Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

https://medium.com/@katylevinson/sexism-in-tech-don-t-ask-me-unless-you-re-ready-to-call-somebody-a-whistleblower-e5d545e547b0

by xena • 11 years ago

330 316 11 years ago

medium.com

smt88• 11 years ago

I didn't understand what this was about, based on the title.

As it turned out, it's an incredibly interesting, important, and sad essay on the severe consequences that exist for women who fight for their own physical/emotional safety (and the safety of others).

If you want to know how people can repeatedly rape coworkers and get away with it, you should read this article.

tracker12• 11 years ago

I think it all sucks... on the one hand, being falsly accused of something because someone made a bad decision in a moment, or exaggerated is pretty bad.

* Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision)

* A person asks another person they work with out. (this isn't harassment, though once a firm no is given they should not ask again)

The problem with the first, is it does happen, for any number of reasons... the second less so, but often women will give a soft decline instead of just saying they aren't interested.

On the flip side, continual harassment, rape, sexism and just general asshole behavior does exist, and should rightly be called out. The trouble is, without repeated offenses, it's almost impossible to know the difference as an outsider.

cstrahan2• 11 years ago

* Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision)

Did I miss somewhere in the post where the regret of a (mutually) drunken one-night-stand was equated with rape? Or are you bringing this up because you believe such occurrences happen often?

If it's the latter, would you mind sharing sources? I've heard people suggest that these things happen (where the "victim" was either embarrassed of sleeping with the person, or perhaps was ashamed due to their morals), but I have never seen a man or women ever claim that they were raped when it was in reality just "a bad decision" ... which makes me wonder if the mentioning of the scenario you give is just a common device for distracting from the topic of rape.

hrktb7• 11 years ago

The title with punctuation:

Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower

I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand.

Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arresting a co-worker wouldn't be whistleblowing, just basic law inforcement.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

I defined rape as the kind with the (bad) screaming and the blood, or tried to. I am aware that some people steal because they are starving but most theft I have seen was somebody who wanted to prove that they could do it. In the same way, I know some people rape in other complicated situations, but the rape I have seen in my life was individuals who just wanted to prove that they could do whatever they wanted, and nobody was going to stop them.

My reading does not suggest that all rape produces irrefutable physical evidence, nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety. If you have evidence to the contrary, I can't tell you how excited I'd be to hear it.

hrktb7• 11 years ago

* nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety*

Has there ever been any evidence that charging a person of power of any crime comes with protection from collateral professional/personal consequences ?

In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise my professional or personal comfort over getting justice. I am also considering that if some place would refuse me a job because I got someone charged for a criminal offence, perhaps that's not a place I'd like to work for in the first place.

I understand that can feel idealistic, and some situations can be a lot more complex than that, especially when a whole industry is mainly filled with assholes in power positions. But I'd believe that making things clear (have a judge validate a claim for instance) can help to get away from overly abusive environments and alleviate the "he/she's just making stuff up" bullshit thrown around the victims.

SwellJoe12• 11 years ago

It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this.

Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't take "no" for an answer and their target feels they would be in more danger from fighting than from submitting.

Our justice system is not helpful to most rape victims, because it is not "real rape"; with fighting, injuries, blood, bruises, etc. And, most rape victims choose not to report the crime because it would further harm them to go through the process of being grilled by police and forced to relive the experience for an audience of likely unsympathetic or even overtly hostile people (this is not to say all police officers are unsympathetic or hostile to rape reports, but the fear that they will be is real and valid).

"most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it"

Most of the time it is a "he said, she said" situation, and any proof can be interpreted as consensual sex, depending on the person hearing the story.

ricardobeat2• 11 years ago

I honestly had a similar question in mind. The phrases "raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months" and "female colleagues told me later that he raped some of them, and in much the same way my attacker had raped me." got me confused. Rape is defined as "unlawful sexual intercourse", is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass other kinds of sexual assault? Or am I being too naive?

egeozcan3• 11 years ago

I have a hopefully helpful objection to the use of the word "rape" to describe anything other than "violent rape": While I understand the need to put a strong word to describe the perversity of the offence (which surely isn't less than "violent rape"), the obvious problem is "date rape" and similar are sadly not very well-known. So, when you just say "rape", many tend to think about a related but somewhat separate problem. Being a well-defined criminal offense, "violent rape" has established solutions. "Date rape" and "'can't say no'-rape", not so much. So it becomes only natural that people would tell you to go to the police.

randyrand8• 11 years ago

"(and wouldn't consent when sober)"

What you would have done sober is completely irrelevant (for both parties). Most states define alcohol related rape as "too drunk to consent." That is all we need to be concerned about.

randyrand8• 11 years ago

"submitting" should not be confused with "took effort but convinced them to have sex with you"

Saying no and resisting is different than convincing someone to have sex with you. The previous is rape. The latter can often just be part of courtship.

At the end of the day, it should be rather obvious if you're raping someone or not.

tveita• 11 years ago

I'm sorry, could you define what you mean by "grey area sex"?

littletimmy2• 11 years ago

Hard to define, but easy to give examples for. Here's one:

Man drunk. Woman drunk. Man woman have sex.

Technically, both of them raped each other. But this is pretty far from what you'd call rape, even if it is legally considered that. This is "grey area sex".

hrktb7• 11 years ago

I think Littletimmy's answer is pretty much what I had in mind. To explain a bit more, there can be situation where sex happens but one of the party could not refuse for various reasons, and the other party have deniability of coercing.

For instance, a boss asking an employee for sex after a diner, and the employee feels coerced but doesn't say anything.

Effectively it would be rape, the boss should not be considered innocent of profiting from a position of power, but it can be argued that the employee could have legitimely wanted to have sex judging from his/her attitude.

For me that's grey in the sense that while from the employee's point of view it's rape, from a third party point of view it's hard to factually prove so.

To be clear, I don't use 'grey' in the sense that it should not be punishable or anything, it's not a value judgement, just that from a legal point of view it's trickier than violent rape.

needacig2• 11 years ago

She explains that she could not have reported the rape without destroying most of her personal and professional relationships, because the perpetrator was someone who was central in her social circles.

See her comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542

I think this is pretty common and is why many rapes go un-reported. Reporting some criminal stranger on the street who jumps you seems like a no brainer to me, but reporting someone you thought was a friend and who is friends with most of your friends? I bet a lot of people decide it's not worth upending their lives and starting over for.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

I'm really sad this got downvoted off the front page (this article is only one hour old with 9 points, things 3 hours old with 9 points are still on the page). It's cool if not everybody is interested in talking about this, but I feel like the entire point of this article was that making whistle-blowers harder to hear is not good for society.

grey-area• 11 years ago

Good to see people speaking up with their experiences on this topic, however painful it is - whistleblower is definitely the right word for coming forward about sexual harassment and rape in the workplace.

