Ask HN: How do programmers deal with ADD?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10014600

by n_siddharth • 11 years ago

17 23 11 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I have constantly struggled with the issue and have wondered how other people in the community deal with it because the cost of context switching is so high when coding. I have tried ritalin and although it helped a little, I have consciously tried to stay away from medication. Would be great if people here could share their strategies of dealing with this.

ironchef253• 11 years ago

Former / occasional programmer here.

I was categorized as having ADD / ADHD and never bothered to take anything for it although it has caused me tremendous problems in my career and school life. If you know you have this problem you can either drug yourself into a coma or make significant life choices (and learn to master your condition) to steer you into career where your strengths come into play and your weaknesses are minimized. I tried both, I like the second option better.

I no longer believe there is something wrong with me, I believe society was built for people different than me (sit still, pay attention, do one thing at a time, obey etc) and I am expected to follow and obey their rules. I believe that ADHD is a real condition but the drugs are a false solution that are driven more by pharmaceutical company marketing than reality. If they can make you feel bad about who you are, they can sell more drugs. That is wrong - if you are unhappy its because something deeper is wrong in your life that you need to change and you should find what that is.

The Good:

There are massive benefits to being an ADD-er in my experience: I can simply handle more volume of work faster and more efficiently than anyone I know. My brain is a 40-lane highway and I have no problem multitasking across many different contexts. If my brain decides to become interested in a topic, I can learn everything there is to know about that topic faster than anyone...I now learn to recognize when something interests me and feed my brain information in that time slot while the opportunity presents itself (I think its called "hyperfocus"). I have learned to work with the peculiarities of my condition and take advantage when the wind is blowing in a useful direction.

It wasn't until later in my career that I learned to be extremely detail oriented.

The Bad:

The ADD super powers come with many downsides. I am chronically bored out of my mind and single-tasking is a challenge (e.g. sitting through a lecture or boring meeting). At most jobs I found myself growing completely bored in six months and being unable to focus on my job. This resulted in a lot of useless job hopping which I now recognize in retrospect as being a symptom of my underlying condition.

Learning material which doesn't interest me is impossible, killing my academic performance. I felt strongly that other people around me could simply absorb boring "stuff" without issue and just deal with it and take the pain while my brain simply turned off in that situation, remembering nothing.

Finally, I have difficulty communicating with people. When I talk I jump all over the place (often off topic) or I skip three steps ahead. Most people's brains don't work like this.

Some Solutions:

The most important fix was to find a job or career which, by definition, involved lots of crazy stuff going on all the time. Being a programmer working on a single product for years was simply impossible to me to sustain.

Many smaller, single-product, companies work like this: Here is the one thing you do for the next two years. If you have ADHD that isn't going to work.

Many developers I know (with more normal brains) prefer to focus on one technology (Say, Ruby on Rails) to the exclusion of everything else for years. I have embraced being a super-generalist.

If you are a programmer, I recommend finding one of the following: (a) an agency which has dozens of ongoing projects in many technologies (many digital agencies are like this) so you can never get bored (b) a large company with a lot of interesting stuff going on (e.g. take a company like Microsoft which has ridiculous amounts of different technologies, products and initiatives underway at any given time).

In my case I decided that software wasn't for me and found a related career (technical marketing) which was more varied in nature (lots of new products, unexpected surprises and events going on all the time).

I thought a large company would be horrible, I was wrong - My current job is like an endless "all you can eat" buffet where I am allowed to eat as much as I want and work on projects that interest me all day long. It probably depends which department you land in.

More Immediate Solutions and Strategies:

1.) Lose weight and exercise regularly.

This will physiologically change your body and brain and make it easier to sustain focus. Can't recommend going for a run regularly enough.

2.) Embrace a single page "Shit to do" list.

Everything you need to do should fit on a single page. I tried many different techniques for time management including any number of ToDo apps etc. Everything was less efficient than Evernote or notepad.

If I have something to do, it goes on the list. Then you can ignore it or check it once a day and cross stuff off. I used to be really bad about dropping tasks and forgetting details, now I am at 100% all the time.

3.) Build your entire life around Evernote

I now completely live in Evernote. Every meeting, everything gets an Evernote page that I can come back to. The really important stuff goes in Shit To Do.

I tend to multitask through every meeting and only have part of my brain in a listening state. I take notes for that meeting in Evernote and come back to them.

