The two faces of Airbnb

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-two-faces-of-airbnb-2015-10

by nkurz • 11 years ago

198 129 11 years ago

100k• 11 years ago

People love _using_ Airbnb, but don't want an Airbnb rental next to their home. The negative externalities remind me of cars: super useful for me, super annoying to you.

aw3c2• 11 years ago

I am a considerate guest, trying not to disturb the neighbors. The guests I have in the flat next door tend to be partying cunts.

abrowne• 11 years ago

I've enjoyed using Airbnb, and I think the same about myself, but it's hard to rent a place and only get considerate guests.

nostrademons• 11 years ago

Which bodes well for Airbnb, since the modern business environment is pretty much based on socializing negative externalities while providing value to direct customers. Besides cars, there's also oil, coal, mining, plastics, advertising, agriculture, water rights, and housing development.

abalashov• 11 years ago

This. I don't know why I get so many blank stares when I explain that a great deal of the technocratic New Economy is about reassignment of risk.

guard-of-terra3• 11 years ago

Article's author seems to defend problems rather than acknowledge their solutions.

"it comes from professional landlords who are removing badly needed housing from the local market and making it available exclusively for tourists"

Since when in modern society should commercial entities care about what is "badly needed" instead of where profit lies? Since when it's not only politicans need to pretend to care about "regular people", but commercial property owners?

"That’s true of regular hotels as well, but usually they exist in areas that have been zoned for such activity"

This seems to be the root of problem. Zoning is a socialist measure. It will create all kinds of shortages.

The whole article reads to me like this:

We've implemented this zoning measure that we knew would cause problems. And by golly it did! Now we're trying to blame these problems on all kinds of commercial entities. Make them fix things for us that we knew would arise. And we also want more regulations to fix problems caused by having regulations in the first place.

mistersquid• 11 years ago

You seem purposely to miss some of the points of Steven Hill's very even-handed analysis which is that some AirBnB operators are turning residential zones into commercial hotel zones by having multiple listings and this causes conflicts for 1) residents who find commercial activity in and around their homes , 2) municipalities deprived of tax revenue, 3) guests who find themselves in units that do no have adequate safety protections let alone commercial insurance.

This is especially problematic given that in LA, SF, and NYC AirBnB makes a large fraction (~44%) of its revenue from commercial operators with multiple listings. That is, in these markets nearly half of AirBnB "hosts" are entrepreneurs who are flouting municipal law and obligations for their personal gain and to others' detriments.

Hill offers a few common sense (and in my opinion equitable) actions AirBnB might take to make amends. In a passage worth quoting in context, Hill writes

Perhaps the biggest tragedy in all this is that at the core of Airbnb is a really good idea. It has cleverly used Web- and app-based technology to bust open a global market that connects tourists with financially strapped homeowners. After interviewing some of Airbnb’s “regular-people” hosts, I’m convinced that this service legitimately does help them make ends meet.
But by taking such a hands-off, laissez-faire attitude toward the professionalization of hosting by greedy commercial landlords and multiproperty agents, Airbnb has become its own worst enemy. As the number of victims piles up, it undermines its own “sharing and trust” ethos because Airbnb could easily meet cities halfway:
• With one stroke of the computer mouse, Airbnb could “evict the evictors” — de-list from its website any professional landlords or property managers operating multiple properties as tourist hotels. It has the data and knows who they are.
• Cooperate with cities like San Francisco, Santa Monica, and Portland, which require hosts to register with local agencies, by de-listing any unregistered hosts.
• Pay the same hotel occupancy taxes that hotels pay in all 34,000 cities in which Airbnb operates, or collect them from the hosts and turn them over to the cities.
• Stop refusing to supply the data that cities need to enforce regulations and taxation, including the number of rental nights and rates charged by each host.

EDIT: Remove markup. Readability. Grammar.

guard-of-terra3• 11 years ago

I think that zones are the problem. There should not be residential zones. There should not be commercial zones. There should just be the city.

Or else you should be ready for consequences: shortages of one thing after another, people turning sour, inadequate pricing.