Re the story dropping down below other stories - it might not be flagging, it seems there are many complex rules all interacting to rank stories so it's hard to know what causes story placement here but it's probably mechanical rather than deliberate. Seems to be moving up again now.

wglb• 11 years ago

I found it on the front page.

dang• 11 years ago

It didn't get downvoted; medium.com is in a class of websites that get mildly penalized by default pending moderator review. Not a great solution, but the alternative is reams of blogspam and fluff making the front page just because so much of it gets posted. We remove the penalty from solid articles (and typically reset the clock on them to restore a fair time window for upvotes), but it sometimes takes a while before that happens.

In the long run we intend to have the community do most of this, but finding and implementing the right mechanisms for that is a lengthy process.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear that. Thanks for telling me!

ramchip• 11 years ago

I appreciate how moderators sometime join in comment threads to explain their approach. HN moderation used to feel like a black box but I find the interaction with the community much better nowadays. Thanks!

bootload• 11 years ago

"We remove the penalty from solid articles (and typically reset the clock on them to restore a fair time window for upvotes), but it sometimes takes a while before that happens."

@dang, see how "lack of foo transparency" [0] can trick people into thinking there's intent behind the result ~ https://twitter.com/katylevinson/status/574733784517640192 - working on post.

[0] where 'foo' is moderation, spam filter or some piece of code written for some valid reason.

xai3luGi• 11 years ago

I agree with bootload, how about publishing all the penalties directly under the post?

danso2• 11 years ago

I don't know what it's like to be raped or sexually harassed, but I am frequently amused at how skeptics think it's so cut-and-dry to just report the issue. This came up in Kelly Ellis's public revelation yesterday that she had been sexually harassed at Google.

The Twitter thread starts here:

https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574092972624490497

The following is Ellis's statement, and then one of her more earnest "Oh really?" critics:

Ellis: Rod Chavez is an engineering director at Google, he sexually harassed me, Google did nothing about it. Reprimanded me instead of him

Twitter user: That's a very serious allegation. Hope you have evidence to back it up.

Ellis: Lol already dudes going, "where's the proof?" Do you expect women to wear wires whenever they're sexually harassed? Trust women.

Twitter user: there is a difference between questioning and accusations. I'm not calling her liar. Just requesting evidence...In general, to have been a victim of a crime, and not seeing the offender be punished must be awful. But there is a reason...we have the right to a fair trial. We all know the consequences of letting random people on the Internet serve justice.

Again, I've never been raped. But the last time I made a criminal complaint, it was when I was robbed of my phone at gunpoint a few years ago in New York. Granted, I acted quite foolishly...not having my phone, and not having used a payphone in years...My first instinct was to continue heading home, which was about 6 to 7 blocks away, so that I could lookup the nearest police station and walk over there...not realizing I could dial 911 anywhere, or at least go into the nearest storefront. So that bizarre behavior led to me getting quite the grilling from the first detective to respond, who outright accused me of making up the story because I didn't want to admit that I had a rough night with a hooker who robbed me of my belongings (apparently it's weird for a man to walk alone through Greeenwich Village at night)?

Anyway, long story short, no big deal. I knew I had plenty of evidence that this happened to me, including having tracking software on my (Android) phone...and while that was my first time being a victim of a violent crime, I've had enough experience with cops (being a former cops reporter) to understand where the skepticism was coming from, and also, to know that it was pretty tame compared to what other victims get. That said, if that was the treatment that I got, for an extremely cut-and-dry kind of crime (not too many debates over what constitutes armed robbery)...can you imagine the process that a rape victim has to go through? Or in the case of Ellis, someone who experienced non-criminal sexual harassment? Reporting a crime or a violation isn't as simple as hitting a button, it always consists of a non-trivial process (for me, besides the 4 hours of waiting for and then talking to the detective on the night of the incident, I missed a couple days of work to go to the station, fill out paperwork, do more interviews, etc).

To use the parlance of today's times, there's considerable "friction" in reporting an incident, regardless of the complexity of the issue. Whatever your stance on "is sexual harassment a prevalent problem or not?", at least recognize that the reporting of such a problem is easier to think about than to actually do.

edit:

To elaborate a little more...in my situation, the choice to report a crime was pretty obvious: I want my phone back, and also, the robber is obviously in the wrong. Quite frankly, I don't think I would've gone to the cops had it been a midnight phone-snatching (it's New York after all)...but since the robber escalated it by introducing a weapon, can't really just ignore the incident.

From my understanding, a rape or harassment victim does not have even remotely such an easy decision. Besides the emotional trauma, there's a huge amount of plain confusion -- rape/harassment is almost always perpetrated by someone who knows the victim, and sometimes someone the victim considered to be a friend. If a friend randomly punches me and takes my phone, after the "WTF was that about?" that I'd go through...I'm not even sure I could just go straight to the cops...Maybe my friend was drunk? Or pulling an elaborate prank? I'd at least want to call him (or email him, since he has my phone). And I guarantee that unless the punch caused serious injury to me, the cops are going to say, "WTF is wrong with you and your friend?", not immediately put out an all-points-bulletin to arrest my friend. And even if he's clearly in the wrong, think about all awkwardness in your social network that comes when the cops do arrive and arrest your friend...and we're not even at the indictment phase yet.

So again, just making assumptions, but when the crime is as controversial and "he said/she said" as rape or harassment...the decision to make a report does not at all seem like an easy one.

late2part• 11 years ago

Most likely the New York police department you spoke with were under strict orders to reduce the number of reported muggings in their area. Police officers in NYC boroughs have reported the requirements that they refuse to take reports, when the statistics are not in their departments best interest. I have no comment on the relevance to the canonical issue, but this friction you speak about from your mugging is due to corruption, not normalcy.

danso2• 11 years ago

You bring up a good, valid point, but one that is mostly orthogonal to the issue at hand. To the victim, it doesn't really matter if the friction faced is caused by malice or bureaucratic ineptitude...whether it's the detective who personally doesn't give a shit, or whether it's a detective with a heart-of-gold-who-normally-would-givea-a-shit-but-doesn't-want-to-be-the-squeaky-wheel-tonight...the result is the same to the victim.

Also, in defense of the NYPD detectives, I do not think it was "corruption" that caused the issue...again, things are rarely so black-and-white, good-and-evil. The next day, I was assigned a more enthusiastic detective, and a week later, the suspect was caught by an alert detective who was made aware of the suspect's description. The better explanation is that my story fit the pattern/biases of the initial detective who feels he's seen this shit before, etc. etc., and in his years of work, feels he's entitled to some skepticism.

But again, whether it's the result of actual "corruption" or just "normalcy"...who can really tell the difference?

Estragon2• 11 years ago

  Do you expect women to wear wires whenever they're sexually harassed?

Since the twitter response is predictable by now, and sexual harassment tends to occur over repeated interactions, it's surprising that woman haven't started to make recordings of sexual harassment before making allegations about it.

wongarsu• 11 years ago

I don't know about America, but in my country that would likely be illegal. You can't just record everybody without consent.

brighteyes3• 11 years ago

The Ellis example is a good one, I think.

She went public with concrete names and bad things that happened to her while working at Google, regarding both an engineering manager Rod Chavez, and a VP, Vic Gondotra. While there were a few of the expected "where's the proof" people on Twitter, as Kelly said, the large majority of responses she got were supportive, from lots of men and women.