People with ADD suffer from "poor working memory" which means you forget things much faster than normal people. The cure is to rely on Everynote or some other method to store all the details for you. That way, you can get around the poor working memory issue by letting the computer do the remembering.

misja111• 11 years ago

I agree with all Ironchef's points. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was over 40 already and only by coincident, because my daughter had it too. I was able to finish high school but university (CS) turned out too much of a stretch, I basically just got too bored. After a couple of other jobs I ended up as a programmer anyway and I still like it. Here's what I learned:

Like Ironchef said: ADD can be a handicap at times, but at other occasions it can be a tremendous asset. Focus on the good parts and build your life around them! In my case, I found out that I like deadlines, they keep me focussed. Also I always got bored in every job after half a year or so, so now I'm a consultant and I'm happily switching companies all the time. So what is a weakness in one situation, can be a strength in another.

Exercising helps. I exercise (mildly) every morning and it helps during the day with keeping me motivated and focussed.

Have realistic goals. I tried a couple of times but learned the hard way that long term studies are not my thing, my attention will fade too quickly. So now I'm doing short online courses all the time, I love Coursera for instance.

geek_slop• 11 years ago

This is pretty scary. You just described me to a "T" (except the Evernote part - I use Onenote). I've been lucky enough however, to fall into jobs where I became the "tech lead" and as such, explore all sorts of new technologies and systems every day. But jeez, maybe I'm ADD. Appreciate the post!

cylinder• 11 years ago

It's me, too. I am craving a more "chaotic" multifaceted career and have been trying to make a change. But, who cares if some people created a term, ADD? Clearly, humans didn't evolve to sit in a chair in a quiet room doing the same thing all day. Do I have "ADD" when I'm running a massive event involving 200 participants with issues popping up all over the place, having to make quick decisions on my feet and managing people? Not even close. Do I have "ADD" when I'm sitting in an office doing rote paperwork tasks and answering the same email over and over again? Hell yes I do. And I don't see anything wrong with that. I see something wrong with those who think this is a "disorder." Which type of job sounds closer to how humans spent their days 50,000 years ago?

By the way, parent, you and I are probably all INTP or similar.

I'm done fighting it and being depressed about it and now embrace it. I'm glad I'm a generalist who would love nothing more than to try every job out there once and am hungry to learn about all the complex things out there.

i336_4• 11 years ago

I've personally only ever used various alternative therapies for my various issues (ADHD, OCD, Autism, a tiny bit of bipolar). I'm not "ready for life" yet (still working through other career showstoppers) but on multiple occasions I've talked to people who have experience with mental health and they haven't picked up on my issues after talking with them for a while.

Here's a shortlist of different things that seem to have helped. One of the usernames I sometimes use online - for example with gmail - is "asmqb7". ;P

- I switched from a "decent" fish oil to Nordic Naturals in 2012. The difference has been really good. Make sure the one you buy is a high-dose one - the only way you can make sure in a retail shop is to always check the back, without fail, to make sure the highest acting compounds are >=1g.

- I take CoQ10 for extra energy because my system is poorly balanced internally and requires more for its cogs to "turn over". Try yourself with different combinations of ubiquinone and ubidecarenone - my system prefers the latter, even though the former is understood to be the more powerful compound. Also don't be afraid to feed yourself a lot of it.

- Have a look at Alpha-lipoec acid. I'll admit I'm not 100% sure what it does but it definitely helps a lot.

- Are you getting enough salt? The medical consensus is "salt is bad for you!!11eleventyfour!"... they forgot to prefix the word table. It's table salt that's bad, other salt (like himalayan crystal salt) are better, and having a lot of salt per day is very good for you.

- See if you have PKU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylketonuria), the MTHFR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenetetrahydrofolate_redu...) gene mutation, or Pyrrole's disorder.

- Learn about Leaky Gut Syndrome. Most of the info you'll find is "this is the diet you need to follow"; take all that in your stride (apply it at your own discretion by all means though), I mostly reference this because the mechanics of the theories are good to know and understand.

This is all I can think of right now off the bat.

FWIW, I'm not the walking health encyclopedia, my Mum is :P Feel free to get in touch if you'd like more info.

i336_4• 11 years ago

Update: I wondered for a bit before I posted the above, about how I should word it and how much info I should share. I thought I'd go with a "post the most helpful info I've come across" approach, since I like trading high-quality information.

I'm interested to understand why people think the correct response to the info in my parent post is to downvote it (it's currently at -1 as I type this reply). It took me 9 years to learn what I know now, and this info has benefited my life greatly.

I will confess that I do still have a lot of issues with communication and social cues, but I cannot see any instance where I've behaved in a way that is behaviorally unacceptable and/or socially degrading, purported my view to be the only acceptable solution (far from it), or otherwise detracted from this conversation.

