DRM infested thing is not what I would expect.

subbu• 16 years ago

What are the things iPad might need?

andrewljohnson2• 16 years ago

We're thinking about building an iPad app, but I am still just a little bit concerned it won't be nearly as big as the iPhone. It's a big risk for us to take as a three-person start-up.

We currently develop a GPS/tracking/mapping app for the iPhone, and a bunch of our users have emailed us to ask us what our plans for the iPad are. The obvious application would be a trip planning app - something where you could trace out trails and waypoints on the iPad, and then load that data into your iPhone or other GPS unit out in the field. You could even take the iPad with you I guess, considering how light and slim it is.

We're still iffy on doing something like this, but a big part of me wants to, particularly since I'd use the app for my own trips, and it would be a good excuse to buy an iPad :)

I guess we'll see. We also see opportunities in boating and aviation, and we're talking to a boating maps company about a deal that might lead to an iPad app as well.

randomtask• 16 years ago

What do your users hope are your plans for the iPad?

andrewljohnson2• 16 years ago

Some have suggested the trip-planning app.

wmblaettler• 16 years ago

Might want to check out waterproofing options and recommend good ones to your users: http://www.amazon.com/TrendyDigital-WaterGuard-Waterproof-Ap...

jasongullickson• 16 years ago

I keep hearing that the iPad isn't for coders, but I'm designing a development tool for it anyhow.

MaysonL• 16 years ago

Me too, and undoubtedly dozens of others.

mattmaroon2• 16 years ago

I'd like to see hardware for it. A docking port that made it accept a real keyboard might make me want to buy one. A virtual keyboard's fine for browsing Facebook, but I couldn't do any real work on one without wanting to kill myself. The ability to type while looking at the screen with nearly flawless precision is just too good to give up.

rms• 16 years ago

Apple sells a keyboard dock: http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/

cmelbye• 16 years ago

http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/keyboard_dock_1_20...

glhaynes• 16 years ago

You can also use Bluetooth keyboards.

dangrover• 16 years ago

I've got an iPhone sheet music reader coming out next week: http://www.wonderwarp.com/etude

I'm rushing to get the iPad version ready too. Don't think I'll apply to YC though since they hate single founders.

phlee• 16 years ago

We've applied to YC with a music composition application as opposed to a music reader. We think the iPad is ideal for this domain since the much larger screen will allow users to take advantage of interfaces like a virtual keyboard or guitar that you can't really fit in an iPhone's screen.

Best of luck on Etude - it looks great.

geeko3• 16 years ago

I hope the iPad will also turn into a music instrument. Something in the direction of the reactable [1].

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgy1S8qymx0

buster• 16 years ago

Haha, i love how everyone is like "uhm, yeah, it will change our future, appple is so genius, but i don't know why and how, but somehow it must be true because i say so".

Translates to: Nobody knows, there is no evidence, people are wishing for the ipad to become the computing device of the future, but dont know how that new computing future could be different from tomorrow.

But, since apple did a great marketing job, as always, you are not alone. There are hell of a lot of people who will buy the ipad, but don't exactly know why. I know a lot of people that want an ipad, but when i ask them what would be so great about it, what would they do with it, they don't really know, they just think it's awesome. Which in my oppinion, is a result of good marketing (and neat design). It looks neat, the whole world is talking about it, apple is cool, so i need one too!

This discussion is somehow the same, but discussed by geeks: It's cool, it's easy to use, those dumb other 99% of computer users will need this, but i don't know why. :)

freshfunk• 16 years ago

Ok. What's your point? Is someone supposed to know?

I think people didn't really have any idea how the iPhone would really have an impact. At best people said, "Now I don't need to carry a phone and an iPod." That's probably one of the least touted feature today because it is simply taken for granted.

The thing with iPhone is that it really removed any threshold to mobile applications. Sure, I could've probably done everything on my laptop that I do on my iPhone. But who wants to bust out their laptop every 5 minutes to check Facebook, find directions and beam someone money using PayPal? Oh yeah.. you'd also have the barrier of actually having connectivity no matter where you are.