In addition, in the google+ thread, several people from inside Google expressed shock (they only heard about it now, it wasn't common knowledge across the company) and mentioned that a lot of noise is going on internally right now about this.

Gondotra isn't still with Google, but Chavez is. I would bet that won't be for long.

Overall, the responses internally at Google were horrible, back then. HR tried to save the company from liability, not help her. But when she went public now, the responses were good, and change might actually happen.

As the saying goes, sunlight is the best disinfectant. The article here is correct to say that it's scary to be a whistleblower, but Kelly Ellis shows it's possible to be brave, and that the industry and community will in fact react positively when you do.

teraflop• 11 years ago

While there were a few of the expected "where's the proof" people on Twitter, as Kelly said, the large majority of responses she got were supportive, from lots of men and women.

You raise a good point, but the problem is that not all supportiveness is equal.

There are a lot of people who share their opinions when an incident like this goes public, and depending on what communities you happen to draw the attention of, the response may well be more positive than negative. But there's a much smaller number of people (like bosses and future bosses, for instance) whose response will have a real, tangible effect on your career and future.

If those few people happen to be an unlucky random sample -- like, say, the HN commenter who said about Kelly Ellis that "the only thing I have learnt from this and the Adria Richards nonsense is when I am hiring I will screen for radical feminism" -- then the supportive comments from complete strangers don't mean much. And so it's understandable why someone would be reluctant to take that risk.

mrbig4545• 11 years ago

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it.

Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

elmin• 11 years ago

I'm in America, and I've certainly never had a conversation where this level of sexism was mentioned. The worst I've heard is a creepy coworker who likes to give back rubs. For all the reasons in the article, I think it's something which is not discussed as much as it should be. All I can say, is anyone who does this stuff should not be employed anywhere.

emj3• 11 years ago

I've heard a girl talk about her rape in a friendly environment where we were all good friends, it became awkward and impossible to go on. If I was in her shoes I would never bring it up again, so the chances of hearing stuff like these is slim.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

Yeah I don't generally talk about this because it brings conversations to a screaming halt, and you have to spend all your time comforting whoever you just told.

chroma• 11 years ago

The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute.

In fact, the most sexist behavior I've encountered in the workplace was a manager who had a propensity to interrupt women more often than men. I mentioned this to him in private. Apparently, it was an unconscious bias. Afterwards, he made an effort to correct for it.

Outside of the workplace (parties, bars, public transportation), I've encountered much worse: people getting cornered, felt-up, etc. But that's always involved strangers or acquaintances, not coworkers.

And it should go without saying, but I really feel for the author. :(

swombat3• 11 years ago

I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off, becoming louder and growing more numerous the longer nobody responded to them. Security did nothing, and I was on my own to de-escalate the situation.

Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Seriously? I don't really understand how this can happen. It's just not thinkable in any professional context I have ever experienced. It's about as unthinkable as if a black speaker got on stage and some racists started throwing them peanuts - those people would not remain in the room very long. If security did nothing, the rest of the crowd would probably forcefully throw them out.

It seems some women (in tech or in other places) live in a very bizarre, warped world full of complete assholes. I can understand that they're very upset about that - I would be too. I would not tolerate remaining in such an environment, it affronts my basic sense of decency as a human being. But - I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living.

Baffled.

Edit: Interesting that when I was looking at this comment just now it was at -1. Now back at +1. Not quite sure what there is to downvote here. I'm not disagreeing with the OP, just saying that in my career I have never observed the kind of disgusting behaviour she describes. Clearly it must be happening somewhere since so many women report it. I just wonder where.

Even if I was disagreeing with the OP, what is there to downvote? Is disagreement no longer allowed on this site?

tomlock7• 11 years ago

I'd challenge everyone who hasn't seen this in the workplace to talk to their close female friends about the issue. You may be surprised by their stories!

coordinated• 11 years ago

I'm using a throwaway here since my normal account is my real name.

My mom went to Long Beach to meet my dad before they got married. He was returning from Vietnam at the end of the war. She was gangraped in a alley by about five guys.

My sister was raped by my cousin when she was 13 and we were on a camping trip. She is 40 years old now and after a night out crashed on a friends couch and woke up to him jerking off on her back (this was a few months ago).

Things like this happen a lot and shit like "I have never seen so it can't be true" are part of the reason why you barely ever hear of it.

If you have a mom and sister the odds are pretty good one of them have been raped.

tomlock7• 11 years ago

The amount of downvotes I've got on the above comment really speaks volumes about the problem. It is shameful to me that I can get downvotes on a comment that suggests people actively listen to women.

RowanH• 11 years ago

I'd like to say having worked in both Canada and New Zealand over 18 odd years now and I've never seen anything like this also. I read these articles and I'm simply stunned. I keep wondering what the heck is going on in companies/cultures/environments for these things to happen.

Every time I read an article along these lines I feel even more grateful to work in environments where there haven't been glass ceilings, hiring is on merit and the workplaces are incredibly diverse.

littletimmy2• 11 years ago

In the US, I think the problem is that employers are MUCH more powerful than employees. That probably springs from the demonization of labor unions and weak employee protection laws.

swatow6• 11 years ago

How diverse is your workplace? I think that a lot of the differences are not in the workplace culture, but how it is reported. I work in the US and I also have never seen anything like this (not that I would have necessarily seen it if it was common, but the same applies to you and other non-US commenter).

jusben13696• 11 years ago

Other people have made this comment but I'll repeat it. Have you ever talked about this with female colleagues? It's scary what they tell you. I would say 95% of males get through their entire working career without ever feeling sexually uncomfortable or worse from another colleague at least once. I'd say about 10% of females would say that was true. Seriously, go talk with them.

swatow6• 11 years ago

Do you honestly think that the UK and America are that different in this regard? Is it possible you're looking for a reason not to contradict the article (not that the event occurred but that it is common or derives from tech culture).

rodgerd• 11 years ago

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this.

I asked a friend why she wasn't going to Linux.conf.au. She stopped going after she was sexually assaulted at one.

It's not just a US problem.

brohee• 11 years ago

Sexual offenders tend to have lots of victims, so victims are likely clustered around them.

A workplace with one must have quite a few victims, a workplace without one is full of people that never heard anything like this.

abalone7• 11 years ago

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me."

I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a focal point for specific change.

For example, how do colleagues end up even physically alone in the same space together especially after the first RAPE? Does this stem from unsupervised after-work parties that employees feel obligated to attend? Is it related to conferences or work travel? Clearly she would seek to avoid being near her rapist alone but couldn't. Are there things companies can be doing to better avoid such scenarios?

rayiner2• 11 years ago

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit.

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence.

2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

3) Why let it happen more than once? If you've ruled out calling the police, what are you going to do? Can you afford to quit your job on the spot? Can you compromise your long term future at the firm by bringing it to the management? You've worked years to get to where you are, and you just want to do your job and try to get ahead, just like your coworkers who didn't catch the eye of some creep.

learc83• 11 years ago

Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

Would the police do anything about the scenario you outlined above? Wouldn't sexual harassment where the boss trades sexual favors for promotions/job security be considered a civil matter in most places?

woofyman2• 11 years ago

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

swatow6• 11 years ago

Can you clarify what sort of coercion was involved? My understanding is that rape does involve physical violence, or at least physical coercion. In particular, "give me a blowjob or you are fired" is not rape, but "give me a blowjob or I'm not unlocking the door" is.

golemotron5• 11 years ago

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

geofft2• 11 years ago

Your comment reminded me of this story I read about a month back, which was pretty eye-opening to me as a male who's never been in a position to worry about these things:

http://jezebel.com/how-to-make-an-accused-rapist-look-good-1...

