throwaway_281

No it is not.

Then Ramayana and Mahabharata aren't scriptures, too.

Smritis are definitely scripture.

And yes, there were dissenters.

And no, not of only some Hindus, the casteism was systematic.

I have reletives in a small town, and my uncle remembers that in every wedding receptions and funerals brahmins ate first and no one else was allowed to eat together with them.

Only after brahmins had finished, people from other castes could begin eating.

This is Bengal, and only 50 years ago and less.

"Creamy layer" only applies to OBCs and not SCs.

SCs have no ceiling of income to qualify for benefits.

I know about casteism in other religions. But the scale is nowhere near to that of Hinduism.

And yes, even for the OBCs, it is very badly implemented.

Only people on salary (government or private) face restriction since they can't fake income. I know plenty business owners and farmer who are well above the ceiling but continue to take benefits.

OBC benefits are not much anyway. Because there are too many people in that class.

It is mentioned in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishads that brahmins were born from the head of the Purusha and the Sudras from His feet.

Dalits are even outside of these four varnas.

This person is spreading propaganda.

Read Manu Smriti, Yajnabalka Smriti, or Parashara Smriti.

You can find them online.

In Bhagavad Gita, there are no verses that directly say bad things about so-called lower castes, but liberation is offered to people "even if" the seeker is a woman, a son of a prostitute, or a "dog-eating lower caste".

The Hindu scriptures themselves are casteist and sexist.

The caste system, as per scriptures, is just a categorization of work that people do.

This is blatantly false. Can you cite me some?

Even the Lord Rama killed Shambuka because he wanted to learn the Vedas as a Sudra.

Another incident I don't remember from the Mahabharata where one person was keen for reaching brahminic status. And that was denied. And was said as an example.

there are innumerable instances in the scriptures when people have taken up jobs of other castes, as per situation demands.

Cite me two or three.

And please don't say Parshuram being a warrior or Viswamitra being a sage. Both were upper caste Brahmin or Kshatriya.

All religions are bad. Degree varies.

There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense

I have read many verses from Manu Smriti, Parashara Smriti, and Yajnabalka Smriti.

They are ripe with casteism.

In Vedas, too, it is mentioned that Sudras are created from the feet of Purusha, and Brahmins from the head.

And also, Mahabharata mentions that brahmins can't face capital punishment. The most that can be done is banishing them.

Indian scriptures are deeply casteist and sexist, too.

Hinduism itself should be blamed for casteism.

Even Buddha fought against casteism.

That would be impractical. And the results of this cannot be perceived now.

But I believe that more communities will seek to be the "lower castes" because there will be benefits.

And, as more and more people will be in the SCs, the benefits will not mean anything anymore becasue everyone will get equal opportunities.

And I am not talking purely speculatively. There were mass movements of certain communities for them to be in the OBCs. They were Unreserved before. Like the Patels in Gujarata, and Jats in Haryana. So, people actually wanted to go from "General" to "Other Backwards Class" to get benefits in employment and higher ed.

Before state elections, incumbent governments promise to communities that they will be included in the OBCs if they win.

In this way, the benefits do get diluted. When a lot of people get same benefits, they are not much of benefits anymore.

This has happened with OBCs.

If the same happens with SCs, then that will be interesting to watch.

And Dalit is not merely caste anymore. It is also people's identity. I would think that many would be opposed to leaving it behind.

I think the people from upper castes other than Brahmins will be quite eager to call themselves Brahmin. Although, not more than few. The race will be towards the bottom.

The people who actually need the help will suffer.

No not really.

In some cases the village might indicate one's caste. In most cases, it does not.

If two Indians are from the same region, they know the demographic of that region pretty well.

So, that might be revelatory. But this is only true for some regions in India where villages are segregated.

Most villages in India are not segregated, i.e. Brahmins, upper-caste (they call themselves that), general castes, Dalits live together. But the neighborhoods are often segregated. But they do go to the same schools.

But as you are not an Indian, whether the one being asked is a Brahmin or a Dalit, will not tell you his village name- simply because you will not know it.

And in megacities, people from every caste are there.

As someone from outside India, you can safely ask where someone is from. They will probably tell you- "Mumbai" or "a small village near Delhi". No risk there.

Never ever ask people their caste.

I would like non-Indian people to know that the caste problem is not uniformly distributed throughout India.

In cities like Kolkata, Chennai, and Mumbai- the problem is non-existent.

The problem is much more rampant in Northern parts of India. This region is the American south without the good parts.