1) I don't see why one would at the same time expect to live in a heart of dynamic, rich and important city and be shielded from reality. Yes, if you live in a shared building you may find a brothel, drug pusher store, or AirBNB rental next door. Call the police if they behave. Cope otherwise, or move to suburbs.

This may sound unfair if you expect otherwise, but those expectations are unrealistic.

2) But they don't talk about tax, they talk about banning. Taxing is a thing they can do. Just write a law clear enough that it would explicitly cover AirBNB, with clear understanding how this tax should work. Then force it out of AirBNB, suing if needed. Of course, some of individual lenders will go grey (for example, exchanging money outside of AirBNB's sight), but so can do hotels.

3) I don't see why short term rented flat would need more safety protections than regular flat.

Pass adequate laws. Don't ever start talking about banning something. That is what you should do.

WhitneyLand3• 11 years ago

Even handed? You're talking about "greedy" landlords without citing specific examples of greed.

You may think, they're are all sleazy and greedy so what's the difference? Fine, but you don't get to then label that lazy thinking even handed analysis.

Edit: Not a landlord, no affiliation with Airbnb or landlords.

AndrewKemendo5• 11 years ago

I have stayed at 4 AirBnB properties over the past month or so. The first three were great. They were - almost literally bed and breakfasts, where I interacted with my hosts and they made me breakfast the next morning and were company in the evening.

Last week I stayed at one in NYC and it was honestly weird. The host wasn't there and just left the door unlocked and all the lights off - without saying as much in an AirBnB message. Some of the outlets did not have outlet covers, leaving wiring exposed etc...

Anyway, it's been clear for a very long time that the thing that you find from a hotel is completely lacking with AirBnB: Consistency.

On the flip side, should people be looking at AirBnB as a direct replacement for hotels? Obviously that is the operating thesis, but I think a better way to consider AirBnB is as a marketplace for Bed and Breakfast accommodations. All of the problems that are brought up go away if you think of it in that context.

JonFish853• 11 years ago

Aside from the fact that if you market it as such, it loses literally billions in valuation. Airbnb cannot become just a middleman for bed and breakfasts because its investors would rather fail at being a replacement for Hilton/Marriott than settling for a small time bed and breakfast purveyor.

AndrewKemendo5• 11 years ago

Aside from the fact that if you market it as such, it loses literally billions in valuation.

Therein lies the rub. What a consumer receives may be materially different than what investors and the company thinks it should be.

JoshTriplett• 11 years ago

Sounds like much of the problem would go away with better labeling and categorization. Some people want the get-to-know-your-host experience, some people want the impersonal experience, and some people might want either one depending on the nature of the trip. The problem arises when you expect one and get the other.

AndrewKemendo5• 11 years ago

Definitely. Though to be fair, I was looking at it from the perspective of a hotel alternative, not for Bed and Breakfast - so my results are more indicative of what I think is appropriate in terms of branding.

enraged_camel2• 11 years ago

I guess I don't understand why people looking for an impersonal experience don't just book a hotel - or even a motel. At least then you are guaranteed certain things such as working showers and toilets.

jkot• 11 years ago

Maybe your experience was caused by NYC? I find it quite good except big cities such as NY and London

AndrewKemendo5• 11 years ago

Perhaps, though one was in the heart of LA, so I don't know if that in and of itself is an issue - I think volume is the bigger issue and whether the room/place is used exclusively for AirBnB listing or if it is legitimately just part of the owner's lifestyle.

unchocked• 11 years ago

AirBnB is a reputation-based but otherwise largely unregulated marketplace for nightly accommodation.

Simple as that, I don't know why so many people seem to be tearing their hair out over what it is and what that means.

JonFish853• 11 years ago

They are actually fairly heavily regulated, but they choose to ignore that regulation. The majority of their listings are in cities where they are illegal.

rwmj• 11 years ago

I've never used AirBnB, but presumably the electrical safety problems are things that you can highlight in your review, and will inform future guests?

(I've stayed in hotels with very dodgy electrics, so I don't think this is necessarily an AirBnB-only problem)

potatolicious• 11 years ago

I've stayed at a couple AirBnbs that were pretty bad - including an obvious bedbug infestation at one of them.

