The Trouble with the TPP, Day 5: Rights Holders “Shall” vs. Users “May”

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2016/01/the-trouble-with-the-tpp-day-5-rights-holders-shall-vs-users-may/

by walterbell • 11 years ago

195 32 11 years ago

TPP, TTIP and the others are just and plainly the fairgrounds of the big corporations. They are those that shape the rules -- and the result is a global eroding of democracies and of peoples rights.

They are bad for environments, for health and many things that are second to the one thing that counts in this game: profits.

narrator• 11 years ago

I think profit is part of it, but I think that people running multinational corporations with more money than they could spend on themselves for the rest of their lives if they tried would have interest in shaping law indirectly via the supranational tribunals that are part of these trade agreements.

There are other reasons besides money that people get into politics and this would allow corporate owners to directly manipulate politics for monetary and non-monetary reasons without having to do the whole lobbying and/or running for election thing.

I think that profit is a cop-out when it comes to understanding political motivations. Ideological motivations are real and not merely a cover for monetary profit seeking behavior. There's this assumed idea that we live in a post-ideological era and that all decisions are pragmatic or at worst, motivated by profit seeking. I think ideology is still there, but in our dumbed down world it's never explicitly mentioned as a motivation for anything except as a vague throwaway line (e.g "Let's Make America Great Again!").

carapat_virulat• 11 years ago

Everybody is eating from the trashcan all the time [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18qD9hmU9xg

exo762• 11 years ago

Sure, convictions do exist. Problem is - they are not representative of general population. Money are working really hard to make sure people with proper convictions land at proper positions. Again and again we are reminded of the fact that USA is plutocracy.

pbhjpbhj• 11 years ago

So if the controllers of the corporations aren't seeking even more immense income disparity can you say what motivations you think they do have specifically.

Which laws do they want to force and why?

Profit motive may be a cop-out but it's based on the current facts, corporation rulers have manipulated law and made more profits and then sought to do the same again and again.

PavlovsCat• 11 years ago

There's this assumed idea that we live in a post-ideological era and that all decisions are pragmatic or at worst, motivated by profit seeking.

I think at worst they are motivated by narcissistic personality disorder and other defects. People who have more money than they could ever use and still seek more don't always do that because they have a rational goal in mind, or filling a real need (other than feeding the monkeys on the back which are these disorders). Sometimes they're simply FUBAR and lack boundaries which can at this point only be enforced from outside of them.

tzs2• 11 years ago

There hasn't been a lot of polling on this that I've seen, but as of the middle of last year TPP was seen as a good thing by the majority of the general population in all TPP countries except the US and Malaysia. In the US it was 49% good, 29% bad, and in Malaysia it was 38% good, 18% bad [1].

[1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/23/americans-fa...

nchelluri• 11 years ago

Read it. Not sure what the full ramifications will be in the end of going with such language but clearly protecting consumers is secondary and giving power to right holders is the intention.

As an aside and speaking as a Canadian citizen and resident, Geist is someone who has been very helpful for educating and directing consumers and helping protect our rights. He's very easy to understand, covers issues relevant to consumers as they are becoming relevant, and has obtained what is in my (lay) opinion a well deserved reputation as being someone you can trust to keep you edcuated and safe as a consumer. The work he does is really valuable, IMO. Plus, he let me (among many others) add him as a connection on LinkedIn, even though we've clearly never worked together, which somehow I find very neat :)

themartorana• 11 years ago

As far as I can tell, it's not just the general public that's being overlooked - every country that signs on to import the US's terrible policies (I'm a US citizen) is giving up future sovereignty. This boggles the mind. Governments of today are signing away the sovereign rights of governments of tomorrow to establish the rule of law as they see fit.

I'm not a New World Order conspiracy theorist, but am I misreading the impact on democratic societies to govern themselves that this represents?

And hey, if the US can export this set of corporate-protectionism laws to other democracies, do you really think they'll stop with the TPP?

Esau2• 11 years ago

It's for the corporation, by the corporation. Which might explain the lack of news coverage on this.

chishaku• 11 years ago

The effect you're describing didn't start and won't end with TPP.

Recent examples:

Wednesday’s 300-131 vote repealing the country-of-origin labels for meat follows a series of rulings by the World Trade Organization finding the labeling discriminates against animals imported from Canada and Mexico.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/house-votes-to-remove-country-of...

