The Use of Name Spaces in Plan 9 (1993)

http://www2.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~mint/Library/Plan9/names.html

by vezzy-fnord • 11 years ago

63 28 11 years ago

www2.informatik.hu-berlin.de

f2f• 11 years ago

this paper still reads revolutionary now, but imagine how it felt to read it in 1993 and compare it with your average "system" either at home or at work.

windows for workgroups was released the same year, while we were struggling to set up IPX networks to play doom between two machines at home...

Sanddancer• 11 years ago

The early 90s had a lot of interesting OS theory work going on. Andrew S Tanenbaum, of Minix fame, was working on Amoeba at the same time, which also was designed to present network transparency to the end user. Sprite was another, which also offered things like seamless process migration.

But, it all stopped. Research budgets dried up, the computer got bigger than any one OS team could handle, and some OS out of Finland came in and scooped up all the mindshare. Since then, we've been stumbling in the dark, using scant shards of the tools they made, like python, with overall systems not much better than what they have. Lispers talk of the AI Winter, but the ongoing OS Winter is far, far worse in terms of the absolute stagnation of an entire force of society. We really do deserve better than what we have now.

JoachimS• 11 years ago

My exact sentiment.

Earlier this week there was a thread on HN about Taos, another very interesting OS from that time.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9806607

Today, with multicore, heterogeneous cores, a huge range of communication types, IoT and the physical world becoming connected from the tiniest of pieces up to the largest structures, there should be ample areas where OS research could find interesting challenges and solve problems.

The most interesting I've seen in a few years is the library OS work from MSR. But coming from Oberon, the most interesting feat was doing it to Windows and get it to work. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to become part of Windows.

To be fair though, the amount of virtualization tech developed the last decade could be perceived as OS related.

One professor I met once claimed that the Mach OS, micro kernels was the bane of OS research. Suddenly there was an OS easy enough to work on for a Phd to test implement a feature and get a degree.

pjmlp2• 11 years ago

That is why I appreciate Microsoft's work with WinRT, Singularity, Barrelfish, Drawbridge.

The unikernels work going on.

Android's Java userland.

Apple's hybrid approach with containers.

This is one of the topics I actually agree with Rob Pike. UNIX is past its due date. There is so much to explore, specially since POSIX just perpetuates C insecurity model.

thisrod• 11 years ago

Imagine what might happen if HN spent as much time maintaining Plan 9 as we spend talking about it.

colordrops• 11 years ago

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I think that's because there were two mentions of Plan 9 in one day. Otherwise, we only see it every few days or so.

vezzy-fnord3• 11 years ago

I was inspired by one of the users' puzzlement over Plan 9 over at the Scheme 9 interpreter thread to post this paper, since it explains the core concept of per-process namespaces.

And since no one else had done so before, bafflingly.

Also keep in mind that Plan 9 has involved significantly since the publication date. 8 1/2 and WORM have been superseded by rio and Venti, the 9P protocol is a bit more extensive, ndb and /net plus the auth subsystem have become more prominent since then, etc.

eatonphil2• 11 years ago

I've been reading about Plan 9 lately but I am still missing why exactly (or more-or-less) Plan 9 (and Research Unix, similarly) fell out? From what I've read it seems like the lack of ubiquity forced the Plan 9 guys out of Plan 9 and back into Ubuntu or OpenBSD. From their discussions of rc, etc it seemed like the lack of users caused them to move away from it until it just completely fell apart... But I'm not sure?

And where is Plan 9 now? If I want to get involved should I look into 9front? Inferno? Or this guys github mirror [0] because the Plan 9 website is down?

I understand these are some smart guys, but the cat-v website makes a ton of divisive statements and "leaves it as an exercise to the reader" to figure out why they hold these views. The trolling isn't awful, but in general, I'm having a really tough time fighting my way into the Plan 9 circle.

How have you dealt with this? Aside from my initial (more historical) question, any suggestions for getting started? Is it even worth getting familiar with Plan 9 or rc or acme or sam or the plethora of ported tools? Or should I just wait until Russ Cox and Rob Pike come up with a production-ready OS?

No disrespect meant, just have a lot of questions.

[0] https://github.com/0intro/plan9

ori_b• 11 years ago

http://9front.org/ is the most actively developed fork, and is the most likely to work on your hardware. They don't take themselves seriously, though, and are perfectly fine with being niche, so they don't put much effort into being welcoming to people who don't do their reading.

marchelzo• 11 years ago

I got curious when you said they don't take themselves seriously. There are some pretty funny files in the /lib/ directory of their source tree. https://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/0d00dd23c9db/lib/... for example.

sleepydog• 11 years ago

Plan 9 didn't catch on for a lot of reasons -- bad licensing, bad marketing, being too different from unix which was "good enough", etc. The fact that your average nix sysadmin, who can manage pretty well between BSDs, Linux, AIX, HPUX, etc, would be utterly puzzled when given the task of managing a plan 9 system, probably discouraged a lot of businesses from adopting it.