I will say that there will be a similar evolution with the iPad. Certain applications lends themselves better to a touch interface with a lightweight form factor. These applications need more screen real estate than an iPhone but less power than a laptop. The most obvious? A book reader.

I can see any sort of designer app being huge: web page designing, graphic designing, photo editing. Personally I would love a personal entertainment console. In a perfect world, I'd have a smooth, user friendly and rich touch interface to pick a movie to stream from Netflix and have it start playing automatically through my Apple TV.

geeko3• 16 years ago

It's easy to dismiss things. It's much harder to try to imagine the possibilities and build things.

Reminds me of _why's quote:

"when you don't create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. your tastes only narrow & exclude people. so create."

walkon• 16 years ago

Software pros and cons aside, in 10-20 years devices with UIs almost exclusively controlled through touch on their primary display are going to appear quite comical. The iPad will encourage horrible ergonomics for extended periods of time which may cause RSS and CTS. Also, I am guessing the iPad will have the highest percentage of drops (physical falling) per unit for devices of similar dimensions (e.g. netbooks).

Seriously, how is controlling a semi-portable device by touching its primary display a good idea for general computing tasks? When considering angles, line of sight, and ergonomics, this product makes little sense to me, except in usages that require sparse interaction.

dkasper• 16 years ago

What general computing tasks are you referring to? Most people's daily computing tasks involve web browsing and email or social networking, things the iPhone does and presumably iPad will do quite well.

Also what is wrong with touch displays? 10-20 years is a very long time in terms of computers! What do you see as the future of UIs? To me, touch is more intuitive/easier than using a mouse for most things. The interaction you can get with multitouch pinch/pull, swipe, etc allow for rich new possibilities in UI design.

mikecane3• 16 years ago

>>>Software pros and cons aside, in 10-20 years devices with UIs almost exclusively controlled through touch on their primary display are going to appear quite comical.

Like all these touchscreen cash registers that have been out there for 10-20 years already? Sure, many of them still have bubble/chiclet overlays, but they're still touch. And all of the input machines for the NY State Lottery have dropped the keyboard and gone with touchscreen.

For touch to be effective and limit the possibility of RSI, the screen should be on a gentle slope, not vertical as our current monitors.

dpezely• 16 years ago

It may be worth noting that developers don't necessarily need official apps for everything. That is, github becomes an implicit app store because we can build locally and push to our own devices.

I suspect this to be the only means by which Emacs will become available on iPhoneOS, for instance. Considering the intended user base, that's acceptable as a starting place.

(To preempt certain class of questions: Use the "happy hacker"/"das keyboard" concept by implementing an unmarked keyboard underneath a partially transparent background, so you maximize text on screen while also accommodating typing without external keyboard. For Emacs in particular, just hit C-l or otherwise scroll when cursor lands beneath fingers. That's one step closer to YCRFS5...)

snom3703• 16 years ago

I was really surprised when I saw my mother using Safari on her iPhone (which we gave her for christmas just to have a "simple" phone and iPod, nothing more). It's not like she can't use a PC, but she rarely does so.

This made me think that an iPad, or a similar super simple tablet is the right product for her. Appliance is the way to go.

If my parents TV set took 5 minutes to boot up and frequently asked to download and install the latest security updates before letting them watch TV, maybe they would do it less often. :)

orangecat2• 16 years ago

If my parents TV set took 5 minutes to boot up

I hear this a lot, and am always perplexed. Why is anybody actually shutting down their computers these days? I know Windows didn't sleep reliably many years ago, but don't they have that working now?

snom3703• 16 years ago

People who do the recommended security updates shut down their computers quite often. And yes, sleep reliability varies a lot with the hardware (unfortunately).

dang• 3 years ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20100413054859/http://ycombinato...

YCRFS 6: iPad Applications

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