proxynoproxy

The fleet analogy doesn’t hold. I used the term “lockstep” for a reason. Fleets of cars are not in lockstep. A degraded fleet is worse than no fleet here, there is no 2 are down, 8 are up here.

A better yet strained analogy is 10 cars with different parts that are not interchangeable, work differently and need different drivers. Maintenance nightmare. Contrast with say, an Airline fleet all of the same type of plane, interchangeable parts and pilots qualified in that model.

Anyway, we should leave it here. This debate will be referenced in n years as other debates of in previous cycles on here. I am getting more concerned about physical threats after the recent incidents. I’m going to burn this identity now.

Don’t forget that opaque blockchains can have invisible inflation. Transparent blockchains will always be worth more, as the user can verify that inflation has not occurred. This applies to grin as much as xmr.

We don’t know exactly what happened between 0 and 1, but it’s not really that important, other than it’s “externally verifiable hash”, eg PoW.

Real Return”. I think the real return is -40% since PoS? And falling? The illusion of yield. It’s the same nonsense they use to get people to buy treasuries with yields under inflation. It’s Wall Street tricks dressed up as yield. That’s all that’s been reinvented here. It’s not some grand hack to bypass “waste”.

I agree going after the stakers won’t shut it down. But going after the central devs? Remember liberty reserve? Ethereum is just LR, and Solana is LR2 and Sui is LR3?

And just to think of the energy that you wasted arguing this tired point! It’s about trust.

You don’t see it has value because you trust in authority. For those that don’t trust in authority, they need a proof of work to prove that someone else… did the work. Dont trust, verify.

That no-trust, verify model is valuable to me. It’s a one way valve. Super useful when you can’t trust anyone around you.

Bitcoin is money for enemies. If my enemy and I can transact in an adversarial environment without relying on some subjective truth, this is valuable.

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1611#msg1611

It’s not an apples to apples comparison — I was there in 2013 with the 0.4/0.5 bdb issue happened, it was a split (not downtime), and the community went with 0.4 until 0.5 was patched. The community was much smaller. There was no downtime. There could have been loses on the centralized exchange side for the few hours of ambiguity. maybe there was 1 public report of loss at the time. This is the lesson that ETH people were not around for. More moving parts; more failure cases. More client, more moving parts.

Satoshi spent real resources to mine, yes they were negligible at the time, but it was real resources. I recall genesis block took 6 days of hashing at difficulty 1. Vitalik just hit print.

BitAxe is a toy, yes. But my point was that people are mining sats. You just don’t see the value in the hardware and energy outlay for integrity. That’s the disconnect. PoS has no real world binding, and so must rely on humans for integrity. Bitcoin… offers an alternative. ETH PoS is more of the same. I don’t trust humans, you trust them too much.

Yes, It’s been performing badly since PoS.

Ugh. Satoshi wrote about this. Lockstep. Single Client = Good. multiple client = menace. I’m ignoring Knots because it’s in the menace category.

Ethereum ignored this wise wisdom and ended up with 5. It’s no good, but in up is down land aka ETH, it’s celebrated. You can’t convince me otherwise.

I was also there. Seemed like a scam, like all those other premined coins that were popular when ETH launched. I stand by that assessment in 2025.

I guess technically if you had traded Bitcoin for ETH at launch and then back to Bitcoin before merge you could have made more sats than holding the sats alone. It’s true of many low cap tokens. But for anyone touching ETH since the merge, they have been burned.

We can marvel at the innovations introduced by the tech, yeah, contracts are interesting (yet still don’t seem to have a use case beyond accounting and tokens.. [primarily fiat stables]).

Cherry-picked timeline… It’s reality dude! It’s the timeline that reflects reality in 2025.

Of course if you imagine a reality where ETH PoS was the best and the coin was worth $100k/ETH post merge you could say that. But that’s fantasy. It’s worth less per unit than when it was POW.

Updated to 60%. Your right I should have verified this.

And yet, every ETH is worth much less sats today then when it was PoW. Remember the flipping, lol.

All the yields in the world don’t mean nothin’ if the value of the capital is not preserved. To say nothing about “security”. I would argue the complexity introduced by the beacon chain mechanism reduces security… but it’s debatable.

You can keep beating the failing PoS drum or you can actually preserve your capital where other grubby humans can’t mess with it. I know what I’m doing.

It’s not wrong, you just don’t like it, don’t get it. It’s ok; you will eventually. Everyone does.

In the scenario I trust the later more than the former! And that’s fine, we have different perspectives.

You wanna shut us down, I want you to ignore us, See the difference?