So I'm very confused :(

mod• 11 years ago

My guess is someone who doesn't believe in alternative medicine came along and gave you a downvote.

It's nothing to think too long on, people downvote for a multitude of reasons.

It has nothing to do with unacceptable social behavior, which, of course, you did not participate in.

slisla3• 11 years ago

Yes, second what the other poster said - don't take it personally. You went out on a limb and shared some personal experiences; though it may seem anecdotal, a bit of research backs up a lot of what you said even though it may not work the same for all people with all ADD types; I for one was surprised at the resulting calm I felt when I just drank basically water with about a tablespoon of pink salt mixed in; then I suddenly realized about every psychiatric drug on the market has "sodium" as part of its makeup and am starting to wonder if the drug companies are not just selling people high-priced salt with some narcotics mixed in for the price justification. But in conclusion, this is a forum on the net, don't try to understand let alone predict people's reactions - you should focus only on what you can control, which is planting the seeds.

codeonfire• 11 years ago

Caffeine and "forest therapy." Caffeine is only a stopgap. Impulsive feelings, I believe, are due to the body not getting something it wants like food, exercise, sleep, toilet, etc. Forest therapy is a two hour block of distraction free time for problem solving. The thing that's different is that the body needs to be doing something autonomously. Walking through the woods in a straight line for two hours is basically automatic. Why a forest? Line of sight is about 50 yards and sound is muffled. And it's pleasant.

nartz• 11 years ago

You probably just dont want to do whatever you are trying to do, simple as that. Seriously, ask yourself whether, deep down, this is something you really 'want' to do, or its something you feel you 'have' to do (school? work?). This is a completely normal feeling.

Now comes the hard part - doing what you 'have' to do.

Few steps

0a. Get excited about what you 'have' to do - whether it be the learning aspect, the mastery of your work (craftsmanship), the purpose of your work (helping users, making money, etc)

0b. Think about what you are going to do, and write down some granular steps (key)

1. Get yourself to start by hook or crook, and remove absolutely all distractions you can find (spend the time doing this). Start the first step you did in 0b.

2. Work for an hour at least.

3. Feel a sense of accomplishment, pat yourself on the back for completing some work. Look back on the work you completed. The goal is to start 'feeling' a positive sense about doing work you 'have' to do, which will make it easier in the future to do more.

Starting is always the hardest part like anything. Once you get into a routine, it becomes much easier. The hardest part is converting feelings of pain / 'have to do' into feelings of 'want to do' or curiosity.

jason_slack• 11 years ago

I have a lot of days where my mind just wanders to many, many things besides work tasks.

I get focused on work by keeping my diet in check (no junk food), just 1 coffee very early in the day and getting up and walking around a bit frequently, play with my dogs, pick up a book and read it for a few minutes.

Headphones also help me keep my head clear. I pump through them things that are conducive to my working and not getting distracted.

If I just can't focus, despite best efforts, I actually don't. I do something else until I am ready to focus again and then I give my work all of that attention. Sometimes this means working at night after the wife and kids are in bed because that is when my mind is back. Not everyone probably has this luxury as employers may not be this flexible.

cweagans• 11 years ago

Staying away from medication for a brain chemistry problem seems like self-sabotage to me. I'm not a fan of medication myself, but I'm about to go to the doctor to get a prescription. I'm in the same boat as you.

Based on the research I've done, Ritalin is more for short term focus boosts. You should try Concerta or Vyvanse. Those are more designed for a daily dose/longer term usage.

chubasco• 11 years ago

One thing that has always helped me is just simple meditation. It trains your brain to rein-in focus, and after you have done it for a while you can recover focus in just a few seconds if you find your mind wandering.

nobert• 11 years ago

The #1 biggest impact for me was working from home full time. I have been working from home for over 10 years now. It lets me control my environment -- most importantly I can minimize distractions. I also have two dogs who strongly encourage me to disconnect and clear my head (aka take them for a walk) a couple times a day.

