Haskell Communities and Activities Report, May 2015

https://www.haskell.org/communities/05-2015/html/report.html

by mihai_maruseac • 11 years ago

90 37 11 years ago

r0naa• 11 years ago

I have big hopes for the future of Haskell.

Haskell is backed by a truly amazing community. A lot of effort has been put into making Haskell more "beginner" friendly or production-ready. There is obviously still a long way to go and things to improve (cabal?) but what has already been achieved is something that Haskellers can be immensely proud of.

I am certain that this will pay off on the long term. Haskell will continue to inspire people to build better, safer software and contribute to make the line between software engineering and mathematics blurrier.

From a sociological aspect I hope that the values of tolerance, respect and benevolence that most of the Haskell community is supporting will also contribute to make tech a more friendly and equal place for everyone.

crimsonalucard6• 11 years ago

I'm currently learning and loving haskell. I, however, find it unlikely that this language will ever become mainstream.

Throwing a beginner head first into recursion and restricting all their programs to be a singular composite of expressions is the, unfortunately, best way to turn away a beginner.

But damn, it'd be an awesome future if I'm wrong.

coolsunglasses5• 11 years ago

Throwing a beginner head first into recursion and restricting all their programs to be a singular composite of expressions is the, unfortunately, best way to turn away a beginner.

The alien-ness is what makes it difficult, not the actual design. Less design surface area makes it considerably easier to learn in that respect. That doesn't mean Haskell is easy to learn in general, for now. There's a huge difference in jumping from Ruby->Python->JS vs. learning how to program in terms of a foundation built on lambda calculus.

"singular composite of expressions" - this doesn't mean a lot, and doesn't really fit, I think. You can hand-wave do syntax and pretend you're writing imperative code in IO. A lot of people do that when first starting out so they can get the hang of things. SPJ (OG Haskell honcho & compiler hacker) likes to say that Haskell is the nicest imperative programming language to use. I'd tend to agree :)

Takes practice. You need exercises.

If you haven't already seen it, I'd recommend taking a look at the guide I've maintained on how to learn Haskell: https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell

bjt• 11 years ago

+1 to "You need exercises." I'd read through Learn You a Haskell about 1.5 times but not really felt like I knew the language. The exercised from the CIS194 course in your links were a lot more effective, though I've only made it through the first 3-4.

crimsonalucard6• 11 years ago

I'm not bad with haskell and I like it a lot.

I meant like beginner as in a beginner in programming in general. I feel the only reason why I was able to pick it up really quickly and like it was because I wasn't a beginner.

wetmore• 11 years ago

I wanna thank you for the work you've put into helping people learn Haskell, I've pointed a lot of people towards your guide.

dllthomas3• 11 years ago

"singular composite of expressions" - this doesn't mean a lot, and doesn't really fit, I think

Actually, while the presentation here was perhaps overstated, I think there is an issue here. The fact is that other languages split things into expressions and statements, such that the combinations of these things is more limited. This has a downside, in that you are not as free to cut things in the way that best fits your domain or your solution. But it has an upside in that where you cut becomes more obvious, and learning the appropriate size for chunks (particularly as you come back and repeatedly modify the same pieces of code) is an additional thing one needs to learn in Haskell that isn't entirely obvious (at least, it wasn't for me, and I feel I could still do much better than I do).

bsznjyewgd• 11 years ago

recursion and restricting all their programs to be a singular composite of expressions

Simple effect-free loops in an imperative language translate directly to a recursive function, which is just a labeled loop that makes explicit what/how state is manipulated each loop iteration.

(Edit: For effectful loops, it's common practice in imperative languages to interleave the effects with the program logic. (Un?)fortunately, Haskell discourages this practice and encourages you to refactor the pure parts of your program from the effectful parts. This might make your program more reusable and testable, but it's an obstacle if you are just writing a fancy Hello World and want to get stuff done.)

The singular composite of expressions is not a necessity, but to avoid it you have to give names to all your intermediate states, whereas a typical imperative language reuses the same name repeatedly.

michaelochurch4• 11 years ago

The singular composite of expressions is not a necessity, but to avoid it you have to give names to all your intermediate states, whereas a typical imperative language reuses the same name repeatedly.

Interesting way to put it.

I like to tell people that they program in languages where every type signature is "Any -> IO Any". It's technically true, but it gets some weird looks.

crimsonalucard6• 11 years ago

Hey I agree, I'm saying a beginner, like a beginner in programming in general.

coolsunglasses5• 11 years ago

Haskell discourages this practice and encourages you to refactor the pure parts of your program from the effectful parts.

No more than imperative languages do. Speaking from experience, if you wanna slap IO on the arse of all your types, no one can stop you. Our friggin' project/dependency management tool is written like this. Yes, Haskellers usually prefer something nicer but nobody's going to steal your compiler if you don't.