On Jan. 6, TransCanada went to court to claim that the Obama administration’s failure to approve the Keystone XL pipeline violates U.S. obligations under the North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA. The company is asking for $15 billion in compensation from U.S. taxpayers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/01/0...

EU moves to regulate hormone-damaging chemicals linked to cancer and male infertility were shelved following pressure from US trade officials over the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) free trade deal, newly released documents show.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-droppe...

tptacek5• 11 years ago

How is that appeal to sovereignty not a charge you could level at any treaty? Isn't that more or less the definition of a treaty?

colinprince• 11 years ago

See also Michael Geist's TPP presentation at CIGI:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTrS1GeADQU

nickjackson• 11 years ago

I've watched about 30 minutes of this, and I am growingly disgusted by the TPP and the US government. I am a brit, and all though we aren't part of the TPP, we are still in the back pocket of the United States.

It's a shame that we rely so heavily on trade with the US, that we feel that we need to look past the so called "lobbying" and corruption in US politics, and implement such overbearing rules on behalf of Hollywood and others.

The stuff about the US putting Canada on "probation" and mandating that every 6 months Canada has to report back to the US "as if it was some kind of naughty student to the teacher" is just ridiculous.

This has to stop.

stuaxo• 11 years ago

Well in the UK and rest of Europe, we will get TTIP which is basically the same as TPP.

There is a 38 degreess page for TTIP [1].

Protesters against TTIP were being labelled as anti-American in the debate in parliament the in December[2], which I find ironic, as the movement against TTIP, TPP etc all started In America.

Another argument used was that nobody had opposed CETA in the same way TTIP so, again must be us being scared of America - I would again put it down to opposition to these treaties starting in America + thi jumpstarting opposition in the UK.

[1] https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/pages/ttip_home

[2] http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/c...

tptacek5• 11 years ago

Your country happily joined ours to invade Iraq, which resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian fatalities, but it's "Hollywood lobbying" that's the last straw for you?

Had the UK not signed on to the Bush administration's war, 2003 might have gone differently; Blair's alliance with Bush was a key "legitimizing" force.

My point, relevant to this thread, is that I don't think the UK is somehow coerced by US market power. The UK sees its best interests as mostly aligned with those of the US, which is not surprising when you compare the structure of our respective economies (for instance: London is the other Wall Street).

There are countries in the world with a reasonable claim against market-driven hegemony. The United Kingdom isn't one of them.

mark_l_watson• 11 years ago

Warren Buffet once said something like: there has been class warfare and my side won.

About 15 years ago I had an ongoing discussion with my neighbors (both retired medical doctors) about creeping corporatism. 15 years ago we all agreed that the best people can do is to be resilient by not being in debt, stay educated, have strong social networks; I think the way we agreed to describe it was to live like mice in the walls, comfortably and off the radar.

I still agree that this is the strategy: try to live a free and inspired life (to quote Katherine Austin Fitts) despite what is happening in the world.

meric• 11 years ago

I agree - and if one is a migrant, it would be wise to watch the community's attitude to foreigners. Maybe in a decade or two, it would be a time to bid farewell the country one now calls home. I can feel the tension rising.

tamana• 11 years ago

I read similar shout how to survive in soviet Russia during the fall of communism. There is a blogger from a few years ago whose theme was about how US economy was moving toward collapsing, and how to survive like Russians did.

green7ea• 11 years ago

I'm curious if you could find a link to that blog, it sounds interesting.

walterbell• 11 years ago

There are 3 days left to submit public comments to the USTR on the labor impacts of TPP, http://www.flushthetpp.org/your-chance-to-officially-tell-th...

"According to the Federal Register, the Office of the US Trade Representative announced on Dec. 28 that it “is seeking public comments on the impact of the TPP Agreement on U.S. employment, including labor markets.” The open comment period extends until January 13, 2016. It is critical that as many people as possible write to them about this ...

Sample comment ... As a consumer I have been dismayed at the rising rate of cheap imports that are made by poorly compensated and often abused workers. The products are often shoddy. I would rather pay fair wages to American workers for products that will endure. In so doing I believe we not only lift up our own people and our own communities, but we lift up the rest of the world by no longer being a party to predatory labor practices abroad ..."

The Trouble with the TPP, Day 5: Rights Holders “Shall” vs. Users “May”

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