Coding Boot Camp Enrollment Soars as Students Seek Tech Jobs

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-08/coding-boot-camp-enrollment-soars-as-students-seek-tech-jobs

by adventured • 11 years ago

28 58 11 years ago

owlee• 11 years ago

Does anyone have an idea of what the dropout rate is for the typical bootcamp program? Seems like it would be hard to accurately measure, but perhaps there's an "industry insider" lurking around here.

slykat2• 11 years ago

This depends significantly by program but at AppAcademy the attrition rate was around ~6%.

busterarm2• 11 years ago

In my cohort our attrition rate was 16%, but I think ours was unusually high.

I'm pretty happy with a/A though. I can't speak for every program, but it seems we cover a lot more than most. That said, I think people need to come into it with more to be successful - I know other programs take folks with absolutely zero experience.

Only a few of us had any kind of CS background though. I was one of another 16% in my cohort who had any idea about different data structures, Big O, etc.

auston• 11 years ago

I'd say it's about 1 in 20.

Kortaggio• 11 years ago

What I'd like to know is where the graduates from 3-month programs are working, it seems like the vast majority of job postings I come across look for only mid-level or senior engineers.

guyzero2• 11 years ago

This could be selection bias: companies have other channels to acquire junior engineers, so they don't advertise these positions.

edwinnathaniel• 11 years ago

Startups, Web-Design boutique/consulting, freelance/contract. Less likely the big guys (Google, MS, Apple, Amazon).

ilzmastr• 11 years ago

Yes majority in local consultancies and small startups, but generally anywhere: Facebook, google, linkedin, paypal, square, tumblr [1], thoughtbot, pivotal, artsy, betterment

1: http://www.appacademy.io/

doomspork2• 11 years ago

I'd like to know this too. The few places I've worked that hired from these schools quickly let folks go and never went back.

I know a few left tech altogether.

pigscantfly• 11 years ago

I'm more curious about what's generally covered in the curriculum. Three months doesn't seem like enough time to learn much in depth, even if you're a total workaholic.

doomspork2• 11 years ago

The basics and that's about it. IMHO, these schools do a very big disservice to the people they pretend to help. I think it's particularly bad for woman and under represented groups looking to springboard into technology, as it sets an unreal expectation.

madaxe_again3• 11 years ago

You can only get away with hiring juniors is you're very big or very small - between the two the overhead of training someone up is a significant short term burden.

guyzero2• 11 years ago

16K is roughly the number of university CS graduates the US produces in a year. Holy crap. See http://cra.org/resources/taulbee/

thekevan2• 11 years ago

[Emphasis added]

"William Dembinski, 24,...will pay $17,780 to take classes six days a week, 11 hours a day for three months."

" Dembinski said. “That type of mentality is healthy, and I want to be pushed.”"

A little scary.

strathmeyer5• 11 years ago

What's scary is that in 2004 and 2005 less than 50% of these people got jobs by the time they graduated college and the economy has never picked them up. We're told we don't deserve jobs after all our hard work. We're just supposed to keep waiting... and waiting...

M83• 11 years ago

Sometimes there is just a surplus of people. Besides, 50% of graduates being hireable sounds just about right.

LaurensBER• 11 years ago

The guy is 24, ambitious and perhaps a bit desperate. Given the choice of call-centre/fast food jobs or a three month grind I would have preferred the boot-camp.

Now the costs are just crazy, for that kind of money you could get a bachelor degree in Europe.

enraged_camel• 11 years ago

>Now the costs are just crazy, for that kind of money you could get a bachelor degree in Europe.

I think the point is that bachelor's degrees are not very useful these days in terms of getting a high-paying job. That's what is attracting people to these boot camps.

thekevan2• 11 years ago

"That type of mentality is healthy"

He doesn't say something along the lines of "yeah, it will be a tough grind but there's light at the end of the tunnel", he seems to accept that's just how things are and what you do.

nickysielicki2• 11 years ago

This is absolutely awful news. This should be on the front page of CNN in big bold letters: The Department of Education and post-secondary institutions are both utterly and completely failing students in their curriculum.

We teach roughly 400,000 high school students AP calculus every year. [0] How many of them go on to use it in their daily life? Meanwhile, we teach 1/10th as many students AP computer science. [1]

You might note from reading this article that these camps aren't cheap, meaning that the type of people who can afford to make up for the shortcomings by their schools are rich kids who probably went to ivy league schools anyway[2], or people in the middle of their career realizing their career prospects are limited.