slisla3• 11 years ago

Try nootropics, a good choline source (alpha-gpc), piracetam and aniracetam. Rather than make your condition a problem they'll help you "go with it" and leverage it. Also although I'm not sure of the exact mechanisms of action, whatever it is that gets "drained" in context switching they seem to supply in abundance and you'll be able to context switch all day long without resulting fatigue. They are not stimulants, so don't expect a coffee "rush" ... the effects are evident with mental work done at the end of the day. Another thing that may help you: get into tDCS and use the "positive" side on the left side of your brain with the negative on the right when you need to "focus sequentially" ... but just make sure to balance that out with the reverse say, on the weekends so as to not overly direct your brain in one direction at the expense of balance. Holosync has worked for me as well although I'm not sure of the reasons why, although there is much technical info that comes with the free e-book from the website. It's a bit expensive, but I believe there is a "trial" version on that site by those guys in IKEA land that have funny replies to law firms threatening legal action for copyright infringement. Also I highly recommend a workflowy subscription as a sort of "brian cache" of your random trains of thought; you will need this especially if you try the nootropic route because you will be able to work for many hours at will pausing only for sleep. Also I would recommend you sample "focus@will" they have an experimental ADD channel (maybe part of the free trial?) and there are actually settings based on type (mostly sounds like Skrillex type music?). Various binaural stuff you can find on YouTube for free and high quality goes a long way. The point is any one of these is good, together they are greater than the sum of the parts and your thing can not only be "managed" but actually developed and directed to your advantage. Learn to use your super power. Also I would highly recommend you meditate on the logic of what used to be a nice niche game for the Mac a decade ago: Serenity. Basically it was a 3D polynomial rendering game where you had to "float" but the more direct and oriented the mouse movement, the worse the controls got. You had to "slow down" your brain and move sloooowly, gradually, with much subtlety to gain success. Then you got calm and sleep and could go to bed. Contrast that with the fast, twitchy nature of modern ... everything - cartoons, video games, movies, commercials, music ... and ask yourself if it contributes to your situation if perhaps your brain is a bit more sensitive to such stimulation. Learn when it's useful and when you need to isolate yourself from such inputs so that they don't "tip you over." Good luck.

dwarman• 11 years ago

Mild medication and habits are my saviours.

Habits around when I sleep, wake, eat, and what I eat. Interruptions to habits result in drop-outs, things get forgotten watch, lunch bag, keys, appointments, ...).

Medicatio: be careful exploring what works nd what does not. Ritalin, Adderal, Concerta, are basically Speed, albeit our different brain chemistry reacts to it differently than neurotypical brains. Aderal puts me to sleep. COncerta turned me into an a-hole with an obsessive focus on coding. Three months of hyperfocus. I did an insane amount of coding, and it worked too, but ... Btw, if you use that phrase with your doctor, check his spelling. My record turned out to have "obsession with codeine" in it. Got it caught soon by my therapist and corrected OK, so hopefuly no harm done.

Ritalin is working, after a while spent varying dosage to find a sweet spot. It is good for that, fast acting, fast to clear out, and tiny dosage tablets at 5mg. My sweet spot is two a day, one starting work and one halfway through. At three, my wife complains I tap and grind my teeth too loudly.

Therapist. Alternitvely in ADHD cse know as Life Coach. My saving. I had spent 63 yers developing random baroque and unconsciou compensations to cover up my embarraassment t not even knowing what it was I would get accused of - normal social epecttion for example. I have time blindness - can't plan, don't anticipate, don't remember, or if I do there's no timestamp. It is so bad my compensation for that was to become very very good at "making it up as I go". Including in programming. No good for college, makes me rather useless for the typical line programmer job, but there are a few niches that really need it, where there are no existing patterns or known solutions, for example. As a result, a 50 year career doing stuff nobody else has done before. Always inventing. Almost allways - a few times when I was not doing that, ranging from boring to painfully hellish.

Other than that, what pretty much everybody else has said. For making money, you are best off finding work in which you can easily enter and enjoy hyperfocus. For us folks on this forum, that would probably be programming in some form.

I have been very lucky also in employers and cofounders who, while maybe not knowing about the ADHD (I didn't myself, after all, until recently), had enough confidence in my results to let me get there in my own way, displacement behaviours and all.

ashleyp• 11 years ago

Find something i'm incredibly passionate about. Then I hyperfocus and go for hours and LOVE IT. Medication interfears with my super productivity because it prevents me mega-hyperfocusing.

edabobojr• 11 years ago

I might be too late for this one, but:

Daily exercise To-do list for EVERYTHING. If it isn't on the list I don't get it done. Time-boxing and frequent breaks. Work a single task for 30 minutes. Then switch to something else or take a 5 minute break.