Both of the AirBnbs came with plenty of rave reviews and had a high average star rating, and all had a good number of reviews to boot.

Either the typical AirBnb guest has really low standards - where 4 walls that didn't collapse on them in their sleep is an automagic 5-star rating - or there's something fishy going on with them reviews.

pilsetnieks• 11 years ago

the thing that you find from a hotel is completely lacking with AirBnB: Consistency

AirBnB isn't an alternative to a hotel, it's an alternative to a booking agency. That's like calling Booking.com inconsistent because you can rent a room at varying levels of hotels.

There are good hotels and bad hotels, and you cannot always know what you're going to get when booking a hotel room sight unseen, either.

gohrt• 11 years ago

"hotel" is defined, by law in most jurisdictions, to have certain properties, regardless of quality or level. AirBnB listings have very few of these properties as part of the definition.

AndrewKemendo5• 11 years ago

Maybe I should clarify...it's an alternative to hotels.com

The difference however is that there is a minimum standard I am getting with all the properties listed at hotels.com, in that there is a consistent check in/out process, there are always options for accessibility, there is a person I can call 24/7 at every location if there is something wrong with the room etc...

It's no secret that the general thought around AirBnB is that it is an alternative to booking a hotel, please don't pretend that isn't the case. That's the entire valuation thesis.

thaumasiotes2• 11 years ago

should people be looking at AirBnB as a direct replacement for hotels? Obviously that is the operating thesis, but I think a better way to consider AirBnB is as a marketplace for Bed and Breakfast accommodations

I think you're overlooking a very large group of people for whom "hotel" and "bed and breakfast" are fully synonymous terms.

hitekker• 11 years ago

Slightly unrelated: I host interesting folk in NYC for free. Have you considered trying out Couchsurfing instead?

tajano• 11 years ago

I stayed in a house in nice residential neighborhood in Berkeley recently. It had four bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a kitchen, and it was clear the owner didn't live there. In fact, I never saw the owner or spoke with him at all. We were instructed to not speak to the neighbors, and not answer any questions about the owner's Airbnb business. Clearly, the neighbors weren't pleased that an unregulated hotel had sprung up in the middle of their neighborhood.

On the other hand, it cost me $60/night versus the $250+/night charged by local 3-star hotels.

knocte5• 11 years ago

IMHO all the regulation to be done against multi-property landlords should be created at the state-level, I mean, decoupled from any Airbnb-like infrastructure ("don't shoot the messenger!").

That is, the state has ultimately all the information regarding real-estate ownership. Creating laws that tax adequately the companies/individuals that own more than 1 property should be easy, and irrespective to how/if they monetize them.

Doing a regulation against AirBNB is ultimately going to hurt the real regular people that is being helped by this "sharing-economy", such as the ones that just rent their unique property (either because they have an extra bedroom or because their job required them to move to a different city where they bought their house, and therefore use their AirBNB income to pay the rent of a different apartment).

abandonliberty• 11 years ago

They're not shooting the messenger.

Proposition F >Limits short-term rentals of a unit to 75 days per year, regardless of whether rental is hosted or unhosted. >Requires proof that the unit’s owner authorizes using the unit as a short-term rental. >Requires short-term hosts to submit quarterly reports on the number of days they live in the unit and the number of days the unit is rented >Mandates that the city post notice on buildings with a unit approved for short-term rentals and notify by mail owners, neighbors of the unit and interested neighborhood organizations. Source: Ballot Simplification Committee

AirBnB created a market in an area where existing laws didn't apply. This is part of legislation catching up.

knocte5• 11 years ago

There you go, 75 days a year? That affects small-owners in the same way as multi-owners.

orthoganol2• 11 years ago

Here’s what’s wrong: an increasing amount of Airbnb’s commercial activity in cities like New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles does not come from the listings of “regular people” who are merely renting out a spare room.

This is my problem with AirBnB. I know investment firms buying as much property as they can to list on AirBnB. Every single rental I stayed in when traveling around Asia was done by 'power users' or real estate companies with scores of listing throughout the cities.

