Car CNG conversion licenses cost $10k from the EPA

http://gas2.org/2009/07/31/natural-gas-conversions-could-cost-a-couple-hundred/

by paddy_m • 17 years ago

20 14 17 years ago

ams61102• 17 years ago

The existence of absurd EPA regulations is not a surprise. However the claim that a car can be converted to CNG for "a few hundred dollars in parts and labor" is unbelievable. You can't just throw a couple of barbeque grill tanks in the trunk. A DOT-approved CNG tank will be roughly $2000 - $3000 all by itself, based on prices at http://www.cngconversionsonline.com/

Add in other parts and labor and I'd ballpark it at around $5,000 minimum. And it has to be done properly: you don't want a CNG leak in your garage overnight. Some sort of certification of installers is warranted.

dchest• 17 years ago

It costs "a few hundred dollars in parts and labor" in Moscow, Russia ($400 [Lada] - $1500 [Chevrolet Suburban], Russian, Polish, and Italian parts), based on price lists on the web. Labor is cheaper here, but it takes from 4 (most cases) to 12 (non-standard cases) hours to install.

khafra• 17 years ago

You're also probably ok without an EPA license in Russia or India. The complaint's probably valid in the context where it matters. But either way--taxing 300% or 3,000%--that's a travesty for an organization that's purportedly dedicated to preserving the environment.

FraaJad2• 17 years ago

Factory(OEM) fitted LNG/CNG cars are sold in India for less than $1000 premium over gasoline versions.

Most of the non-factory fitted,quality certified, govt-regulated, certified mechanic installed gas kits cost in the same ball park range.

$5,000 is the price of a entry level Suzuki van with a factory fitted LPG kit ;).

dazzla• 17 years ago

However much the parts and labor costs the licensing fee adds $10k which is very significant.

awa2• 17 years ago

In India, a hack conversion (not approved by government) costs about $200 in parts + labor (not including the tank). And yes they use a domestic gas tank (similar to barbeque grill tank) kept in the trunk.

mmt4• 17 years ago

It's important to note that LPG (liquefied petroleum gas, mostly propane) is very much not the same thing as CNG (compressed natural gas) from an engineering perspective.

CNG tanks have to keep much higher pressures and are therefore quite a bit more expensive. As a previous commenter noted, $2k-$3k just for the tank is about right, at least for a new, light unit. If you're willing to go the solid steel route, you can probably still get something old and heavy [1] for under $1k, but good luck finding capacity at under $100/GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent).

Lastly, there's the safety question. Currently, CNG cars have remarkably good real-world crash experience. I don't believe there's a single tank burst or fire in a collision [2]. I'd be curious to know if other countries, with more lax regulations, have as good safety statistics.

TANSTAAFL

LNG (liquefied natural gas) is also quite different from LPG. I've looked into it, if only as an emergency reserve fuel tank. Turns out that to store it indefinitely requires refrigeration (or, presumably, absurd amounts of insulation), else it'll boil off, escaping out the pressure relief valve installed in the tank for just such an eventuality. Fortunately, like a pot of water on a stove, it doesn't all boil off at once, so there's little risk of leakage if one always uses enough vapor to keep the pressure down.

[1] To the tune of hundreds of pounds. This is less likely to be a concern for converting trucks, but I notice a fuel economy difference carrying just one adult passenger in my Civic GX. [2] I haven't looked this up in the last 3 years or so. Corrections/updates are appreciated.

Edit: added paragraph on LNG.

bioweek• 17 years ago

Why would natural gas make less carbon emissions?

mmt4• 17 years ago

Short answer: because it has a lower carbon:hydrogen ratio.

NG is mostly methane (minimum 88% if I recall the stickers on the PG&E "pumps"), with 1 carbon and 4 hydrogens. The rest is made up primarily of also fairly short (2-4 carbon) chain hydrocarbons.

Traditional gasoline is heptane (7 carbon) and octane (8 carbon).

Methane's ratio is 0.25.

Heptane's ratio is 0.4375, and octane's is 0.4444. (Longer chains asymptotically approach 0.5).

ams61102• 17 years ago

But, you'll burn more methane than gasoline to get the same energy. I wonder how close it ends up in reality.

Car CNG conversion licenses cost $10k from the EPA

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