I might also state, though I'm not bothered to look up statistics for it, that I believe the demographics of highschools offering AP-CS and AP-Calc are probably mostly districts from upper middle class communities. In other words, rich kids.

The take away from that is that the DoE and colleges aren't just failing the disadvantaged here, like they always have. They're even failing the rich kids! \gasp\

There are two huge causes of this, IMHO:

* Colleges are privatized luxury camps rather than places to get an education. I go to UW-Madison. Our CS chair just left because the state is defunding UW schools and he got an offer elsewhere with more security.

Meanwhile, our out of state tuition is likely to double in price. But that's okay, they'll still pay. After all, we're spending $200M[3] on new flashy gyms. Look how much fun they're having! Fuck job security, I want that! [4]

* DoE and colleges are not nearly responsive enough to the changing job environment. Too afraid to make a leap. Too broke to make a leap. I'm not sure if the answer is common core or not. But I know whatever we're doing now is completely failing.

It's going to be absolutely brutal. If the US wants to remain anywhere near the top of the world, we better start making some mind-blowing startups, because the effect of this isn't a matter of if, it's when.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Computer_Science

[2] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/coding-cla...

[3] http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/pat_schneider/uw-...

[4] http://www.kahlerslater.com/expertise/recreation-wellness/un...

rimantas• 11 years ago

How many of them go on to use it in their daily life? Meanwhile, we teach 1/10th as many students AP computer science.

How many of them will use brains in their daily life? And why do you want everybody to be a programmer?

nickysielicki2• 11 years ago

I feel you've missed my point. I don't want everyone to be a software engineer.

How many of them will use brains in their daily life?

I'm not saying that mathematics isn't worth learning. I'm just saying that there are obvious gaps in our education system. Clearly, by the article, people are coming out of 4 year schools wishing they had some background in it. I think everyone should be able to program in the same sense that everyone can do algebra. And I believe the blame for that not being the case falls squarely on the DoE and universities.

xerophyte12932• 11 years ago

I was thinking of starting a coding boot camp because I love programming and I love to teach.

So my question is, what do people look for in coding boot camps? What do they expect from them?

slykat2• 11 years ago

A coding bootcamp is basically a vocational program. Grads are looking to get placed in web developer roles so that's what their metric of success - can graduates get junior web roles?

strathmeyer5• 11 years ago

Got a CS degree a decade ago, haven't been able to find a programming jobs since (I don't know Java or C#, learned some esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for.) Boot camps promise jobs, after a decade of looking at jobs that require 5+ years of experience, I hope something like that can finally be my ticket into the industry. As opposed to all those projects I worked on over those four years. The webserver, the proxy, the file system, the kernel, the terminal, the shell, the ML parser written in ML, the raytracer, the networking stack, the video games. All my personal project.

So what do they have to you at bootcamps that is so special?

alaskamiller2• 11 years ago

You learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, a MVC framework, Git, debugging, testing, some basics of product management, some basics of product marketing, in 3 months and they call you ready for a $85k+ job in Silicon Valley with a mid-sized business that lacks the resources to recruit like a big corporation and aren't as picky as a real startup that needs experience and skills.

baby• 11 years ago

You definitely can learn HTML, CSS, Javascript, MVC, git,... in 3 months if you only do that.

eru6• 11 years ago

Got a CS degree a decade ago, haven't been able to find a programming jobs since (I don't know Java or C#, learned some esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for.)

If you think that's important, why didn't you fix that in the mean time? Knowing nothing else about you, I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own..

sown4• 11 years ago

If you think that's important, why didn't you fix that in the mean time? Knowing nothing else about you, I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own..

Speaking as someone in a similar situation, even after I learn what I can, it's still difficult to get a job using the newer languages I've learned. I know that I don't know what I don't know; perhaps I'm missing something, but it's still difficult to convince employers to hire when you've got no experience.

strathmeyer5• 11 years ago

Fix it, how exactly? I've learned plenty of languages. That I can't get a job using since I have no work experience with them. What exactly do you mean by fix. If I could fix it.... it would be fixed. I've always been expected to learn everything on my own. I've worked on all my projects alone. I thought there would be other people who would want to work with me and who could teach me things.

venomsnake• 11 years ago

esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for

I find it hard to believe that.

M83• 11 years ago

I am sorry, but you will have to learn JavaScript and some other legacy languages (CSS, HTML) to succeed.

WalterGR• 11 years ago

None of those are required or even recommended to succeed.