n_siddharth• 11 years ago

Wow, thanks for all the responses. I think I would like to share more of what troubles me the most. I usually back away when the task seems even slightly complex. For example, I need to try to join 2 collections in mongo and want to try out map-reduce on it and see how long it takes.. I am just postponing it although I know if I stay with it, I will probably get it done in an hour or two. My mind refuses to start anything that seems complex. I get overwhelemed and anxious and delay everything to the last minute and then work in panic mode and do a half-assed job sometimes. Even though I have evidence that when I just start and stay with the problem, I more often than not do it well, I can't seem to internalize this and repeat this. What do you do when you have to do something seemingly complex. I always have trouble breaking it down into smaller tasks unless I have someone to talk to.. then somehow it gets very easy.. I have found that when I work in a group or in pairs, I am way more effective and my speed goes up tremendously. So much so that others often need time to catch up to what I saying. What advice would you give for someone struggling to work on his own?

slisla3• 11 years ago

Try this book: One Small Step Can Change Your Life; basically the author is a cognitive psychologist who studied various business processes and came to the conclusion that the ones that were most effective were not necessarily the best, they just worked because they were put into actual practice ... because they were non-threatening. His research then led him to the following insight: big planning is perceived as a threat by the brain because in the past it meant 1 of 2 things: (1) no more food, gather the group and get ready to move or (2) some other group doesn't like us, there is going to be some armed conflict, gather the group and ... Basically "big picture planning" while necessary if engaged too long activates the "fight or flight" response and you get all agitated and can't concentrate and wind up doing nothing all day. In other words, it's not that you "have trouble breaking things into pieces" it's because you don't break things into pieces that you activate parts of your brain and nervous system that make it impossible for you to calmly focus on the only reality you control - little pieces. So he suggest getting going by sidestepping/bypassing the activation of your "big changes are coming along with danger" systems by sneaking by them with the teeny, tiniest thing you can imagine doing successfully. Don't make it a goal to finish this part of your project or code for 4 hours or whatever. Make it a goal to sit at the computer for five minutes, open up your environment and not waste time with facebook/hacker news/email for 5 minutes. That's it - don't code, don't plan, just open up environment and then walk away after five minutes and get a small treat - a glass of water or something. Then instead of being overwhelmed your brain will be stimulated but not "activated" ... kind of like in the middle of the bell curve - not too aroused ... and you'll think, "Well, that wasn't too bad, I guess I could actually do a little bit more." Come back and just say, "If I could work on a teeny tiny problem, not a whole lot, but something that's been keeping me back and if I finished it and it became a building block I never had to rebuild and could move forward to, what would that thing be - and work on only that for the day. Don't look at other stuff until that's over. If it gets too frustrating, walk away and then ask yourself, can you go at it again for 15 minutes without distractions? Work up to a pomodoro (30 minutes of work of which 5 are a break). In other words, you have to trick your brain and keep it "asleep" so as to not hyper-arouse it too quick. Teeny tiny problems. So small they're laughable. Almost an funny not to get them done. So doable it's almost beneath you. But string together a couple of thousand of those over a few months and you'll be very productive. But don't plan them. Find one, do it, see where that leads you, take the next step, focus only on that until you did it. Make it so small it's not possible to get distracted. So small it's not possible to get overwhelmed. Make your problem being underwhelmed, so underwhelmed you quiet your hyperactive mind down enough to let you actually get work done. There are no complex anythings. Just strings of simples, some strings longer than others, some strings connect to more strings, but everything is an individual bead and you can handle each and every bead. Can you make a cup of tea? Sure! Can you do it while contemplating your place in the universe, and the meaning of life? No, because you're using part of your brain that needs to shut down the tea making part. Just focus on putting water in the pot and lighting the flame. You can do it. Really there is no secret other than this. You may forget to do it, but deep down you know this to be reality. You even say it ("I can't seem to internalize this and repeat it.") You don't have to internalize it. Here's another trick: everybody falls of their paths all the time, then they have to "remember" what works and just repeat it. It's so simple it's boring and that's why we forget - because we get bored and want to forget it's that simple. But you seem to know this. Just be okay with falling off, get back and apply it again. Until you forget again. Then you'll remember you forgot and keep repeating this. You got this. That's for the by yourself thing. As for pairs or groups - stop fighting it and just pair up with someone with similar goals and workstyles.

macros• 11 years ago

I go for walks and let my mind wander aimlessly for an hour or so, heading back when the thoughts in my head finally start turning towards work related stuff and I want to engage with it.

I also tend to keep a few tasks on top of the stack and try to keep enough room before deadlines to let my self switch to something else when I feel blocked or unmotivated.

Also helps having a boss that is well aware of ADD tendencies and can work with them.

Ask HN: How do programmers deal with ADD?

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