Unfortunately, that means in my experience the quality drops, no 'homey' feel, and it negatively impacts the locals.

AirBnB should implement the rule that you only get to list 1 rental. That would solve this problem, and allow them to stop lying to everyone about who is actually renting on their platform.

jgalt212• 11 years ago

AirBnB should implement the rule that you only get to list 1 rental. That would solve this problem, and allow them to stop lying to everyone about who is actually renting on their platform.

That proposal is a one way train from a $25B valuation to $2.5B valuation.

Of course, if AirBnB loses a number of these key regulatory battles that too could put a serious damper on their biz. Hence, their massive lobbying efforts.

orthoganol2• 11 years ago

If 90% of their business comes from 'power users' and investment firms and not 'locals renting their home while they are out of town' - then AirBnB is founded on an extraordinary lie.

untog2• 11 years ago

But what is the better foundation: an honest 2.5B valuation, or dishonest 25B one?

(calling Airbnb 'dishonest' is perhaps an exaggeration, but their advertising definitely reflects values that a lot of hosts don't represent, and they must know that)

jessriedel2• 11 years ago

AirBnB should implement the rule that you only get to list 1 rental.

I agree with your concerns, but why not just distinguish between personal/regular/single user and power/multi-listing/comercial users? Craigslist does this pretty well with their "for sale by owner" vs. "for sale by dealer" option.

SapphireSun• 11 years ago

The reason they don't do this, I suspect, is because "for sale by dealer" is illegal is a lot of places unless the host registers as a hotel and complies with hotel regulations (which probably excludes their property from being usable).

mdesq• 11 years ago

My experience with Craigslist is that there are huge numbers of one-off dealers selling under the "by owner" category.

mgkimsal3• 11 years ago

Agreed. Small sample size, but my wife used airbnb twice in london. First time was good (not great, but good). Second was horrible. (no curtain on windows directly facing office buildings, broken shower, no tv, 2 hangers for a 10 day booked stay, etc). Video evidence for everything, and multi-day delays in getting resolutions (everything documented via their platform). Requested a partial refund (no working shower for 4 days?) Response was a resounding no, then threats from the person who was doing the renting that they would post negative reviews of my wife as a renter so no one would rent from us again. Guess what? The owner (and his girlfriend) had several airbnb properties they were renting out, growing a landlording business (without all the pesky regulation). (edit: there were multiple reviews stating how great it was - it was a veritable dump - which is partially ok, but broken shower, no tv, etc - when those are clearly listed amenities - is simply lying. Oh, and if you're going to rent out a room/place via airbnb, please remove moldy/stale food from your refrigerator first)

Contrasting that with a recent nashville visit via airbnb (I didn't book it, but stayed there) - the epitome of the "share my home" aspect that gets played up - notes around the house, everything fresh and tidy, etc).

Forcing just 1 would certainly get back to the roots. Or perhaps a sliding scale - fees go up as you want to list more rooms? The individuals wanting to rent out a spare room get the cheapest fees - the people trying to be the next hilton (sans service and regulation) pay correspondingly higher fees).

larrys• 11 years ago

I wonder what controls they have to prevent someone who gets dinged with bad ratings (as a landlord) from reposting the same exact property. After all it would be trivial to post with an address and unit "1705a" and then if a problem just call it "1705b" with different pictures as if it's a completely new listing (and curious if that much effort is actually needed). Likewise landlords (I am a commercial landlord) often have various entities that they use so it's easy to come up with a new "owner" of the unit. I wonder if Airbnb even cross refs ownership with city records at all.

venomsnake2• 11 years ago

Second was horrible. (no curtain on windows directly facing office buildings, broken shower, no tv, 2 hangers for a 10 day booked stay, etc).

With current housing boom in London that is the luxury package .... /almost sarcastic

muddyrivers• 11 years ago

One question I haven't seen to be raised often is how the reviews are "regulated" by airbnb.

I rented an apartment in a metropolitan city via airbnb last year. Both the owner and the apartment got about ~15 excellent reviews. It turned out the owner was very indeed very nice and friendly, but the apartment was far from both the description and the reviews. Our friends living in the city was astound since the price we paid should get us a much better deal than that.