This region ranks the highest in the country for foeticide of girl children. Because the society is deeply patriarchal.

Honor killing, i.e. killing your own daughter or sibling for marrying outside caste is rampant.

This region also votes in high numbers for divisive-policy holders.

In other regions of India, the problem is much less visible.

In Bengal, where I come from, I have never seen casteism. Inter-caste marriage is rampant. Yes, castiest assholes exist everywhere. But many don't care- or care only when it comes to marriage.

I belong neither to a so-called "upper caste" nor I am a Dalit.

Caste-based discrimination is minimal in here.

Ambedkar is a venerable intellectual even if you completely disregard his caste identity and fights for Dalits. As a non-Dalit, I have deep respects for him- just as an intellectual, a nerd.

What did away with caste mostly is colonialism. Colonialism attacks your way of living, and casteism is an Indian way of living. The places where British rule was consolidated, you will see much less casteism in those places.

Casteism is not a new problem. Buddha faught against it two millenias ago.

Do NOT listen to Hindus who say that casteism has nothing to do with Hinduism. Hindu scriptures such as Manu Smriti, Parashara Smriti, Yajnabalka Smriti are ripe with casteism.

Even in the Mahabharata, it is said that capital punishment or holding is not apt for a Brahmin criminal. The most that can be done is banishing them.

In Magadha Empire of the Mauryas, Kautilya suggests death penalty for Dalits who go to bed with a Brahmin woman. The opposite carries little punishment.

And many foreigners are wondering whether asking about one's village is risky. I will say that it depends.

In colonial strongholds, the villages are less segregated. And history takes place.

Bengal was a stronghold of Buddhism during the Pala Empire. The staunch Brahmin Sen kingdom brought Brahmins from other Indian places and sent them to each village to "save" the masses.

So, in a Bengali village, there are Brahmins as well as other people.

And also local identity. Suppose, there is a village called "Mohanpur" or "Krishnagunj"- nobcaste identity here. But if there's a village called "Mahargaon", you know that it consists of Mahar sub-caste. That gives the identity away.

It is also not true as many claim that most Brahmins do not wear threads. Only modern-minded, reformist kind of people give up thread. I have at least three Brahmin friends who gave up the thread. One of them is a Communist. So you get the picture!

There is also a modern form of casteism due to the affirmative action policy.

An SC person, no matter how rich or privileged, gets lucrative benefits. That draws hatred towards them. For example, to get in a Chemistry major course of a very prestigious college, an Unreserved caste person needed 94 in chemistry. But an SC person needed only 59 (out of hundred). That college is very expensive though. Frustrated mediocres of Unreserved caste hate on the reserved people for this. (The very good ones get in despite the reservation).

In government employment or higher education, an SC person gets five fold advantage-

1. Age relaxation for five or more years. Say, 25 is the ceiling for others, but 30 for SC.

2. Cutoff marks in qualifying test is much lower.

3. Eligibility is marked off at 60% in college/HS for others, but 45% for SC.

4. Number of attempts is uncapped or much higher.

5. Even if you get through reservation, your reservation again applies when promotion is sought.

All this, no matter how rich you are.

This irks people. I had no such issues since I never suffered from reservation personally. But I know people who have. E.g.- a friend could not qualify for medical school despite getting 500+/720 in the entrance, but a much richer SC person got in a very good one at 400+/720. The former would need 650+/720 to get in the same school.

This fuels modern casteism that I see in Bengal.

I absolutely abhor the idea of caste. And just like the person in the article, I am no longer a Hindu. I despise all systems where you are marked off at your birth. Became an athiest at 16, and gave up Hinduism at 19.

Many households do not care about casteism now.

Many are hopeful, that with younger generations, casteism will automatically die out. But I am not so hopeful. I regularly meet young casteists.

You should know that the Hindu Nationalistic BJP/RSS cabal has been trying very hard to get Dalit votes by calling them Hindus and forming a pseudo-unity against Muslims.

Mass converting out of Hinduism to Christianity, Buddhism, and even Islam is common to irk the Brahmin overlords of society.

You should also know that casteism is common in SC people and OBC (Other Backward Classes- a government term to classify people who are higher than Dalits in Hindu hierarchy but "lower" than upper castes). They do not like people marrying outside of their caste.

You should also know that casteism is designed rather than natural.

And these people in the SV are lucky. Their counterparts in North Indian villages suffer a much worse fate.

I will monitor this thread, and ask me questions if you want.