Ask HN: Australian freelancers, how're you doing?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11008574

by panjaro • 10 years ago

34 44 10 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Interested to know the freelancing scenario in Australia, mainly in Melbourne. I'm planning to leave a full time office job to do freelancing. Not sure how to go about finding clients and if it's possible to actually do it full time.

joshschreuder3• 10 years ago

I don't have anything to offer (sorry!), but I am curious on this too. It's something I'd like to try out one day.

imron3• 10 years ago

It's a great thing to try, just make sure you have enough runway when you start.

First you need to start tracking your expenses - not just roughly, but keep a spreadsheet (or use an app) that keeps track of all your daily/weekly/monthly expenses and use it religiously for at least 6 months (preferably 12, so as to account for both winter/summer spending).

Once you start to get an accurate picture of your spending habits you can then figure out how much you'll need to save in order to have a decent runway after quitting your job. By tracking your expenses accurately, you'll probably also find out all the ridiculous ways you spend money and figure out ways to cut down on frivolous spending. $4 here and $3 there doesn't seem much, but accumulated daily over the course of a year it can total in to over a thousand dollars.

Then you can look at how much money you currently have saved, how much you are currently able to save each month and from there figure out how many months you need to work before you have enough savings to have an X-month runway.

When doing this, always be pessimistic about your expenses (round up rather than down, assume higher prices rather than lower prices etc) and also allow yourself an emergency buffer on top of everything.

When I left my office job, I had saved up enough to give myself a runway of 1 year and was then able to work on a mix of my own projects and freelance work without too much worry about running out of funds.

The other thing I would advise when doing freelance/contract work is to bill hourly rather than on a project-by-project basis.

Even if you are in the position where you can accurately estimate (to the hour) the time required to complete a task (e.g. you are doing boring and repetitive work you have already done a hundred times before), your clients will respect your time much more when they have to pay for it and this will help you avoid all manner of rubbish that you don't want to have to deal with.

pm• 10 years ago

I can't complain. Admittedly, I think it's a little thin on the ground at the moment (I'm in Adelaide). What's your focus?

panjaro7• 10 years ago

.NET, MS SQL, mostly web development - backend, not getting much time from full time work to learn and update skills, so hoping freelancing will provide that opportunity

PhilWright2• 10 years ago

I work full time in Melbourne. There are casual/contract positions (you can find both terms used in the adverts) available but they are just like being a regular employee in that you report to a boss and work in the office just like everyone else at the company. They are for a fixed duration but often get extended if it works out well. The pay is 20% higher than the same full time position to compensate for no paid vacation and no paid sick leave. You can search www.seek.com.au for jobs in Melbourne and you will see the fixed duration ones are advertised as casual/contract. There is little benefit over being a regular full timer unless you want to keep switching for variety.

If you want to be a one man business and have clients then that is a different ball game. You need to get clients the same way any small business does. Ask around your network of contacts, have a website advertising your services, cold call potential customers etc.

peteretep• 10 years ago

That's interesting, the contract market in London (in the same sense you're describing) tends to offer a 100% premium on permanenet staff remuneration.

PhilWright2• 10 years ago

Exactly right. I was a contractor in the UK from 1997-2001 and I used to get double the full time rate. Then the dot com boom busted and the market for contracting collapsed for a while. When I emigrated to OZ I hoped to find the same kind of market but it doesn't really exist in the same way.

solresol2• 10 years ago

I've been freelancing since 1999, but I tend to do very tiny projects (one to two weeks). Last year I took a three month contract for a bit of a change. Based on how things have gone in January, this year is looking better than previous years, but I'd like to think that's because I've got my act together better.

Finding clients is always tough. I find I need to be a serious expert in two or three things and then attach myself to companies that sell those things but don't have a lot of experience in them. It's a model that works well for them and for me.

Remember that whatever it is you don't like about your full-time job now, at least you are mostly doing what you like. As a freelancer, you will now be spending a large portion of your time on sales and marketing, which you probably have little experience or aptitude for if you are a techie.

jacques_chester2• 10 years ago

I did it for a while.

You'll learn what everyone else learns: yes, the money is great. But it has to be, because you don't know when there will be money.

Now I work for Pivotal Labs in NYC. I get to see a lot of different projects and someone else worries about how to find them.

If you're just bored, then as an Australian you have a golden ticket. The E3 visa lets you work in the USA with very little fuss. The market here for engineers is nuts. Like being a tradie in Perth circa 2010.