It made me wonder if 1) the reviews were "regulated" or "engineered" somehow, 2) due to the two-way review system, renters were reluctant to write a bad review since they were concerned they could get retaliated by the owners giving them bad reviews in response.

Edit: fix typos

discardorama3• 11 years ago

Response was a resounding no, then threats from the person who was doing the renting that they would post negative reviews of my wife as a renter so no one would rent from us again.

Umm, are you sure? You can leave reviews only if you actually rent from someone. It's not like Yelp, where anyone can write reviews for any place. On AirBnB, the actual rental transaction has to happen.

Secondly: you don't see each other's reviews until after the review period has closed. So you could leave a negative review, but the owner would not see it until their time to review has passed.

tlogan• 11 years ago

This is exactly what happen to eBay: eventually, eBay become "crappy Amazon".

If I'm AirBnB I would focus to be real marketplace so AirBnB does not end up as "crappy hotels.com" - but on other hand, eBay did extremely good (if you sold stocks before 2014).

prawn3• 11 years ago

For a while, eBay was the default name in "looking to buy/sell something second hand" in Australia. "Just put it on eBay," that sort of thing. It was then overrun by professional sellers and I almost never hear it mentioned.

People speak almost exclusively here of Gumtree which is individuals selling second hand things. Gumtree is, these days, owned by eBay.

zouhair• 11 years ago

I remember the days when ebay was all about how people are mainly nice.

thaumasiotes2• 11 years ago

Every single rental I stayed in when traveling around Asia was done by 'power users' or real estate companies with scores of listing throughout the cities.

To some extent this probably reflects what you're looking for. When I investigated airbnb rentals in Shanghai, there were a number of notices to the effect of "because I'm female, it's not convenient for me to have a male guest".

gogaoa• 11 years ago

I don't mind professional listings, really; but I do mind fraudulent ones. And AirBNB isn't setup to encourage honest feedback.

My singular experience with AirBNB was a listing where they advertised a NYC address 2 avenues from the real address; they lied about details; they used a multitude of names; they told me to lie about who I was to a superintendent who might stop by. The place was a pit.

But my recourse was limited, because I didn't feel like getting into a fight with fraudsters who knew my real identity but who'd hid their own, and AirBNB doesn't give a shit. So I just recognized that AirBNB is a haven for crime, realized that their review policies are designed to protect the criminals, and I stopped using it, and became an anti-airbnb advocate.

I hope I meet Brian Chesky someday, because PG loves to go on about what a great guy he is, but as near as I can tell he's a sociopathic asshole who made purposeful design decisions specifically to enable fraud that happens to increase his profits. This makes sense, given that he built the whole damned thing by being a spammer (and lying about it). I'm genuinely curious if he's not the completely worthless piece of shit that he absolutely appears to be from a customer standpoint.

AJ007• 11 years ago

Big companies turn a blind eye to bad stuff, in part because it is really hard to manage and because truly cracking down may remove all revenue growth for a while. I don't need to list the specifics, but both Google and Amazon are certainly guilty of the same thing.

Some interesting things I don't hear mentioned often:

a) prostitutes have been shifting away from hotels to airbnb ~ at some point this could be a serious safety concern b) there is nothing in place to prevent racial discrimination

I haven't had any terrible experiences with Airbnb. I've used it just a few times. I have noticed a tendency for places to look good in pictures but you don't know if like the mattress is horrible.

Realistically cities may need to have an additional zoning category for short term residential rentals. Buildings/condos/apartments/co-ops most certainly have a right to aggressively enforce rules if something like airbnb is prohibited. If an airbnb host is either breaking the rules of the property or the city, they should be on the hook to refund all booking fees from day one.

venomsnake2• 11 years ago

I don't mind professional listings

Back in my day, they were called hotels. And were regulated.

dang• 11 years ago

as near as I can tell he's a sociopathic asshole [...] the completely worthless piece of shit that he absolutely appears to be

We've banned this account for egregiously breaking the HN guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

knocte5• 11 years ago

AirBnB should implement the rule that you only get to list 1 rental.

