gedpeck

I didn’t call anyone a Nazi. Trump is not a Nazi. Most of his supporters aren’t either. I did use Nazi Germany as an example of societal views changing to the extreme.

Sexual abuse. Not rape. The distinction is extremely important. Now that I know he is only a sexual abuser and not a rapist I support him. A sexual abuser who cheats charities, is a convicted felon, who accepts $30 billion dollar crypto coin bribes is worth supporting. But not a raping one. I retract my complaints against Trump.

I will enjoy the next 4 years. I voted for Trump in 2016. I want the one who will do the most damage to the U.S. to be in power. I won’t suffer. I’m well off.

Cherry picked facts? Ha. Being a rapist is a cherry picked fact?

The difference between me and you is that I consistently apply my morals and ethics. I don’t support rapists and bribe takers for President. I didn’t support Clinton when it became clear what he did and I don’t support Trump. Have a higher standard for yourself. Don’t support bad people.

I do judge George W. Bush for the deaths he caused. Obama too.

Clearly, they can be convinced of something, just not anything you or I might consider good.

Yeah. I should have been more precise.

The country deserves what is going to happen.

The one who rapes and lusts after his daughter is the one who has issues. Well, him and the people who support him. Never thought I’d live to see Republicans, the so called party of family values, support such an asshole. You should get some ethics and apply them consistently.

It’s mostly about willful acts of violence against innocents. This might be a nuance that is too subtle though. Bad acts and bad actors should be called out. Russia is the bad actor in the Ukrainian invasion. Hamas and IDF are bad actors in their conflict.

Which of the accusations are wrong? Do you deny these well documented things?

It’s not childish to call bad people bad.

Care to point out where I said this or implied this? I’m opposed to gay marriage.

EDIT: I’m not really opposed to gay marriage. But I never said anything about my views on gay marriage or anything inconsistent with the view that gay marriage is wrong.

EDIT: I don’t consider people who oppose gay marriage to be bad people. I consider people who support and vote for a known felon, rapist, theif, and bribe taker to be terrible.

I didn’t compare anything to Nazi Germany. I gave Nazi Germany as an example of how what is socially acceptable can drastically change in a short period of time.

I apologize. He was found liable for sexual abuse, battery and defamation. These distinctions are extremely important. He’s not quite as bad as I made him out to be. What about him calling his daughter a nice piece of ass? The other stuff?

I have no desire to change anyone’s mind about their political views. Anyone who supports a known rapist and felon and who openly takes bribes can not be convinced of anything. I don’t engage in political discussions with such people. There is no consistency in their beliefs so no meaningful discusion can be had.

But if someone acts inhuman then it’s justified. Russia’s war crimes are well documented and they started the war. When you are the baddies then expect to be called so.

You cannot talk about Trump without putting him in context.

I can. I did. It doesn’t need context. It’s well documented the things he did.

The fact is, the reason why we have Trump for President again…

This is not an established fact.

… Harris fit that bill.

Harris’ moral and ethical failings are nothing compared to Trump. You can do what I did and not vote and not support either candidate. Stand up for truth and righteousness and stop trying to justify your support for a person as shitty as Trump. It’s a choice to defend shitty behavior. When you do so you end up smelling like shit.

according to gedpeck, nearly everyone in Africa and Asia, and every single practicing Muslim, is a horrible person...

I said no such thing.

Great. We are in agreement that a person who engages in odious behavior is not worthy of support. As such Donald Trump is not worthy of support.

If you want to discuss Biden then start another thread. This one is about Donald Trump.

Biden hasn’t been convicted of felonies. He’s not an adjudicated rapist. He doesn’t refer to his daughter as a nice piece of ass. He isn’t banned from running a charity. He hasn’t bribed any porn stars. He hasn’t accepted $30 billion in bribes. He hasn’t taken secret documents to illegally keep in his bathroom. He hasn’t met with Putin alone without an interpreter or any other U.S. official present. He hasn’t made fun of a reporter’s disability. He didn’t appoint his son-in-law to be an advisor who then accepted bribes from Saudi Arabia. He hasn’t engaged in Twitter feuds with 15 year old kids from Sweden. He didn’t threaten to withhold disaster aid to states that didn’t vote for him.