Obligatory: email me if you want me to refer you into our recruiters.

marcoalfonso• 10 years ago

Hi, that sounds encouraging for aussies. Are you working remotely or in NYC? Would like to hear of Pivotal.

jacques_chester2• 10 years ago

I live and work in NYC. There are about 10 Australians in this office. Pivotal has been ahead of the curve in hiring through the E3 visa.

Have a look at the ad I posted today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11012160

apapli2• 10 years ago

If you're looking to go freelancing but aren't yet ready for the jump, perhaps try asking your employer if you can go part time so you can slowly build up your client base, rather than suddenly hitting $0 income from day one.

I'm in melbourne and the market seems pretty healthy, however you need to be fairly specialised. Anything generic (web sites, online stores etc) is totally saturated, so it's a race to the bottom on hourly rates with Upwork if you cannot differentiate. I agree with the comments below - get specialised in something and then leverage those vendors to build your customer base.

As an aside - I'm on the other side of the equation compared with many of the replies below. I'm a sales & marketing person first up, and a developer by necessity secondly (PHP & RoR). I have a micro-business on the side which is gaining more traction than I would like, and think I will need some folk to help with delivery in the next 2-3 months.

So, if you have some PHP experience and know how to hit APIs with JSON and XML then perhaps shoot me an email we can keep in touch, as I might be able to find you a day a week in a couple of months time if you do totally go "cold turkey" and resign.

panjaro7• 10 years ago

My Major Skills are .NET, MS SQL, mainly backend with APIs - comfortable with JSON and XML - I'll certainly shoot you an email once I'm ready. Thanks a lot for some hope.

Cheers !

apapli2• 10 years ago

Cool. .NET would be good. I just hadn't taught myself that, but I'll need those skills....

Look forward to hearing from you

jms• 10 years ago

I'm doing OK :).

I've got one large client who I basically subcontract for, then a handful of other clients I work on a less regular basis. About a 50/50 split between the large client and the rest.

I earn less than when I was working full time, but love the freedom to spend my time as I like, and to have the time to work on my own startup projects. I'd earn more if I took the freelancing more seriously and made an effort at sales and marketing, but as it is I'm thinking of scaling back to concentrate on my own projects more.

Retainers or any other regular monthly income are gold.

jondubois• 10 years ago

I think taking 6-12 months on-site contracts is the best approach. The contract environment is pretty good in Sydney and Melbourne.

Contract work pays very well, you get to invoice a full 40 hours each week, you meet lots of smart/cunning people, you learn stuff, you build connections with big companies (not small startups who might go bankrupt in a year or two). Also, I find that 6 months is optimal for learning and self-improvement (useful if you want to become a manager down the line).

On top of all this, it is often less stressful than working for small clients who don't have much money and have tight deadlines.

The main issue is that the barrier to entry is higher - They're not just going to hire anyone. For the rates they're paying, they want people who have experience/achievements under their belt. Open source work is a good way to get your foot in the door.

holografix• 10 years ago

Any personal experiences around Python/Django or Python/Datascience or CRM type contracting work? I'd be keen to know!

mceoin• 10 years ago

Hey Panjaro,

Aussie who runs a dev shop in SF here. Speaking directly about "how to go about finding clients", here's some things to think about when starting out:

* Portfolio: Everyone is going to ask you for your portfolio, so have that organized before you start doing outreach as this will increase your success rate when doing outbound "marketing". You'll be including this in all first touch correspondence.

* Activate Your Network: Most of the freelancers I speak to find work within their network. It's a nice inbound flow, although a little unpredictable, but the key here is to make sure that everyone who knows you can code (I'm assuming you're a programmer here) knows you're available for work. When you first start, make sure to go out of your way to message your friends, start a conversation, and make sure they know you're in the marketplace. It can be strange marketing to your friends, but getting over that feeling will increase your work pipeline.

* Positioning: We have found that while we can do a whole bunch of stuff (Ruby, Rails, Node, Python, Angular, React, Backbone, etc, etc.), this doesn't position ourself as the first point of call when a friend-of-a-friend is asking for freelancers. More effective for us is to position as specialists in a certain skill (React/Node) so that way we're the go-to for whenever someone is asking for around that skill set. (Note: I have anecdotal evidence to support this, but others may have a different experience)

* Outbound: While effectively all our pipeline is inbound now, in the early days I emailed effectively every design and dev shop in the bay and this generated some contracts. Effort to reward ratio was quite high. Just make sure you have your portfolio included in the email to minimize the back-and-forth. If you have boxes of business cards lying around, put them to work!