Disagree to an extent. If you have two extra bedrooms in your house besides your bedroom, you should be able to have 2 listings.

The rule should be "only N listings that belong to 1 property".

scintill76• 11 years ago

Concurrently renting out 2 rooms so often that you would want this, is still a qualitative difference between renting out just 1 room or renting out your whole personal residence for just 5 weeks in the year. I don't know that it crosses a meaningful line yet, but it is moving toward the "professional/large-scale" side of the spectrum that your parent comment is complaining about.

coupdejarnac• 11 years ago

I don't think getting to list only one rental is the solution, but perhaps an owner can only list one property as their primary residence.

princeb• 11 years ago

I remember seeing their "Never a stranger" ad runs on tv. thought it was unusual that they promote the idea that hosts stay with guests. i've used airbnb twice too and both times the host was an employee of a property management company. at least, in the first one i met the host to collect and return the keycard to the room. second one was just a text message of the numeric password on the main door. Not saying that's a bad thing, but just an observation on the reality. I sort of preferred it this way, although who knows how the neighbours felt. I certainly could not care very much while I was there since I was in and out in a few weeks.

vuchr• 11 years ago

I prefer it when its run by a company, rather than someone renting out their apartment (I've stayed a coupleof times where they moved out of their home (once to stay with parents next door, not sure about the other)). I don't really see any advantage (for the person staying). The company ran ones are tidier, have cleaners they can arrange to come out and clean when required (like a hotel's daily clean), etc.

I use airbnb for cheap accomodation and because I can see exactly what the apartment will look like. I don't do it to talk to someone when checking in for an extra 10 minutes.

crabasa• 11 years ago

I understand the correlation you're making between "corporate" units and the quality of the experience, but shouldn't the ratings and reviews system completely solve this? As a frequent user of AirBnB, I feel like there is more than enough information for people to make an well-informed choice when booking. I really feel like an arbitrary limit of one would create more problems than it solves, especially since plenty of people have no desire for a "homey" experience.

choppaface• 11 years ago

The fact that "power users" are making so much money from Airbnb indicates just how poorly hotels serve travelers. Rather than curb users to 1 listing, why not try to embrace their energy to create a better travel service?

These negative Airbnb articles simply indicate that Airbnb is growing faster than the company can keep up with its users. Every issue outlined in the article-- fire safety, tax compliance, banning Ellis Act abusers, regulating "power users"-- can be mitigated or solved completely. Not without effort, for sure, but it's going too far tarnish their brand without a solid thesis about how one could build a better Airbnb. (And if somebody's going to make that argument, they might as well start a competitor or join Airbnb given the market opportunity...).

These sorts of articles should send an important message to future founders with wildly successful products: if you can curb growth and yet still outpace your competition, do that instead of "blitzscaling." You want to scale quality, you don't want to lose the faith of your users and the media in your ability to execute, and growing fast (without competition warranting it) will benefit investors more than your customers.

muglug• 11 years ago

Surely these articles lend credence to the idea that AirBnB is only growing at the rate it is because landlords are using it to "abuse" the housing market.

As the situation stands right now, they have absolutely nothing to gain by limiting those "power users", and a substantial amount to lose.

Swannie• 11 years ago

"The fact that "power users" are making so much money from Airbnb indicates just how poorly hotels serve travelers"

There are plenty of well ran boutique hotels that serve travellers very well. "Power users" are making so much money by breaking the law.

If they were following the law, they would be running highly profitable boutique hotels/bed and breakfast houses /above the law/.

pyrophane• 11 years ago

The fact that "power users" are making so much money from Airbnb indicates just how poorly hotels serve travelers. Rather than curb users to 1 listing, why not try to embrace their energy to create a better travel service?

A lot of people prefer Airbnb not because hotels are so terrible but because Airbnb is so cheap.

These negative Airbnb articles simply indicate that Airbnb is growing faster than the company can keep up with its users.

Airbnb is a big company with a lot of resources at this point. They aren't doing anything about these problems because they don't want to.