I'd known, intellectually, that a large fraction of rape is perpetrated by someone the victim knows and somewhat trusts. But the story here put concrete details to that and made me think. What do you do if someone you like, who you have been consensually involved with, takes advantage of you? What do you do if they had been, until then, your strongest support at a new school (or in a new job, or something), and social structures are that you're expected to keep working together? Is there even a better response than pretending it didn't happen, at least for a bit?

I'm also a little ashamed to say that, if I hadn't heard stories like this one and thought them through, I can see myself being the skeptical cop who says, well, why were you continuing to hang out with him and invite him over. And I'd known intellectually that skeptical cops were a problem that dissuaded reporting, and that it often was naïveté not malice, but never thought through what an actual case would look like.

randyrand8• 11 years ago

Edit: I'm wrong. Apparently coercion implies under threat. I Thought it just meant to convince someone of something. My apologies.

hrktb7• 11 years ago

I think what horrifies me the most in these stories is that, once someone is in a situation where he/she is coerced in a position to have sex, there is basically nothing stopping an escalation in abuse.

If her boss found her attractive enough to want a blowjob, why won't he progressively try to get as much as he can get away with ?

She was not in position to refuse the first step, she won't be in a better position to refuse further abuse.

At the first threat, I have the feeling she already has to choose between her career and getting abused for years.

indrx• 11 years ago

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence.

The definition of rape in California says nothing about "coercion":

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr...

It does mention "duress" which implies a threat of violence. If your friend's boss was not threatening violence then it's wrong to call it rape.

yason2• 11 years ago

That's quite different. She had an option to decline. Maybe it would've a very hard choice indeed, both socially and career-wise but she did have that choice. It might be convenient in some cases to broaden the definition of rape gradually but the bottom line is you can not be raped if you are simply able to walk away.

It might be harassment.

It might be blackmailing.

It might be a lot of nasty, disgusting, and even criminal things.

In the above story, the partner was obviously a complete prick.

But the scheme is inherently different from a rape. This abusing prick could've asked both men or women under his supervision for a number of completely unreasonable favours, whether sexual or non-sexual, declining of which would've been similarly catastrophic for the career of his staff members because of the power the abusing partner held over the matter.

But they could've walked away. Maybe they could have restarted their career elsewhere or had to change careers, I don't know. Life isn't fair. But they could've walked away and from what I understand, so could've this young associate in the law firm.

I think the very definition of rape is crossing the very line where the victim is not allowed to leave and forced to be abused instead. A rape is a physical act of violence, regardless of whether what happens is an intercourse or a blowjob or whatever and whether the victim was physically threatened by fists, a knife, or a gun, but the physical nature of the act means if you are able to walk away the rape doesn't happen because it can not happen. And that is for the same reason why a robber with a knife can't kill you unless you're within a few feet of him. A knifeman can't kill you a block away and a rapist can kill you if you're not there.

In some jurisdictions coercion might translate to non-physical threats. Then maybe there it could be classified as a rape. It's still as wrong as if it's classified as something else. But the dynamic of that situation is nevertheless different from the dynamic of a rape with the latter interpreted in the traditional sense. There is a line between situations from where you can actually walk away and situations from where you can not.

hackuser4• 11 years ago

Excellent points. I think that's one reason why management must consider this behavior unacceptable and make that abundantly clear to everyone ahead of time. Silentl disapproval isn't enough, because the victims won't trust you to come forward, and the attackers won't be detered. It's also the reason sexist jokes and seemingly harmless behavior is problematic; it sends the the message to attackers and victims alike that nobody takes these issues seriously.

randyrand8• 11 years ago

1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence

I was curious if this is technically rape in my home state (Illinois) so I looked it up...

edit: Already downvoted? C'mon this is relevant!

  (720 ILCS 5/11-1.20) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-13) 
    Sec. 11-1.20. Criminal Sexual Assault. 
  (a) A person commits criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration and:
        (1) uses force or threat of force;
        (2) knows that the victim is unable to understand the nature of the act or is unable to give knowing consent;
        (3) is a family member of the victim, and the victim is under 18 years of age; or
        (4) is 17 years of age or over and holds a position of trust, authority, or supervision in relation to the victim, and the victim is at least 13 years of age but under 18 years of age.

jobposter12342• 11 years ago

Very serious issue, but your first point is silly. While the absence of coercion does not clear the bar for "not rape", it does not follow that being unable to declare "not rape" equals "rape".

In your world view, it it inappropriate for any sexual intercourse to exist between a person of power and a subordinate who might gain from a relationship? Because the conclusion of #2 seems to be that sexual relationships can only exist between social / workplace equals, otherwise it will be M.A.D.

Rape is very serious. Sexual relationships are very complex. Every situation is different, and there is nobody (famous) on this forum that knows all the facts and should comment on this case, and should especially not try to draw conclusions from it.

This is more of a comment about the thread in general than your response, except where I specifically asked questions.

CodeWriter23• 11 years ago

2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

As a man, I may have a hard time understanding any nuances here, but I think being known as "the woman who called the police on her boss" would be highly advantageous in creating a filter where the only male bosses who would want to hire you are the ones who know they aren't going to rape you. Or try to fuck you "consensually" (air quotes) either.

joyeuse6701• 11 years ago

I've been pressured into sexual favors, and I said no, because my dignity was worth more than a job. Been assaulted before by someone with much more power, fought back too. When life shits on you, you have a decision to make, and that decision lies squarely with you the victim.

Every question you've asked is based on fear. Doing nothing because of that fear is cowardice. You are defending it. Stop it. Nothing can be borne from it.

abalone7• 11 years ago

I don't mean to split hairs but legally it looks like many or most states draw a distinction between sexual extortion and rape.[1] The difference being that sextortion is a lesser felony.

I wonder if that is the case here. Certainly sextortion among engineers/scientists would be an extraordinarily troubling state of affairs. But based on the OP's comments here[2] she is referring to rape and that the enabling factor had something to do with social life being mixed up with professional life. So, not exactly extortion but it would have been costly to avoid the person.

This may be pie in the sky but I wonder if a concrete step that startups can take to reduce problems like this is to make a conscious effort to not penalize employees for not attending off-hours social events. Aside from acquaintance rape, obviously, there's also things like not penalizing older employees with kids to go home to or alcoholics who need to avoid enabling environments.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextortion

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168365

eli_gottlieb• 11 years ago

2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

I feel like this is the kind of brave move we'd want to reward, for helping to clean up the whole firm.