Nothing I’ve said against Trump is about his politics. He, as a person, is narcissistic, self centered, selfish, boorish, infantile, incurious, lustful, and greedy. He’s a despicable person and those who support him are terrible people.

it is that honesty and consistency isn't required to get insecure people to follow you blindly.

I’m going to use this. Well stated.

What constitutes "harm"? Is hurting someone's feelings harm? Is misinformation harm? How do you determine intention? To what extent does intention matter? How do circumstances impact the answers to these questions?

I know the answers to these questions…for me. Each person decides for themselves where the lines are drawn. It has always been this way.

My personal view is as follows. American society has reached a point of no return. Something has to give before a new equilibrium has been found. As an extreme example look to Nazi Germany. The repugnant views that were normal in 1939 Germany weren’t normal in 1960 Germany. A similar (though far less extreme) change will happen in the U.S.

I have no desire to change anyone’s mind about their political views. Anyone who supports a known rapist and felon and who openly takes bribes can not be convinced of anything. I don’t engage in political discussions with such people. There is no consistency in their beliefs so no meaningful discusion can be had.

For me, my desire is secession. The country needs to beak up. This is an extreme view but will likely be increasingly held by people with similar political beliefs as mine.

"over 50% of the country i live in are irredeemably terrible people"

A large majority of the people did not vote for Donald Trump.

but my guess is you don't actually think they're so terrible,

People who support Donald Trump are, in general, terrible people. They aren’t evil people doing evil things so why would I have an obligation to take action against them?

It is a fact of life that we all must live amongst people who we think are terrible human beings. Of course I haven’t the slightest idea what a person’s views are for almost everyone I interact with. I give everyone the assumption that they deserve respect until proven otherwise.

Given the context of the thread it’s ironic that you don’t seem to understand what it means to give the assumption of respect to people. I think you edited your disparaging remarks to me. It was hilarious to read those remarks given the context of the discussion at hand. Feel free to put them back. I don’t mind them.

… justified going to against individuals you disagree with?

I don’t do anything at this time. But I understand why there are those who do have vitriol for supporters of a rapist who lusts after his own daughter. There are times when a nation’s society fractures as the social cohesion evaporates. We are beginning to be in such a time in the U.S. Well, it appears that way to me. Only time will tell.

Herein lies the crux of the matter in my view. The jump from 2 to 3. When Bob Dole ran for President I wholeheartedly agreed with the position about being respectful to those you disagree with. Politics was still normal in the U.S. at that time. But now we in the U.S. elected a known rapist. A felon and a con man. He can’t run a charity in New York due to his misdeeds. He lusts after his own daughter. We have entered into an era where supporters of one party’s President deserve the assumption of being terrible people.

Now obviously there are many people who disagree with the above. But this is how I see things and I act accordingly. The call for civility comes from those who hold terrible beliefs. We are well into the Paradox of Tolerance situation in the U.S.

In normal times I would agree with you. At present in the U.S. I’d not agree with this sentiment. People who support electing a known racist, thief, con man, and felon are deserving of ridicule and ire. They don’t deserve respect in my opinion.

When the politics of a nation shift so far in one direction we get into a situation where supporters of that shift don’t deserve respect. Stalinist Soviet Union is an extreme example of this.

Most definitely. Each person decides for themselves where the lines are drawn.

Great harm then? I’m not morally obligated to to treat Putin with respect. Most people agree that there are people who are so reprehensible that they don’t deserve respect.

There are other options. Think about it a bit. Nonprofit insurance companies for one. National healthcare is another option that does not require communism. Don’t be a lazy thinker.

Be curious. Be courteous and respectful. Be a normal, nice goddamn human to human across the table from you.

In general I wholeheartedly agree. But if the person in front of you has done or advocated for things that cause harm or is themself a horrible person then I disagree.

… the law that tramples free speech is upheld by the court

This law does not trample free speech. Your view of what free speech means as it pertains to U.S. law is wrong.

Then your reply above to me was a red herring and as such a bad faith reply.

The American system does a good job of getting services delivered to customers;

Therein lies one of the reasons the U.S. system is immoral. There are lots of people who can’t afford to be customers.

It is immoral to profit from denying someone healthcare.

I take it then that we agree that for profit health insurance companies profiting from denying care is immoral. That there are other immoral actors is not germane to the discussion.