Overall, I have found consulting to be a well-paid, mostly unfulfilling line of employment that allows our team to maximize their time not working.

Good luck!

panjaro7• 10 years ago

Very good points, thanks for taking time to write this. Always good to know an Aussie making progress overseas ! Cheers !

danieltrembath2• 10 years ago

I've been freelancing in Melbourne almost full time since 2002.

As others have said, the first year or two is very tough and I nearly went bankrupt. But once you get past that, assuming your work is good, you'll find enough repeat customers to keep you comfortable.

If you can get some kind of cushy project (say some work from your previous employer) to help transition then that's a big win.

I would be earning significantly more in a traditional position, but I live a good life. If I were more business savvy maybe I would be making more than a normal job.

The quality of life is exceptional. Being your own boss, being in control of your daily schedule, being able to nip out any time to solve life stuff, that's all a huge win. I'm 15 years in and very happy, have a strong customer base, and looking at kids soon it will let me be a stay at home dad.

If you're ever over Hawthorn way I'd be happy to have a coffee with you and discuss.

panjaro7• 10 years ago

Very encouraging !

I'm in Ivanhoe. Coffee would be great for a technical chat !

So I guess you're a Hawks supporter ?

danieltrembath2• 10 years ago

Ha. Nah I'm not from here originally.

If you want to say hi danielt @ room52 net

If you're not already involved in the weekly programming night scene (checkout what's available on meetup and lanyard) then that's a great way to meet other developers and a lot of other freelancers.

flashman• 10 years ago

Just on the SAHD point: make sure you can get blocks of guaranteed uninterrupted working time. My experience of working at home is that it's very, very difficult to achieve anything when switching between Dad and Worker roles, and kids don't understand that at all.

imron3• 10 years ago

This is so true!

CyberFonic3• 10 years ago

On the SAHD score: even more dangerous are stay at home mothers who might hit on you for some company. Getting roped into various kindy / school related activities, etc.

Unless you can manage with very little sleep, your productivity is in dire danger from disruptions.

pictureperfect2• 10 years ago

I've found work on the monthly 'Who's Hiring' posts on HN, and from reading articles posted here by various companies that then had 'we're hiring' links at the bottom.

Thanks to the low Aussie dollar, and having clients in the US, I currently work half the hours and get double the pay I was getting in a full-time development position in Melb.

My advice is to try and find remote work from the US rather than locally. It's a bit more work, and it you might need to spend some effort convincing the company you're worth hiring, but if you have the skills it's not too difficult.

The benefit is that you'll get a much higher rate.

The time differences work out well too if your clients are on the US west-coast (e.g. Silicon Valley). There's an overlap of a few hours in the Melbourne morning with the Californian afternoon. This means I can speak with clients in the morning to provide them with an overview and an update, as well as get feedback and direction on tasks for the day, then I work while they're asleep and send status reports/updates at the end of the day. Then while I'm sleeping, they check out my work and provide any feedback on that, and on next tasks, which is then ready for me first thing in the morning, and so the process repeats.

You do have the worry about finding clients, but if you are reliable and do good work then you can start to build up a regular client base.

You'll also want to have a good Internet connection for video calls and screen sharing. If you're 3 zones away from an exchange, and/or have a connection that drops out in the rain it'll make connecting with customers much more difficult.

joshschreuder3• 10 years ago

How does the taxation work if you're earning foreign money? Do you get income taxed in the US and Australia or just Australia? Sorry for the noobish question, but I am curious.

kondro• 10 years ago

I am not a tax accountant but…

if you're an Australian resident living in Australia, you only get taxed in Australia.

You will need to have an ABN and you may need to be registered to charge GST and do a BAS on a regularly basis if you're earning more than $75k/year however, you don't have to charge GST on income from overseas as far as I am aware.

pictureperfect2• 10 years ago

Australia and the US have tax agreements to avoid double taxation.

So, I have a Pty Ltd company, of which I am the sole director/employee (you can start one of these for a few hundred AUD, and it can all be done online).

For each US client, I fill out and sign a W-8BEN-E form (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8bene.pdf) which means I don't need a US SSN and the client does not need to withhold any tax from my payments.

Each month, I then bill my US clients for hours worked, which they pay in USD via a foreign exchange broker (I use OFX), which then converts the USD to AUD and deposits it in my company's Australian bank account (this works out much better than an international bank transfer as the exchange rates offered by the broker are far better, and can result in a difference of a few hundred AUD a month).

This AUD gets lodged as income for the company.