Ok, I'm naive. So be it.

lawnchair_larry• 11 years ago

That is absolutely not rape.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

I don't really want to be the one to speak authoritatively on this topic because I can only speak about a very personal subject that happened to me and about what a colleague of mine told me under very strict confidence. I'd rather see serious scientific study on the topic, so we can refine our efforts to most effectively cut out this problem at the root cause.

We know rape is statistically a problem and we know it isn't well-studied. We are scientists. The next thing to do is not to listen to panic and get reactionary, it is to dedicate the resources necessary to pursue a proper understanding of it.

We're also engineers and entrepreneurs. I'd like to think we know well enough that to start with the lowest hanging fruit when trying to make positive change.

These are the reasons I'm not really ready to march in here with a "how to fix rape: the article." I would be really excited to see what other people have written as far as possible solutions to this. I'm trying to read through scholarly criminology journals when I have time. They're doing some good work. I wish more smart people were paying attention.

In the meanwhile, what I am for sure is needed is for people to look out a little bit for each other, so if there is somebody in your life who has reason to feel afraid and alone (or afraid of being alone), they know they aren't going to be.

abalone7• 11 years ago

But I'm not asking for an authoritative proposal to fix rape. That would be great, and take years. I just want to understand the specific scenario that led to a series of repeat rapes by a colleague over several month, also experienced by another female colleague. Isn't there a way to describe it generically without revealing any identities?

For example, is it after work parties involving alcohol? Does it involve professional blackmail? If so, was there no way to gather evidence that could be used for prosecution, such as a clandestine recording?

It seems to me like there could be an opportunity to speak to the startup community here and now and implement a policy that targets these specific circumstances, and make a difference in the near term.

eveningcoffee• 11 years ago

"A second colleague at a different institution held me against a wall against my objections and struggles and hit me with objects for his own amusement."

Now this sounds rather as an assault, a sick power play, but I would accept it called rape when it involved was sexual amusement but probably sexual assault would be a better term as it would not dilute the meanings confusingly.

Nonetheless this kind of behaviour is sickening and not acceptable by any means but it would explain why it was possible to tolerate it multiple times and how hard it was to do anything to prove that it happened.

Edit:

I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names.

For example "Stop sexual assaults at work" would be in my opinion much more convincing and believable slogan than the exaggerated wording.

This would make the fight with the problem easier as it would not create that much confusion and opposition from it.

Using strong words creates opposition as people would find it by their own experience rather not believable but perhaps they have seen, heard something that would fit sexual assault definition or sexual harassment definition.

I believe that it would be much easier to define and establish the definition of sexual assault in peoples minds and educate them to see it than trying to redefine the established definition of rape in the society.

For clarification, I consider here acts that are described by

"A second colleague at a different institution held me against a wall against my objections and struggles and hit me with objects for his own amusement."

Now again, we should not tolerate this kind of behaviour and we should fight against it but I think it would be easier when we do not call it by too strong names as it would be then easier to establish this as wrongful and not acceptable behaviour in peoples minds.

I think that it is easier to fight with concrete problems individually rather than stretching the definitions.

pron6• 11 years ago

I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names.

No, it won't, and let me explain why. One of the well known forms of sexism is what I like to call (I wonder if there's an academic name for this) "everyone's a lawyer". You'll find that often when men report wrongdoings, there's a simple expression of outrage, but when women do, everyone's a lawyer who says "of course that's horrible, but let's call it by the right name".

Leave the precise naming of offenses to the courts; these are legal definitions, after all, and we are not judges and not bound by the rules of evidence. The best way to fight it is to express outrage, period. No caveats, no "right names", and no legal maneuvering that is not our job anyway.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

Yeah I didn't view his actions towards me as rape either. Just really dickish.

datashovel4• 11 years ago

I can imagine at least one likely useful, but probably extremely invasive policy. But if, based on all of these recent blog posts, this is as pervasive as we're lead to believe then I would argue that invasive policies are the least of your concerns.

For all company events pair people up and make each persons' well-being the other person's responsibility. In the sense that they will share the responsiblity for reporting issues about things that happen to either of the pair, and not that they would be somehow liable for the other person's well-being. You could give people an option to anonymously "blacklist" certain partners if they don't feel safe around them, or anonymously "whitelist" certain pairings with people who they know they are comfortable around.

Bottom line, if it's not good enough to make a person's well-being their own responsibility then distribute the workload across at least one, and perhaps many other people within the organization.

datashovel4• 11 years ago

as an addendum to that: If your partner didn't see it, it didn't happen. This would force the pair to stick together at all times if they were at all concerned for their well-being.

jrochkind111• 11 years ago

How about instead, we all share responsibility for keeping each other safe in the workplace? All of us who care about our coworkers being kept safe anyway.

I liked the OP for it's message in that direction.

needacig2• 11 years ago

See her comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542

runamok• 11 years ago

Rape doesn't have to be violent. The person could have decided she was into it even though she was saying no, no, no and just proceeded. Presumably she didn't report the rape for her own reasons. I can only imagine how painful it is to revisit this without going into the gory details and be cross examined by the internet.

The sum of all the things she has dealt with are incredibly saddening to me. I have met Katy before and seen how much she did for Hacker Dojo and have a lot of respect for her.

I think the focal point for change is exactly what she is saying regarding "whistle blowers". Someone that comes forward to reveal crimes whether it be Snowden or a woman sexually harassed or raped by a colleague should be respected and not pilloried and made persona non-grata. Bring this bullshit into the light.

imaginenore3• 11 years ago

And, more importantly, why nobody ever calls the police and sues the guy for physical and emotional damages.

That part of the story sounds made up.

mattmaroon2• 11 years ago

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or accepted in tech than anywhere else. It's certainly not systematized or condoned. I can't believe Google (for whom she has worked) has any more lenient of a policy on sexual harassment or assault than any other Fortune 500.

And if it were this bad, why would she fear being ostracized? If my options were to stay in an industry and be repeatedly harassed, beaten, and raped, or switch careers, I don't think it'd be a tough call.

stepjump2• 11 years ago

unless maybe it turned out to be false

I'm assuming most of the people who have been sexually assaulted have no proof of the incident. So while it wouldn't necessarily "turn out to be false," there's a definite risk of people thinking that she was making the whole incident up for attention/out of spite/to get the other guy fired, etc. I think that's where the author's fear is coming from.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

I don't know that it is more common in tech because I have only worked in tech. Does that make it OK in tech if it happens everywhere else too? Would that make you want to fix it any less if you knew it was wrong that it happened everywhere?

geofft2• 11 years ago

I don't think there's a particular reason to believe this is significantly worse in tech than it is elsewhere (although if this I'm wrong, I'd definitely appreciate being corrected on this). But there are a few things I'd say:

- Tech has this particular weird cultural self-view that we all see ourselves and each other as middle-school nerds emerging victorious, as people who got past the bullies and the ills of "normal people" society, as people who were friendless (and dateless) in school but have found our own little environment now where we can be accepted as we are. So there's a tendency to think that we're not capable of the same sort of awfulness, and that we're better people than the other industries. There's a tendency, subconsciously, to think that if someone's saying something bad about any of our people, they're no better than our middle school bullies. We need to get over that and admit that the tech industry is like any other industry.