We should avoid mistaking our discomfort with a language or idiom with what it does or does not encourage, can or cannot do. Chopin's nocturne op 48 1 is not difficult because pianos discourage it, it's difficult because it's difficult. In fact, it would be extremely hard to translate to a less expressive instrument. Similarly, writing programs in a well-factored design that separate actions from the computations that decide what happens from the datatypes that model them takes effort and practice, whether you use Haskell or not. I would submit that using a less expressive language will not make the task itself easier any more than trying to capture all the notes of Chopin's 48/1 on something less expressive than a piano would be easier.

My coauthor has her 10 year old learning Haskell from our book. This stuff does not have to be hard.

I can do whatever I want in Haskell.

    Prelude> map (+1) [1..5]
    [2,3,4,5,6]

    Prelude> mapM_ (print . (+1)) [1..5]
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6

I've got more news for you, since we have composition for things with more structure, it's still composable. (>=>) is like function composition, but for when we have monadic structure flying around.

    Prelude> let x num = print num >> return (num + 1)
    Prelude> :t x
    x :: (Show b, Num b) => b -> IO b
    Prelude> mapM (x >=> x >=> x) [1..5]
    1
    2
    3
    2
    3
    4
    3
    4
    5
    4
    5
    6
    5
    6
    7
    [4,5,6,7,8]

You can write all the loopy-woopy side-effecty whatevers you want. Haskell's just better at it and offers alternatives. The actual recursive loops are less spooky than the name "mapM_", but I didn't want to make it verbose.

One of the nice things about Haskell is you can always replace a function with its contents, or factor something out into a function and call that function by name and the result never changes.

    -- You could inline the definition of foldr
    -- and make mapM_ loopy-woopy, but why would
    -- you want to repeat yourself?
    mapM_ = foldr ((>>) . f) (return ())

michaelochurch4• 11 years ago

It will not become dominant in the way that Java was, but I think Haskell should and can aim for 5 to 15 percent mind-share. Once we get to a point where people who want to work in Haskell or Haskell-like languages can do so, and where most programmers are aware that Haskell is in fact a production-ready language right now, I'll consider that a victory.

Scala and Clojure proved that far better languages than Java could actually be practical, even in "the enterprise" where Java reigned, but there are a lot of reasons why it's even better to be off-JVM and Haskell seems like a natural step. Also, as programmers get further along and more experienced, they tend to prefer static typing because dynamic typing simply doesn't scale on multi-developer projects unless you have a very disciplined and competent team-- which is not all that rare, but it's hard enough to make happen that the (perceived) negatives or difficulties of static typing are a rounding error in comparison.

rwallace• 11 years ago

prefer static typing

That's all very well, until you look at a few Java programs in the million line range, and it turns out the source code for most of them also includes a million lines of XML, and the reason for that is Java's type system doesn't really match the problem domain, so people resort to XML basically as a way around the type system. And if you're going to be effectively writing a large chunk of your program in XML, you'd be better off using something like JavaScript or Python that is actually designed to be a dynamic programming language.

Now you could make the counterargument that this is because Java's type system isn't very good and if you used a language like Haskell with a better type system you'd have better results. Maybe, but then the objective isn't so much 'use a static type system' as 'make Haskell palatable to a decent percentage of programmers'. I'm not saying it's impossible to do that, just that it's a different challenge and needs to be understood for what it is.

graffitici• 11 years ago

I've looked into Haskell, and loved it. Even though I've never used it for any code that ran in production, and I doubt I ever will, I really appreciate the contributions of the Haskell community. I think they had a great part in the popularization of type safety. Case in point, this talk about what Python can learn about Haskell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVChXmNjV7o

coolsunglasses5• 11 years ago

Speaker of that talk launched http://ghcformacosx.github.io/ a couple weeks after Bay Hac '14.

I wonder sometimes if it was already on his mind or if it was because people were complaining about Platform at Bay Hac.

Bob is awesome :)

progman• 11 years ago

I think the language itself is not the problem but the environment. It takes a lot of effort to setup a working system.

What beginners want is a "QuickHaskell" -- an out-of-the-box working Haskell environment with all batteries included -- in the sense of QuickLisp, for all platforms (not only OSX). I know FP Complete but this is a web service. It would be nice to have an instantly working environment for offline programming.

Why did the Haskell community not promote EclipseFP? It is (was?) such an awesome beginner's IDE. The maintainer has quit due to lack of support.

http://jpmoresmau.blogspot.de/2015/05/eclipsefp-end-of-life-...

fractalsea• 11 years ago

Have you tried the FP Haskell Center IDE[1]? It's completely web based, and should make it very easy to set up projects, bring in stable libraries and do builds. I would imagine this would be very useful for beginners.

There's more information in the linked Communities Report.

[1] https://www.fpcomplete.com/business/haskell-center/overview/

Haskell Communities and Activities Report, May 2015

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