Although the company is registered for GST, because the work is for overseas clients, I don't need to charge or collect GST from them.

I then pay myself a salary in AUD, plus the appropriate amount of super. The company deducts the appropriate amount of Australian PAYG tax based on that salary, which is sent to the ATO once a quarter.

The company is then taxed on any profit it makes - but that's typically low/none, because the salary paid to me is an expense for the business, and I can control the amount I get paid so I make sure that income - expenses = 0.

rrrhys2• 10 years ago

I'm in (outer, outer) Sydney, have been freelancing FT for 8 months, and find it's 75% sales and 25% 'work'.

I'm thinking about entering the job market again just so I can get away from being a sales person and get back to 'working'.

To offer some legitimate advice, I'd say if you haven't spent much of your career learning sales and networking, get started a year or two before you make the jump.

panjaro7• 10 years ago

Where about in (outer, outer) Sydney ?

So you mean its difficult to find projects?

rrrhys2• 10 years ago

Southern Highlands.

The projects are easy enough to come by - freelancing means a disproportionate amount of my time ends up on boilerplate tasks that are both important to clients and difficult to charge for.

On-site meetings, catchups, what-if conversations can fill up a good chunk of the week. As the 'do-er' in my previous roles, I find this part of freelancing exhausting.

dos4gw2• 10 years ago

I've just made the leap myself, leaving my agency job on Feb 10th to start my own consulting and contracting company. I'm a UX designer specialising in product design and interaction design for web apps and mobile. I've worked in UX for 12 years, consulting, agency, startups and enterprise - always wanted to run my own shop, and I'm finally making it happen. Woohoo!

I found a startup client who I have a small monthly retainer with, and who I'm doing some short (1 week-ish) contracts for on an ad-hoc basis. The money is good for the work involved, and the business gets to pay probably about half the usual cash for a senior UX brain that retains context around their business. It's win-win at the moment. I'm working hard to make sure I provide value for them because I know that I'm new to this game.

Finding clients so far has been all about activating my network. I haven't been able to do outwardly facing marketing stuff while still technically working at the agency, so once Feb 10 rolls around, I'm kicking that off.

Also, I saw in the comments that you're in Ivanhoe - I'm in Heidelberg Heights! We'll have to catch up for a beer some time to shoot the shit. ^_^

panjaro7• 10 years ago

Ahh Heidelberg, We should definitely catch-up for a beer or two.

dos4gw2• 10 years ago

Hit me if you want to connect, hugo@25th.co !

Rodeoclash2• 10 years ago

I have a small side project, http://cavalryfreelancers.com/, which is a newsletter going out to a few agencies and startups around Melbourne. Feel free to ping me through the site with your details if you want to get added.

Rodeoclash2• 10 years ago

Sorry, should mention, this is only in Melbourne.

drethemadrapper• 10 years ago

@Danieltrembath: Sounds like you work (@leisure) with the Hackerspace in Hawthorn. I used to come there before I moved to Perth.

@All: Perth is quite dull for IT jobs. I only get calls from Melbourne/Sydney, most notably from the Progressive People recruiter. I am desperately looking for an opportunity in AU. I am happy to test waters in the other states. Fortunately, I am an OSS guy (anti-MS). I do a lot of web engineering works - browser extension dev., JS-based app/SPAs, OTT services (Telecom over the web) and so on.

CyberFonic3• 10 years ago

I have worked in both Sydney and Melbourne. The most lucrative gigs were through agencies or working as a sub-contractor to vendors / systems integrators. Of course, you need to have some specific mad skillz to get the best gigs.

Freelancing requires sales, marketing and bookkeeping effort (sometimes that's like 30% of the time) You need to consider that some clients are slow to pay or even balk at paying. Typical gambit is that they pay as you go along, then suddenly they start nit picking and holding back payments. Having contracts, etc is often met with "I didn't understand what you meant! I thought it was ..." Chasing payments and taking action through small claims court takes a toll in both time and emotionally. That is, more lost income.

The other trap is that if you need to borrow money, e.g. for buying a house, the banks need far more documentation than for full-time employees and even then will often charge a premium on the interest rate. They call it "non-conforming" loans. If you are planning to borrow money, then stay in a full-time job until you secure the loan and then make the jump. But of course, having to meet repayments is a further source of stress.

As many other HNers point out, in addition to technical chops, you need some measure of confidence in your sales, marketing and negotiating skills.

panjaro7• 10 years ago

Wow, wasn't thinking about that part. Freelancing does comes with a cost.

Ask HN: Australian freelancers, how're you doing?

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