- On a different and simpler note, tech is our industry. I don't have nearly as much say about the culture of, say, big law firms or furniture design studios, than I do about the culture of companies where I work and where I might consider working.

Regarding Google, did you see this discussion, which was on the HN home page yesterday? https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25

mcantelon3• 11 years ago

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

It's gone :/

jusben13696• 11 years ago

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female to ensure that his desires are not aroused. So if rape and sexual harassment is happening at a workplace don't blame the victim for not leaving blame the perpetrator for bringing that into the workplace.

hrktb7• 11 years ago

Perhaps I'll give another perspective. A coworker had sexual harassment problems with one of our managers, and eventually she left the company. I cross checked, and the other managers knew about it but didn't do anything. I also left the company.

A place where abusing a coworker is OK is just a bad place to work. You might not be the target of the abuse at that time, but you'll get shafted for any other reason on any other subject (e.g. raises, project assignments, perks...).

Basically if it's just one bad apple, you should get help outing the problem. If most of the company is fucked up, you'll have to decide if you really want to stay there, and for me more often than not it's not worth it. Leaving a job can be seen as a privilege, but if you're actually getting regular abuse, it might as well be the only sane choice.

alextgordon• 11 years ago

You unwittingly fall into an enclosure filled with angry chimpanzees.

A crowd gathers, and shouts "Leave the enclosure, climb out, there's a ladder!"

Another crowd gathers and shouts at the first crowd "Shut up. Stop blaming the victim!"

Which crowd has your best interests at heart?

natmaster2• 11 years ago

Why leave? Report those issues. The real question is why just let it slide and then write a blog about it.

Rape is not something you should just let people get away with and move on with your life

mattmaroon2• 11 years ago

Oh, I'm certainly not blaming the victim. But I believe people have a responsibility to protect themselves. Not just a right, a responsibility. Fool me once, shame on you, etc.

If you are raped and do nothing about it, you're certainly not deserving of being raped again by the same guy. He's still a monster. But when it happens you've been a party to it. And you definitely can't complain that the company or industry you work for is sitting idly by and allowing it if you never reported it to them in the first place.

Now if you did report it and nothing happened, that's a problem. I can't imagine what I'd do if an employee came to me with that, and thankfully I've never had to, but I promise you it wouldn't be nothing.

pron6• 11 years ago

a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault

Well, but that's the problem. She's not saying she will be labelled a liability, but that the environment she works in makes her fear that she would.

As sexism is all about power[1], this is how power works. It's not only in the written rules, but in the atmosphere. Those in the position of less power feel afraid to take advantage of the law/rules, because they're afraid this will somehow be used against them, whether this is what will actually happen or not. You see this not only among women in tech, but among groups that have for a long time been on the receiving end of law enforcement when it comes to calling the police. This fear that the rules won't work in your favor is a great demonstration of how power works.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)

_bfhp• 11 years ago

It's your word against her's. She has been exposed to the internals of many instances of abuse, either by being the victim or talking to the victims as a woman, so I will be believing her over you -- why shouldn't I?

snowwrestler5• 11 years ago

but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false

This is the crux of the matter and where most men run into trouble with this whole discussion.

Let's say she comes forward and accuses a coworker of rape. The coworker denies the allegations and says she's lying to punish him for some work-related disagrement, or because he turned her down for a date or something. She doesn't have any recordings or physical proof. It's just her word against his.

Now what?? Well if you want to get a sense of what typically happens, take a look at this thread, in which multiple men are spending thousands of words debating the fine points of what exactly is bad enough to count as "rape", and why didn't she just quit, etc.

Basically: when there is not solid proof, guys tend to stick up for each other--and there are way way more guys in tech than women.

That's why she would fear being ostracized.

lettergram2• 11 years ago

I don't want to openly doubt rape, but jesus, several times over several months? Call the police, or at least avoid a situation if possible. Clearly she is willing to talk about it, so where's the police report?

Also, every time I read one of these articles I cringe. There's a big movement to "include women in tech", but it's interesting to note that (in my experience) there is a large group (bordering on majority) of women in tech that are just as disgusted by these articles.

My girlfriend finds it particularly offensive, her comments usually being something along the lines of: "If women want to be treated as equals, they should act like equals, not complain." Point being, she finds these articles counter productive, and most of the women whinny. She thinks a lot of the people in tech can be weird, and this can lead to people believing it there sexism, when in actuality it is just awkward behavior.

Finally, and my personal opinion, no one supports rape, sexual harassment or racism, and any subconscious bias is pretty hard to discern. It would be better to involve the authorities if you feel you are being rapped or harassed. From my personal point of view I have seen SO many women complain about being harassed or put down, and the fact is they may have, but I have never seen it. I work regularly with women in my jobs and I've never seen or had a problem. Some are bad team members and some are good. They are usually treated by skill level from my experience, and I have seen this taken as sexism more than once.

Other places are different (apparently) and if that's the case, punish the crap out of the people who harass women/race.

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, stop putting me in a group with these people. I'm calling bullshit on not just this article, but half these articles. There is definitely less women in tech, and nothing is inherently wrong with that. If there's something I can do to make it more inclusive, I will. However, please OP and anyone reading this, come at it with an open mind. Just because women aren't in tech does not imply something is wrong. Women and men are different, it's okay as long as it is not a sexist barrier. Just not having a lot of women does not mean there is that barrier.

Every situation is different, and you may have indeed been wronged (and I can sympathize), but stop generalizing. It's borderline sexism to claim "everyone in tech is sexist against women," we all know males have to watch themselves and be careful. That's probably why the OP was offered money, people are so scared of being called sexist, because it's so blown out of proportion. Handle it like everything else, with a clear mind.

If we are going to talk about sexism, give me the facts, give me the barrier, and give me a way I can fix it besides just being "subconsciously and uncontrollably bias." If that can't be done, then there probably isn't justification to discuss the concerns (yet).

empressplay2• 11 years ago

See? This is what I mean. I'm sure the parent poster is generally a nice person, but while they make what I'm certain they believe is an innocent comment, they claim a) women are less suited for technical careers (which has no basis in fact and is sexist as hell), b) suggest that women should "not complain" because by complaining they only cause men to reject them even more, but then c) on the flip-side say that if a woman is being harassed or raped they should call the police (which is certainly going to end their career if even talking about it is a no-no), and finally d) if there is a problem, I have nothing to do with it and should have no responsibility for it (which has all sorts of negative historical connotations).

All of these statements are questionable but were presumably made in good faith, by what I assume to be a reasonable person. That's the curious thing about all of this.

lettergram2• 11 years ago

Wow, well... to be honest I have no idea where you are coming from:

women are less suited for technical careers (which has no basis in fact and is sexist as hell)

a) All I claimed was that it isn't inherently bad to have less women. It could be due to sexism, a distaste for sitting in front of a computer all day, bad food or something else. My point is each situation should be based on it's own merit, and not generalized. I am sick of being called sexist if I don't think everyone is sexist.

suggest that women should "not complain" because by complaining they only cause men to reject them even more, but then

b) My claim is that a complaint should have merit, be taken care of immediately. I'm sick of posts like this, where the OP is claiming something happened years later, without proof or taking action. More over, I am claiming that there are a large group of men and women who believe it is easier to prove equality, as opposed to articles which create a further divide (by claiming everyone's a sexist).

