Dinosaur Feathers Found in Amber Reinforce Evolution Theories (2011)

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/dinosaur-feathers-found-in-amber-reinforce-evolution-theories/245094/?single_page=true

by aaronbrethorst • 11 years ago

60 34 11 years ago

theatlantic.com

JacobAldridge• 11 years ago

I can only imagine that similar discoveries / observations even 10 or 20 years ago may have been overlooked. Until the recent conclusion that some dinosaurs were feathered, paleontologists uncovering feathers in amber or elsewhere may have simply concluded it was a bird specimen and moved on.

Which makes me wonder if there are any other specimens in museums (etc) that may warrant further investigation for clues in the evolution of dinosaurs and birds.

dalke• 11 years ago

You raise an interesting question - 1) did researchers just not see the feathers until there was the idea that they might be seeing feathers? But I can think of a few other interpretations. 2) Researcher don't systematically review everything that they see in amber but instead systematically search for specific features and ignore others (which is only slightly different than #1), 3) feathers are rare enough that it required a searching an extensive collection, which previously wasn't available, and 4) there are very people in the field.

Quoting from http://www.wired.com/2011/09/dinosaur-feathers-amber/ :

When study co-author Ryan McKellar first looked at the amber, the University of Alberta paleontologist wasn't even interested in feathers. He was interested in insects. It was only when he and Wolfe noticed odd, hair-like structures that they wondered if something other than bugs might be preserved.

I think that gives weight towards your #1, since it shows that (at least some) researchers will notice things other than what they are looking for, which is my #2.

Then again, this Atlantic article says:

What originally got me interested in this project was a single feather fragment trapped in a spider web that had been given to Dr. Brian Chatterton. ... As part of this project I was able to go through the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Palaeontology collection of 3,000 or so inclusions in great detail. After finding a lot of feather fragments in this collection, I had the good fortune of meeting the Leuck family, amateur collectors in southern Alberta, who donated a pair of additional specimens to the University of Alberta.

Wikipedia reports that "Only 11 specimens are currently known", so 8 feathers were found in a set of 3,000 pieces of amber with inclusions. I wonder when Chatterton identified that feather. And when the Leuck family recognized that they might have feathers.

These factors give more weight towards #3 and #4.

I can't figure the balance between the different factors, and the primary paper (at http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6049/1619.abstract#aff... ) is behind a paywall. But I am leaning towards your hypothesis.

DanBC• 11 years ago

There's a bunch of stuff in university and museum collections that come to light when an interested researcher goes to look for other stuff.

Recently some Charles Dickins notes were found that have been used to identify previously unidentified authors. Researchers didn't use any complex software to identify previously anonymous writing; they just read the notes that had been hidden in a collection.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/charles-dicke...

Some of the oldest fragments of the quran were recently found in a UK university collection.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-man...

There's so much stuff in collections waiting to be discovered.

JoeAltmaier2• 11 years ago

I imagine museum amber was not originally collected scientifically. The most beautiful examples were preserved - those with large insects in them. Any cloudy or obscured specimens got discarded as unworthy. That would be, any with unrecognized feathers, dismissed as flaws.

raducu• 11 years ago

"They can't determine which feathers belonged to birds or dinosaurs yet, but they did observe filament structures that are similar to those seen in other non-avian dinosaur fossils."

So, those could be just... bird feathers.

x5n12• 11 years ago

Only one way to find out. We have to clone the creature in the amber. The blood of the mosquito trapped in the amber seems like a good option.

pikoh• 11 years ago

Preferably in a remote location that's safe. Like an island.

sizzzzlerz• 11 years ago

You scientists! You're so excited that you could do this, you don't stop to think whether you should!

JoeAltmaier2• 11 years ago

Which would also be dinosaur feathers, at that time. Because back then, they weren't essentially different.

hohohmm• 11 years ago

Is US the only place that Evolution needs constant reinforcing?

palmer_eldritch2• 11 years ago

Well, it's just a theory after all...

wallzz• 11 years ago

No it's a scientific fact now

awjr• 11 years ago

Not sure you understand what "scientific theory" actually implies. "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

A theory is a proven truth until disproved ;)

reustle• 11 years ago

Well, this article is from 2011. More so then than now, I believe.

smcl2• 11 years ago

Tbh the sort of folks who don't believe in evolution are probably unlikely to be swayed by evidence. I think some of the religious arguments against evolution genuinely claim that fossil records used to support evolution are put on earth by God to test his believers. Not much you can say against that :-/ I've never seen this belief expressed in person (only on the net) so hopefully it isn't so prevalent

opposite_moron• 11 years ago

Possibly some believe this. But those who I have come across find macroevolution very hard to believe and have no qualms with small variations among "species". They say that there were different sets of creation which then something happened to one set(died out?) and another set was put in place. Also the fact that scientists admit themselves they have pretty much no idea how life first began. These are the two biggest issues of contention for most people.

A few other criticisms I've heard from people: - How many times have scientists claimed to be certain about something with their "evidence" and then switched their position at another time? I know this is seen as a plus to many but it's not an invalid concern. - Science cannot nor does it claim to be something one can use to acquire certainty about anything. You can't really prove anything with the scientific method. It's based on observation and induction(not mathematical) which are inherently flawed. - From the most basic interactions people have with science is food and medicine. We've seen how "great" GMO's have been and how many medicines have harmed people and have been taken off the shelves. It's not strange for someone to go to 5 different doctors with one set of symptoms and get 5 different diagnoses each with a different solution.

Before I'm attacked, I want to mention I am conveying what I've heard. Honestly, nobody will listen to you speak out of your emotions. A lot of people claim to be objective but then resort to name calling and exhibiting anger.

AndrewDucker• 11 years ago

Certainly the richest one:

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/wealt...

ching_wow_ka• 11 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g

Can someone address this? I've seen this put forth by many and Dawkins sounds very, very confused and completely avoids the question.

pygy_• 11 years ago

"Give an example of a mutation or evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome."

Literally any mutation that adds at least one base to the DNA chain.

That being said adding information may or may not result in beneficial traits.

ryangittins• 11 years ago

I think this video was debunked as having been tampered with quite a while ago. Someone spliced different questions in there, making it look like he didn't have an answer.

fsloth• 11 years ago

It's really stupid to argument on fundamental issues based on the elocution skills of famous people but that sounds like the video discussed here

http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Dawkins_could_not_give_an_exam...

Creationists are an extreme example of the psychological finding that brains are excellent at amplifying the currently held beliefs no matter which data it is fed by cherry picking just the notions that support the belief system.

The corollary of this is that it is pointless to argument with creationists.

Once I understood this cherry picking done automatically by brains I realized that lots of popular religious material is probably not created by malicious omission of facts but by just simply ... processing information in academically non-rigorous manner.

Like editing video to convey the message the original authors wish to convey, for example.

thaumaturgy• 11 years ago

Sure. Dawkins himself has addressed it, so I'll just let him speak for himself: http://www.skeptics.com.au/resources/articles/the-informatio...

I found this by Googling for, "dawkins give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome". It was the top result.

Y'know, we live in an age of unprecedented access to information. It really is remarkable. At no time in human history has more information been more available to more people for less effort. Why, in this age, would you want to remain willfully ignorant?

debacle• 11 years ago

But it's just a theory.

scardine• 11 years ago

Luckily humans and dinosaurs never shared the earth. If being around live hens makes me nervous, imagine the horror of being pursued by a giant carnivorous chicken. No, sir, no. Leave me with the lizards.

Dinosaur Feathers Found in Amber Reinforce Evolution Theories (2011)

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