Right now they are exactly where they want to be: they collect a hefty percentage of every transaction that rolls through their platform, and they get to offload pretty much all of the risk onto their users.

rtpg• 11 years ago

I think AirBnB relies on those power users to have the volume it does. It's unlikely they would ever set that rule because it would basically break their business model (hotel listings, basically)

trymas• 11 years ago

And it also made real estate prices skyrocket in some places, because rich people (or usually companies) bought out a lot of property, which is now rented for a nice profit. Some apartment buildings can looks very strange as they are relatively empty because it is clearly used as 'AirBnB hotel'.

Basically if you want to buy/rent property for a sane price you must go deep into suburbs.

P.S. It's all my subjective experience, I have not conducted any studies.

WhitneyLand3• 11 years ago

How is Airbnb responsible for rent control evictions? Landlords would get rid of these tenants at any opportunity regardless of whether Airbnb ever existed.

tptacek• 11 years ago

Not sure if I'm missing something about your question, because this seems obvious. It's increasing the demand (by allocating a whole new population of short-term tenants to the market, who would otherwise either not visit or would stay in hotels and hostels) and constricting the supply (by incentivizing landlords to take entire properties off the rental market to service those tenants).

WhitneyLand3• 11 years ago

I'm pointing out the demand they create is irrelevant - Landlords always have/will act against rent control.

Zarel2• 11 years ago

If you're counting "short term tenants" in the demand, it seems really dishonest not to count the properties that serve them in the supply.

If we're talking about the supply and demand of all housing, supply has not changed because because using properties to service short-term tenants is still keeping it in the supply, and demand has not changed because you're conflating demand with transaction quantity.

In other words, when Airbnb allows the supply of short-term rental properties to increase, this decreases equilibrium price and increases transaction quantity of short-term rentals, but demand itself isn't affected. The number of people who _want_ to visit San Francisco at any given price point hasn't changed, it's just the number of people _able_ to visit that's changed.

Really, all that's going on here is that Airbnb has lowered the barrier of entry to short-term rentals, allowing landlords to more easily address market inefficiencies created by rent control.

Not that rent control is wrong, but it does work against market forces, and markets tend to route around regulations that work against market forces, in the form of black markets, or scalpers, or whatever. Your enemy really isn't individuals or companies so much as market forces themselves, and while sometimes it's necessary to fight them, honestly, it'd be easier just to legalize building denser housing. Unlike Airbnb, that's what's _really_ restricting the supply.

tomasien• 11 years ago

Housing in New York City and San Francisco is a problem - MASSIVE. Airbnb has helped many people in those cities find places to stay, make extra income, etc. I'm certain, because of the reasons the problem exists in the first place, that people have and will continue to find ways to use it in ways that are harmful to vulnerable populations.

But if you focus really with any energy on Airbnb as a part of the problem rather than some of the applications of Airbnb as EVIDENCE of the problem, boy howdy are you missing the point. I fear that is what will happen - everyone wants a scape goat, tech is an easy one.

geebee2• 11 years ago

I'm a little late to this thread, but I think short term rentals could be a bigger core problem than you've recognized. This is all hard to determine without data, and some of what I am worried about is a risk rather than a current reality, though it appears to be growing.

Here's where I'm coming from - in my lifetime, the percentage of SF residents under the age of 18 has dropped from about 22% to below 14%. Much of this happened without airbnb or short term rentals, so obviously they can't be the core cause. However, it could exacerbate it.

Airbnb makes it far easier to rent out a "spare" bedroom - in doing so, they vastly increase the value of having a "spare" bedroom that you don't use. So if you are a family with just one kid, three bedroom houses suddenly become much more attractive than two bedroom houses, because what used to be an occasional guest room is now an income generator. What happens when a family with two kids goes up against them in a bidding war? One family can factor in the extra income, the other factors in no extra income and the additional expenses of an additional kid.

airBnB(noKids, hasKids) { unless(noKids.income(isWayHigherThan(hasKids.income)) { numKidsSF--; } }

At least in that scenario someone is still going to be "from" SF (when this is no longer the case, SF will be nothing more than a disneyland for young people and empty nesters).