60% of eth was printed from nothing and sold to insiders on day for Bitcoin!

It’s all awful and inexcusable!

(Edit for 60%)

Ethereum printed 60% of its tokens day one; sold to insiders. and then mined 40% for the illusion of decentralization.

Close enough. Premined scam. (Edit for 60%)

It’s good that you have identified that PoS and the global fiat financial system are pretty much the same microcosmic scam.

https://bitaxe.org/ I guess all those plebs are just imagining mining sats at the edge. Mining isn’t just farms. And farms are not pools. You are regurgitating ETH propaganda that doesn’t match reality.

what you are missing is that PoS coins are printed from nothing. The original sin. From nothing. Worth nothing. PoS is a Ponzi to dump worthless tokens on you. You can’t escape that.

PoS trends to zero. I can’t believe we are still arguing this with >2T market cap for BTC and ETH has actually shrunk since it moved to PoS. It’s going in the wrong direction…

“I hate TikTok and all those ByteDance Data Centers must be shut down because it’s a waste and I don’t like it”.

Nah you just enrich the founders who did nothing except print all the tokens out of nothing. PoS is worthless, it came from nothing, it is worth nothing.

You don’t really get how mining pools work. It’s not a monolithic thing. well OK MARA is a proprietary pool, but the rest are made up of people contributing hash. If a state actor took over a pool, we could spin up another quick smart. Hash is fluid. Try that with slashing and stake lockups and others nonsense PoS invents to do a worse job.

No, you need to buy from an insider. Who bought from an insider. Who bought from an insider. Who printed it from nothing.

Meanwhile PoW needs real work. Real resources. Real effort. PoS is a Ponzi

It’s more that waste energy allows one way process, which is valuable. Valves. Diodes. One doesn’t complain about waste heat from computation in general, if that computation has value.

And the second part - you won’t understand because you prefer authority to set monetary policy. The history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust.

Haha, no. Like in sui where the validators halted and froze? Or Solana where dishonest stalkers rigged the delegated staking auction and stole from other stakers?

What you are repeating is the same PoS nonsense. Get out of here. Eth drove off a cliff when it went PoS. It’s going to zero vs Bitcoin, like every other PoS (or alt) coin. It’s all just PoS cartels. Meanwhile, many people have their “edge” BitAxe earning Bitcoin.

nb: PoS can never really be fairly distributed. It’s printed out of nothing to enrich the founders. The billionaires were dumping Sol on retail last cycle. It can never escape this. Eth was “premined”.

I don’t think this is anything like past cycles. Blackrock and Nations be playing this time. Stack accordingly.

Because it’s not external referencing. It’s all on chain, and any external price of tokens is all in humans minds. Of course, true of Bitcoin too. However, energy is the external thing that links time and computation to the chain data. Really, Bitcoin PoW is an amazing discovery. Proof of Stake is self serving self referencial database.

Bitcoin through Proof of Work is a global computational one-way valve for a ledger, which enables a fuzzy decentralized time, by which we can enforce digital scarcity! The ledger record becomes the digital commodity. What an age!

Proof of stake ends up as chain where 26 dudes in discord can freeze accounts, lock the chain, etc, etc. it’s not really different than 26 banks doing the same. And really you have to ask yourself about the purpose of any of this if you are trading 26 banks for 26 dudes in a discord.

Only the one big pow coin matters tho. Turns out, PoS coins are worthless!

I also dislike energy frugality arguments. They come from a Luddite place. A civilization is defined by its energy usage. Let’s be advanced civilization.

Sam’s iris harvesting plan will continue as long as the incentive, worldcoin, holds value.

There were coins printed out of nothing by a guy called Sam backing an enterprise last time too.

And that’s the good guys. The bad guys won’t stop scanning if you ask them nicely either.

Get rid of the non CSPRNG function. Someone will use this to store coin and get robbed. Non-csprng has no place in this tool

I wouldn’t call this “incoherent” rather, I propose the terminology “vendor subvertable”.

Yes, any time a vendor of software has any direct update capabilities, a targeted update can bypass the encryption provided by some software.

In practice, we tend to delegate to a 3rd party like an OS distribution packager, where there is a delay between vendor releases and packaging. Where it can be discovered.

Another good reason to use open source for core cryptography libraries and any code a vendor supplies should be open and repeatably built also.

I agree in part, but nobody legit is paying $200/month to use signal or other free secure private messengers. If it was a free platform I can see innocents getting caught, but considering it was sold by criminals, to criminals for a criminal fee — I think they were mostly correct.