If you want to develop websites - sure. But there are many other kinds of development work.

lordnacho2• 11 years ago

Where do you live? I've seen quite a few c++ jobs. If you've written a networking stack and a raytracer, it's the kind of high-performance code HFT firms are looking for. And they're all after c++. And then there's a lot of embedded jobs that might also be after that.

Also Java and c# would be pretty easy to pick up if you already have c++.

What have you been doing in the meantime?

dagw• 11 years ago

There are very few entry level jobs for C and C++ programmers from what I see. The people looking for C++ programmers tend to have hard problems and are looking for really good programmers.

It's much easier finding entry level jobs if you know Javascript/Java/Ruby etc.

yitchelle2• 11 years ago

Got a CS degree a decade ago, haven't been able to find a programming jobs since (I don't know Java or C#, learned some esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for.)

I am really sorry to have to say this but if after a decade and not able to land a programming job, it is probably not your technical skills holding you back. Getting through bootcamp may not help at all.

Again, really sorry to have to say it

strathmeyer5• 11 years ago

What are programmers supposed to do, then?? I can't get a job in food service. Are we just supposed to... fade away.

Why did I take two years of Calculus in high school and then take college CS courses before I graduated? This is a serious question.

lordnacho2• 11 years ago

I've been helping out a friend with an app MVP, and he's found a lady to supplement the dev team from a bootcamp.

- She told me most of the people dropped out. Only a handful managed to actually finish the course.

- She's an ex designer with iOS experience, so that makes it easier.

- She's got a job already. Had to cross the US, but she was being wooed by a number of firms.

- She knows the tools. XCode, Git, SourceTree. Cuts down intro time by a lot.

- She's pretty good at the work (very keen as well), but not experienced. Anything I show her, she seems to understand. Basically it looks like they've given her a good practical foundation, but not a whole lot of breadth (how could you in such a short space?). So she's seen all the internal bits of iOS and can start hacking at our app, but if I go through the big-O of an algo (which actually came up), it might take a while to sink in.

Comparing this to my brother, a CS undergrad from an Ivy, it's like he's got the theoretical foundations, but not a lot of the practical side. To actually be productive, you need to spend time on things like version control, and the specifics of various languages and IDEs. He does come across these things, but it appears to be incidental. Yet there's so much work on these courses, the sheer volume of practical things will probably add up.

madaxe_again3• 11 years ago

I guess my main query here is who is actually going to be hiring these people.

As I see it, there are two "camps" of coders - those who code because they love to code and to solve problems, and those who code because it's a job.

The former solve problems, not because the boss is breathing down their neck but because the problem is interesting, and they will learn whatever needs to be learned to solve the problem. The latter look at a problem and go "but I wasn't taught this!", and despair.

Yes, those are hyperbolic examples, but are very real phenomena - we employ a lot of developers, and the ones who stick around are all from the former camp - the latter tend to wash out during probation.

I'm not at all saying that more people shouldn't learn to code, however I am saying that people who are learning to code because it's a career rather than as a vocation aren't doing themselves too many favours, as I would (and will) argue that the mentality of "how does this work? Don't know. I'll find out!" is absolutely core to being a coder, and those who have this mentality tend to gravitate towards code and other similar disciplines naturally.

There is of course the segment which comprises people with the aforementioned nous but who haven't had the opportunity to explore it, and these are the people for whom bootcamps are likely a brilliant idea, and a great bootstrap up into the industry - and I suppose this is reflected by the apparently very high drop-out rate seen.

busterarm2• 11 years ago

I love to code and solve problems and have been programming as a hobby since I was 6.

I followed a different career path (systems administration & support) and at 30 decided to change careers and develop software. I had to learn how to write better software to go after the work and the problems that I'm really interested in. I feel that writing software should be a means to an end.

Because of this, I made the decision to go through a coding bootcamp and look for a job. I'm not alone here, but you're right that a lot of folks are looking for a paycheck.

I see a lot of folks on this board write off bootcamps entirely (though it seems to be swinging the other way). It's a little disheartening.

madaxe_again3• 11 years ago

Yeah, I definitely don't write them off, but I will usually probe a bit harder about a candidate's motivation if they've gone through one.

You sound like you're doing it for all the right reasons!

thewarrior2• 11 years ago

This is just the beginning of the commoditisation of the average developer's skillset.

In the 20th century organisations employed hundreds of clerks to keep their operations running smoothly. Now we pay them slightly more and call them programmers.

Either skill up significantly to work at a top tier company or take up something boot camp proof like Medicine , Law etc.

loco5niner• 11 years ago

below average...

Coding Boot Camp Enrollment Soars as Students Seek Tech Jobs

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