It can get worse - what happens if investors now realize that they can just buy the whole 3br house and treat it as a hotel?

I could see airbnb being a factor in driving the already collapsing percentage of SF residents who are children to even lower lows.

By the way, in all of this, I see a good place for airbnb. If a San Francisco family wants to leave for a vacation in Paris, and they can rent out their place for a couple of weeks, and vice-versa, this seems like a good thing. But if converting a "spare" bedroom means that what were formerly kid's bedrooms are too profitable as tourist rentals to be wasted on children, then no, this would be extremely destructive to SF.

We need to regulate this, and airbnb needs to be a good citizen and cooperate. The suggestions in this business insider are good ones.

fineman4• 11 years ago

"We need to regulate this, ..."

Do you know that adage that goes: "... then they say, I know, I'll use a regexp. And then they have two problems."

It's regulation that got SF into this problem.

xivzgrev• 11 years ago

This article captured exactly how I feel. Airbnb has become it's own worst enemy by getting greedy and not proactively removing bad actors who make them money. And I really hope SF passes prop F to force their hand.

floodyberry-• 11 years ago

How does Airbnb have two faces? Their entire company is just an app that offloads all of the regulations, upkeep, and safety of running a Hotel on to the users, and charges them for the "privilege". The only face there is a greedy leech taking advantage of "not illegal yet" loopholes.

heroh• 11 years ago

that describes Uber pretty well too

Ch_livecodingtv• 11 years ago

I stayed in an AirBnb property and I had good experience. But when you realize the place you stayed wasn't really surveyed for security, it's scary.

tcdent• 11 years ago

Unfortunately, that means in my experience the quality drops, no 'homey' feel, and it negatively impacts the locals.

Isn't this the fundamental goal of reviews; get a real opinion from the users on wether this is a good or bad thing?

jrbapna• 11 years ago

The housing shortage in SF is a citywide problem that goes far beyond airbnb. Removing airbnb listings would barely make a dent in the extreme housing problem that we have in San Francisco.

The few times I've used airbnb they were always much better than comparatively priced hotels in the area.

WalterSear• 11 years ago

AirBnB was just walking by the scene, looking unsavoury enough to make for a sufficently satisfying lynching.

danieltillett2• 11 years ago

The interesting thing about AirBnB is by going down the unregulated hotel route is it opens up an opportunity for competitors to come in offering a real home sharing experience.

jackblack343• 11 years ago

I don't understand why they are allowed to look the other way when "professionals" are breaking local laws. Youtube can't allow copyrighted movies on their site. Megaupload was shut down. Below is a real customer service response to reporting a professional in our building.

thanks for reaching out about this, I do apologize for the delay in my teams reply and for contacting us regarding your concerns with the listings you've identified. Airbnb is an online platform and does not own, operate, manage or control accommodations, nor do we verify private contract terms or arbitrate complaints from third parties. We do, however, require hosts to represent that they have all rights to list their accommodations. To that end, we are committed to notifying hosts about complaints such as yours, provided we (i) receive a formal written letter (scanned electronically as an image or .pdf) addressed to the user that (ii) details your specific allegation, and (iii) fully identifies the Airbnb user to whom you believe it applies (please include links). Although we will not verify, evaluate or arbitrate the terms you identify, we will provide a complete copy of your complaint to the host and we will ask them whether they wish to remove their listing(s). Again, thank you for contacting us about this. Best,

flashman• 11 years ago

Well, quite simply, YouTube are (and Megaupload was) serving the infringing content, making them a contributory party. If we started holding building managers responsible for the lawbreaking of their residents, that would at least set some cats among the pigeons I guess.

dandare• 11 years ago

This just reminds me of Uber - same clash of ideologies between those whon see empowerment of people through new technology and those who see unfair advantage through breaking the law. The problem is that both sides are right. Both Uber and AirBnB provide better/new service through new technology where the incumbents usually didn't bother to inovate and banning them would be backwards. But both also profit from not being subjected to the same regulations - and this is what we should be discussing. While some regulations add value - fire safety standards etc - other are just disguised taxes - why should taxi licences be auctioned for the price of a family house?

The two faces of Airbnb

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