If you are not married to your current editor of choice, give Acme a try -- it's quite different, but I've been using it as my primary for about 5 years (I write mostly write C, Bash, Python, Go, Puppet. Hesitant to use it for more editor-dependent languages like Java and C#), and I've been very happy with it. It's available for Linux, BSD, and OS X as part of plan9port. For me, secret to being productive in Acme was learning to write my own plumbing rules, which let you turn plain text into hyperlinks based on pattern matching.

Plan 9 does not have to be a purely historical endeavor; If you manage to write a 9P file server, you can actually mount it on other OSes, either through the native 9P support in the Linux kernel, or through a wrapper program like 9pfuse. For example, I recently saw a 9P file server that turned jira into a file tree of tickets that you could edit with a text editor.

616c• 11 years ago

With the garbage ticketing systems I am used to, JIRA as a file tree, 9p or FUSE on Linux/OSX, has me almost aroused.

People wonder why I cannot do things fast in their GUI world, and then I show them a bash script that obviates 10x per page operation filing a ticket, and then they do not understand, but respect my annoyance at the "user-friendly" way.

EdiX2• 11 years ago

From what I've read it seems like the lack of ubiquity forced the Plan 9 guys out of Plan 9 and back into Ubuntu or OpenBSD

That's… interestingly ahistorical. No one was force back from plan 9 to ubuntu or openbsd because when plan 9 "lost" neither existed. Plan 9's window of opportunity existed in the early '90s when linux and the web weren't firmly established.

Unfortunately Plan 9 wasn't released with a proper license until 2002, at that point Linux had already won the war (for half a decade), the problems that plan 9 solved had been solved in other ways (perhaps less elegantly) by the rest of the world, plan 9 lagged behind on a number of important areas and bell labs were being downsized significantly.

eatonphil2• 11 years ago

I said this after reading this conversation [0] on comp.os.plan9 about rc. Though it does appear that I misread that as well. However, my point was that it seems like the shift away from Plan 9 or 9front or whatever took place in the late 2000s when they moved to Ubuntu or OpenBSD due to work concerns because it was easier to support the masses. (I cannot find the conversation on comp.os.plan9 to support that though.)

[0] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.plan9/g2qBh0...

mhw2• 11 years ago

I think at least part of the problem was the hardware required to run a more complete installation where you'd start to see the benefits of the approach. As the paper outlines, a Plan 9 network needed at least a CPU server, file server and one or more terminals, plus possibly an authentication server (the CPU server might have been able to do this too). I seem to remember that the installation instructions assumed you'd have this kind of hardware available too, so getting a working system was quite an investment.

The file server was somewhat specialised too: the Plan 9 one used an optical WORM jukebox to provide its long-term storage. If you didn't have one of those you could simulate it with disk storage, but there's a cost trade off there.

Without this investment in hardware it was like trying to understand how NFS or web infrastructure works with only a single machine to work with.

In some ways it's similar to the obstacles that hobbyists face investigating the Hadoop ecosystem today: the hardware required to build a realistic installation on which to experiment is quite costly. With Hadoop you can use virtual machines and/or cloud hosting to try things out. When Plan 9 came out you didn't have that option so you needed to assemble physical hardware yourself.

xiaq• 11 years ago

As the paper outlines, a Plan 9 network needed at least a CPU server, file server and one or more terminals, plus possibly an authentication server (the CPU server might have been able to do this too).

... which can just be run on the same machine.

Without this investment in hardware it was like trying to understand how NFS or web infrastructure works with only a single machine to work with.

Network transparency is an important feature, but not the only one. You are saying running X makes no sense because your X server and client are on the same machine.

jlarocco• 11 years ago

From what I've read it seems like the lack of ubiquity forced the Plan 9 guys out of Plan 9 and back into Ubuntu or OpenBSD.

Sigh. Really?

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

Anyone that likes Plan 9 should also look at Amoeba [1] and Globe [2]. Amoeba did a lot of interesting work that could be considered when doing a modern, Plan9-like effort. Globe did for WAN's what Amoeba tried to do for LAN's. I had hoped solutions like Globe would get more traction given Globe applications would be way better than upcoming Web applications. Globe team even proved it by doing Web on top of their own stuff: doing Web better than Web lol. Unfortunately, the mainstream led us down a path resulting in trying to accelerate Web applications powered by protocols from time-sharing days on monolithic UNIX and Windows OS's. A little less fun...

[1] http://www.cs.vu.nl/pub/amoeba/amoeba.html

[2] http://www.cs.vu.nl/~philip/globe/

vezzy-fnord3• 11 years ago

Amoeba indeed had cool ideas, like most things A.S. Tanenbaum has worked on, but I always thought Sprite was more novel.

I haven't looked into Amoeba too deeply, I must admit, but other than its support for network transparency and single system imaging from heterogenous machines, I don't think it's very Plan 9-ish at all.

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

I'm glad you brought Sprite up. Been meaning to look at it closely. Far as Amboeba vs Plan 9, that was intentional on my part: get HN readers seeing something a bit different that happened in the same field. Probably just phrased the comment badly again (sigh).

Sprite homepage for HN readers following along:

http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Research/Projects/CS/sprite/spr...

Edit to add: The retrospective is definitely worth reading. I think most administrators, to this day, have it harder in some ways than people running Sprite due to their clever design choices in networking, storage, and single-system-image.

The Use of Name Spaces in Plan 9 (1993)

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