Further sick of being criticized for sharing an alternative view, and immediately called a sexist.

on the flip-side say that if a woman is being harassed or raped they should call the police (which is certainly going to end their career if even talking about it is a no-no),

c) I hope you are joking. It wont end their career, it's just like every other job in the world. If your boss rapes you or co-worker THEY get in trouble. Trust me, the police aren't in this tech sexism too. They only care that someone was hurt. No employer would be like, "oh hey, I see you were sexually assaulted by your last boss..." No, not going to happen, this is fear mongering, and is just a downright distasteful argument. Not one that should be an actual concern.

if there is a problem, I have nothing to do with it and should have no responsibility for it (which has all sorts of negative historical connotations).

d) Where the hell did you read this? I made the claim that I need evidence, proof, something I can see and fix. If I have no direction what can I do? I have rarely heard clear arguments about sexism and the issues. It is always like the OP, just a bunch of claims without a way I (or anyone) could help.

You say:

All of these statements are questionable but were presumably made in good faith, by what I assume to be a reasonable person. That's the curious thing about all of this.

You may disagree with my statements, but your statements are even more curious. It is as if you didn't read what I wrote and just decided to call me a sexist for having an alternative view point. Especially, your "a" point:

No where did I claim:

women are less suited for technical career

Stop putting words in my mouth, stop calling me a sexist. The tech world isn't out to get women, just make cool stuff and money. If anything, we are scared of being called sexist and annoyed with these constant comments.

JDiculous• 11 years ago

You completely twisted his words.

jrochkind111• 11 years ago

"These articles"? I'm not sure I've ever seen an article quite like this before. It's a pretty amazing essay, pretty different from almost any I've seen before in it's approach.

What kinds of articles is it you don't like? Any article about sexual coercion and gendered harrasment in the tech world?

You seem to be suggesting that any woman writing such an article is somehow not "acting like equals"... huh? What is it about this article that, as you say, disgusts you?

I truly don't understand what you're talking about.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

It's taken me years to be able to talk about it. The window for prosecution closed a long time ago.

I feel like the three recommendations still stand on their own even if you believe nothing of what I said.

quadrangle• 11 years ago

It is inherently bad to lack reasonable gender diversity in a field where there is nothing inherent about gender to the field of work. Lack of diversity inherently causes problems because diversity itself brings valuable perspectives to any field.

Look at this (especially the graph they link to): http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html?_r=0

The lack of women in tech is serious problem, and you are part of the problem as long as you are among those trying to dismiss it as a non-problem.

hashed3• 11 years ago

Diversity doesn't bring anything, law or finance got more diversity than tech and yet they are one of the most stagnant and extortionist fields ever. The tech industry on the other hand is the most innovative and value creating industry of the last 50 years, all done by mostly man. So no, diversity doesn't magically create any "valuable perspective", the evidence is overwhelmingly to the opposite.

The reason there are no women in tech is because it's hard and they don't want to do it, same in physical jobs and in general in any value creating jobs as opposed to caring/service/value transfer jobs, basically the same things women used to do at home in the traditional family. Blaming the man in that industry as if they are worst than say lawyers or financiers or doctors is just bullshit and got no evidence. Women have made their choice, it is up to them to invest in studying tech and do something in the industry, stop shaming other people for women problems.

meric3• 11 years ago

I feel they could have done it without making my boss feel like he was being directly threatened with a huge HR complaint. It’s a real shame for our tech culture that there is no way to get somebody tutored about what is and isn’t appropriate without also landing them in deep trouble.

I'd like to add the only education available to teach people social interactions, outside of being self-taught, is PUA material, as well as in-house education on how to influence masses in the intelligence community. Which means if you weren't in a situation to talk to enough people while you were growing up, later on in life you'll miss out on jobs, you'll feel insecure, you'll make inappropriate comments, you'll have difficulty making friends, you'll have difficulty seducing a potential mate, you'll get divorced later on due to inability to manage arguments and fights and conflicts.

Families have been getting smaller - first people stopped living with close to their relatives, then people stopped living with their parents and siblings, and now people begin to stop living with their husbands or wives, and children without at least one of their parents, and parents having fewer siblings in general.

People are receiving less practical experience in interacting socially as they are growing up. You either fit in at school and do well, or you don't and isolate yourself and fall behind.

We have a mess at university campuses. We have a mess in tech companies. We have growing numbers of men who are 'losers'. We have growing numbers of women who can't get married if they want to. We have growing instances of inappropriate behaviour at work. Men and women resorting to electronic means to communicate, and avoiding face-to-face interaction, even among friends. Parents sent to nursing homes, pension spending growing and unsustainable. People growing up with little to no spiritual values besides materialism. etc, etc.

I think all of these stem from smaller families, causing less exposure to social interaction with others of the same age as well as with the older generation, resulting in less wisdom passed down, and decreased social ability of people growing up.

And it's only going to continue to get worse.

Though maybe people getting poor and being forced to stay with their parents for long might just be where the second derivative is beginning to turn.

frandroid3• 11 years ago

Because there was less rape when there were larger family. Right...

meric3• 11 years ago

Dude. From the article:

I had a boss once who knew he was sexist (also homophobic and transphobic), but was trying to get over it. He said some incredibly dumb things, like offering to have a company meeting at a strip club. He genuinely had bizarre concepts of what’s appropriate and inappropriate behavior. He was ashamed of this and really trying to improve. Listening to him quote the sexual harassment seminars was the saddest bit: on one hand he was really trying, but on the other, everything he was quoting made absolutely no sense. I frequently found him putting so much effort in where it didn’t really matter, like obsessively counting how many times he had asked a man vs a woman to carry heavy equipment. He always seemed overloaded with things to remember about “not being sexist” and afraid to get something wrong. It seemed almost heartless to risk getting him in trouble.

On the whole, however, I don’t hold against him all the inappropriate things he did. The best I could do was kindly remind my boss when something made me uncomfortable, but he always looked panicked when I did. I didn’t want to get him in trouble; in fact, half of my comments to him started with phrases like “you know people are going to take it the wrong way if they hear you saying that.” I wish my male peers had helped him more in this regard. I feel they could have done it without making my boss feel like he was being directly threatened with a huge HR complaint. It’s a real shame for our tech culture that there is no way to get somebody tutored about what is and isn’t appropriate without also landing them in deep trouble.

And yes I think with a larger family you're less likely to have men thinking its OK to corner a woman in office, because they'll have better upbringing. If you want to change culture the best chance you have is the educate your children because of all people they will be most receptive of your perspective.

