kennykartman

I really don’t see how you could find the community toxic unless you take everything they want to do differently from other languages (which may come along with some criticism - explicit or implicit) as some kind of toxic negativity?

You are right: I generalized way too much in my comment. I do not mean that all Zig communities are toxic, but at least the ones I read/participate into.

IIUC Fil-C does not allow to freely write safe assembly language as well, right? From the inlineasm page, they say

Parsing and analyzing the assembly. If it contains memory accesses, control flow, or anything we don't recognize, we reject it.

...But I'm no fil-c user nor expert so correct me if I'm wrong!

By the way

Zig will become one of the only toolchains capable of producing actually memory safe executables

there's a whole class of GC languages that can do that

Sure, the point makes sense but if that's the sole point I think communication is quite bad. Fil-C is memory-safe only if the whole stack is compiled with Fil-C: this does not hold for Rust which does not require to recompile every dependency. Some dependencies cannot even be recompiled.

So it turns out this is not "unlike Rust", it's pretty much the same thing: if everything was built in safe rust, then it would be as safe. The communication of this point is not great at all, so much so I don't think it's purely informative.

Zig main dev proposes to introduce a Fil-C like compilation mode to make zig safe: it's only natural to mention how that's different from Rust, right? What about all the other languages, Andrew?

I'm tired to see zig head people trying to diss Rust whenever they can. It's annoying for people that enjoy both languages and it's really a hint of how toxic the zig community is.

Typically I just want to isolate the agent disallowing it from accessing other parts of the filesystem. Using a different user might be enough, but I typically use [bubblewrap](https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap).

Honestly, I don't think the EU problem is taxation. Really, there's a long list of things that have higher precedence over that, for example, not being so immigration-adverse.

Ah, sorry if "parents spending more time with their kids" is a too extreme and communist view.

Ok with that. So yes, I stand by my stance: looking at test is enough. We can debate whether when tests can be considered complete enough.

I think you and I don't share what is a "test". Are you thinking about unit tests? I'm thinking about unit tests, smoke tests, integration tests, e2e tests, functional tests, manual QA tests and probably even "the-product-works-as-expected-as-I-can-see-from-the-amazon-reviews-of-our-clients tests".

I agree with your point of view in general, but "having tests" doesn't mean "having great tests". If I rewrite my code and give the binary to our clients and they don't see any difference or bug, well, that means the rewrite passed the ultimate test. In fact, the percentage of our clients that care about implementation details (such as PL) is precisely 0%.

I don't think that from my comment anyone can infer that I'm opposed to reducing general taxation. I'm, in fact, in favor in increasing taxes for who owns too much, not against reducing taxes to population with lower income.

If any EU government people are reading this, I'd like to send you a short message:

Please stop thinking about the kids on the internet. But here's a brief list of things you must work on with higher urgency:

- taxing more large corporations,

- taxing more ultra-rich people,

- funding EU-made (open source) tech and infrastructure,

- let parents spend more time with their kids so they can actually protect their offspring and keep them safe from predators, more than any stupid law you think you can devise can do,

- more trains.

I'm so happy about this. Really. I cannot overstate how much important the internet archive is for all of us.

That's a fun point. I honestly don't think it will happen in 3 years, but I think it will surely doable in 10.

More interestingly: will we need to care about the code at all, at that point?

One should care about tests more than how code was coded.

If I had a codebase with lots of tests and asked someone else to rewrite it to another language passing the same test suite, I honestly wouldn't expect a great quality job.

I say this because it happened 3 times in the company I work for: we conducted experiments by tasking different companies to rewrite the same code in another language. All of them passed (most) of the tests, but code quality was low. If the job is a black box, rely on the I/O to determine quality, not the inner workings.

Sadly, yes. I feel too much "violence" on both parts.

Honestly, Zig community seems the most bitter for whatever reason, while on the Rust side it seems to me that are simply overstating how great the language is and are pushy in trying to convince the other of their ideas.

If this goes through, we can all take SWE lessons from it, but I think the communities will suffer.

Nobody knows. Here's my two cents.

Zig is a very interesting LOW level language, but honestly I think it should be considered for what it is: a better C. I don't think it fits for anything that someone would have written in C++, Java, Haskell or C#. Instead, Rust is competitive with all of these languages when it comes to safety, abstractions and speed. And also C and Zig itself.

Zig has a couple very interesting ideas that make it stand out: comptime and the zig build system.

Alas, Zig is still far from being stable. Rust came out to the public in 2012 and became stable (1.0) in 2015. Zig came out to the public in 2016, and it's 10 years now and someone says it's still years away from 1.0.

So, while rust took 3 years of public development to become stable, zig is taking 10/15 years. I love the language, but TBH I don't see a great future ahead, especially with LLMs advancements that can use safer languages to do the same work. There's no point in risking more memory bugs when the effort for writing code is the same.

Honestly, I don't know. I think it's because of frustration, but the community attitude is part of it. I experienced first hand people frustrated with Rust moving to Zig and finding other people to pick onto Rust and finding fertile ground (especially if moderators and heads of the community let this kind of behavior continue).

Thank you, Jarred, for your work. It’s unfortunate to see so much backlash toward legitimate research. Bun is often seen by some as “the flagship project for zig” - especially among those frustrated with rust who want zig to "win over rust" for whatever reasons. At the end of the day, you should do what makes the most sense for your project and your circumstances, regardless of the language or tools involved.

Personally, I find this experiment interesting and I’m curious to see how it develops. Writing idiomatic rust requires a shift in mindset, so it’ll be worth watching how well LLMs adapt to that over time.

They're banning all AI though, so it looks pretty much anti-AI to me.

Nice. This is the kind of technology we need when we'll have to fight back against AI overlords.

Yep, war is the shittiest of things and rarely it is described completely for what it is. Humans following orders are well known to be ruthless and humans in power places are known to abuse their power. Add this to brainwashing and religious propaganda and beliefs, makes this kind of war a particularly shitty one.

Be careful with difftastic, because it has at least one severe bug involving python that has been present for a long time: https://github.com/Wilfred/difftastic/issues/587

I dream of the day in which there is no need to pass by JS and Wasm can do all the job by itself. Meanwhile, we are stuck.

dozens of heavily armed settlers under the protection of the police and the army invaded Ras al-‘Ain and stole at least a thousand, and possibly as many as 1,500, of the villagers’ sheep and goats

This is the issue: Israeli settlers are getting weapons and money from the government (backed by the US) to systematically infringe human rights, in particular of Palestinian families.

People should stop to think that Israel is a democratic and civil country: it is not. Proofs are plenty.

Because Zig is the future, Rust has clearly failed and C is simply obsolete in 2026. The rest doesn't even matter.

That's true! But I was amazed to see makepad.nl's performances. That's written in Rust and I saw one of the authors, Rik, explain how they make it so fast to build. Praiseworthy job that shows that with care one can go far.

Sure, I agree! I did not mean to see better results because LLMs improved significantly in their visual-spatial reasoning, but simply because I expected more people drawing SVGs of pelicans on bikes and having more LLMs ingesting them. This is what I find a bit surprising.

Ah ah I was curious about that! I wonder if (when? if not already) some company is using some version of this in their training set. I'm still impressed by the fact that this benchmark has been out for so long and yet produce this kind of (ugly?) results.

Again, just for the sake of the discussion: Iran banned starlink, people are getting terminals (BTW, I'm happy they managed to). Starlink is still providing the service in the area although they are aware it's illegal and people can be behaded for owning a starlink terminal. But hey, Iran and USA are enemies. The fact that Iran is the only country where Starlink is active even if it's NOT approved is food for thought. There are other countries, where there are regimes that control communications, where Starlink is not active.