Thanks for the snark anyway, I deserved it because I see family as a good thing to have, and as such I'm a rapist. And thanks for derailing the points OP and I were making. I deserve to be hanged by the side of the road, by social activists like you (according to your profile).

aaron695• 11 years ago

You run the risk when trying to say two issues, which many people consider separate, are related that you will just battle harden the opposing side. This is not a healthy article for discussion on either issue.

empressplay2• 11 years ago

I've heard men in the tech space who I would normally have considered very nice people say extremely sexist / homophobic / transphobic things. When I've called them out on it, they've been surprised that anyone was offended. As I've said, otherwise really nice guys, but they seem to have just thought such comments were acceptable in the context of the 'community'. Strange stuff.

randyrand8• 11 years ago

"they've been surprised that anyone was offended"

What did they say?

Mandatum2• 11 years ago

Have also seen casual sexism and racism used. I assume these people aren't racist or sexist to the point it would affect anything they do professionally, however it does detract from my view of them.

On the other hand I swear like a sailor, although I try to pull back from it in public - I occasionally slip. Especially when I'm dropping the C bomb (usually targeted at an inanimate object).

Is it unprofessional? Yes. Should I be judged? Fuck yes. Do I care?

Yep.

datashovel4• 11 years ago

"I have been raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months."

As much as I want to read this as hyperbole it doesn't look like that's the case. I guess it may be because I consider myself a level-headed person, and have (to the best of my knowledge) never even interacted with someone that vicious.

A person like that doesn't deserve just to be reprimanded. They should be in jail.

brandonmenc4• 11 years ago

he frequently came out with scary-harsh messages that had little relation to reality, like being worried about who he asked to help carry heavy equipment

That's "scary-harsh?"

Fact: women are not as strong as men. It's not even a question.

Go look at weightlifting records, if you don't believe that. Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps with just a moderate amount of training.

Disclaimer: I believe everything else cited in the article is absolutely horrible, but this particular thing is not.

Thriptic3• 11 years ago

Even elite, lifelong female powerlifters max out at weights that a man in the same weight class can throw up for reps with just a moderate amount of training.

That's not a true statement. A quick look at the IPF female world records shows an unequipped lifter putting up a 230 kg squat at 107 kg body weight. That would be considered almost an elite lift for a male of the same weight class, which requires far more than "moderate" training.

Regardless, the main point of your post holds true.

donw2• 11 years ago

Massively offtopic, but powerlifting records (http://www.usapowerlifting.com/records/national-championship...) support that yes, elite female powerlifters top out at what would be considered a rep weight for a male lifter in the same weight class.

brandonmenc4• 11 years ago

I'm not talking about world records - I'm talking about typical numbers that get put up in competition.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

No I meant that I wouldn't have given two shits who he asked to carry heavy stuff. I'll edit it to make that more clear.

brandonmenc4• 11 years ago

That makes more sense.

I can see how announcing every time, "I need a man!" would be grating, instead of just asking a guy to move the stuff without the fanfare.

yason2• 11 years ago

I cannot fathom how it is possible to get raped by a co-worker several times. This is obviously a sore point socially so I'll emphasize here that that's what I assume has happened because she wrote so. I'm just curious about how that could, in reality, happen?

I can think of a few cases where rape could plausibly happen in a work setting but I can't see how they could continue:

1) violent rape using physical force: there will be fighting back, injuries, scars, and blood from the assault, and the victim goes to file a report to the police, and gets to a doctor to be examined and her (his?) intimate cavities analyzed for the rapist DNA. These facts can be verified quite easily if the rapist is known.

2) a dinner, for example, at a work trip together with the co-worker went one step too far: depending on what actually happened this could translate back to 1) or fall in the grey area in which case the bare minimum that can be done is to not spend time with said co-worker alone again in non-public places.

A majority of rapes fall into domestic relationships, dating gone wrong, passing out in wrong company after too much alcohol, or other circumstances projected on an established or a potential sexual relationship, and these might traditionally be the cases where women generally don't report them as rapes for one reason or another. Maybe she is loyal to her abusing husband. Or maybe she thinks she gave wrong signals at the end of the date.

But work relations do not by default imply sexual relations: there's no pretense that could escalate in a horribly wrong way. This sounds stupid but, for example, you can't go to too many meetings and let someone interpret that as a "yes". So I'm just wondering that barring 1), the violent assault, how does this happen?

peteretep3• 11 years ago

I didn't read the whole article on my first read, and missed the most important parts, which are "What can I do?". So I'm going to throw HN etiquette to the wind, and just quote it verbatim.

    > What needs to change is three-fold.
    > 
    > The first thing needed is pretty simple: In all organizations, demand that there
    > exists a code of conduct and clear methodto report misconduct. Imagine right 
    > now that you have just witnessed something inappropriate in your workplace, at 
    > a conference or in a community. Do you have a place you could report it? Do you
    > trust that it would be handled properly, or would they just try to avoid
    > liability? Do you believe you would personally suffer for making such a report?
    > If you’re not comfortable with any of those answers, you have work to do.
    > Reconsider what systems have been created, and fight for ones that treat this
    > like a whistleblowing issue, not something to be “kept under control.”
    > 
    > Second, while there will always be truly malicious people, most people are just
    > don’t realize the harm of their action. There needs to be correction without
    > punishment for people who are not malicious. With such a mechanism in place,
    > people who see sexism in action can help fix it. At the same time, it allows
    > those who are doing things wrong to learn in a safe environment. For more about
    > this approach, check out some of the great articles about call-in culture. The
    > goal is simple here: help your well-intentioned friends figure out they are
    > hurting people without making it seem like a threat or shaming. It’s easiest for
    > you if you aren’t the one being wronged. This step is important because
    > whistleblowers need allies, and we need people to not be afraid of announcing
    > they are allies. This means two things: One, that we be welcoming and patient
    > with those striving to be better, and two, that our allies (and those of us
    > trying to lead the charge) be committed to self-improvement whenever the
    > opportunity presents.
    > 
    > Third, and most important, is making a serious personal commitment to solving
    > this. You’re tired of hearing about this “women in tech” stuff, and we’re tired
    > of living it, but there are some big issues here, and we’re not going to solve
    > them by pretending they don’t exist because we’re bored or afraid of them. We
    > need serious discussions, and we have to have educated opinions about what’s
    > wrong and how to fix it. We need to mull these ideas around until we come to
    > some combination of hard data and cultural consensus before we can get
    > meaningful change.
    > 
    > Making a personal commitment means forming an opinion on more than just the
    > broad concepts. It also requires learning about specific instances of
    > harassment. Spend enough time reading material from both sides to develop a
    > well-informed opinion, or be honest about not knowing enough. Don’t defend an
    > opinion that isn’t well thought through. Then, use that opinion to make sure
    > whistleblowing is taken seriously. When we fail to engage whistleblowing in our
    > own lives or in institutions we deal with, we’re hanging the whistleblowers out
    > to dry. At best, we allow them to be marked as “liabilities”; at worst, we leave
    > them to suffer from enemies we don’t care to protect them against.
    > 
    > For clarity, I’m going to now state my three specific requests:
    > 
    > 1. Make sure the systems to handle malicious abuses of power against women have
    > teeth, and that they seek to let the disenfranchised blow the whistle, rather
    > than simply “keeping stuff under control.”
    > 
    > 2. Help your well-intentioned peers who are still making mistakes do better
    > without threatening them or humiliating them.
    > 
    > 3. Make a public commitment to taking potential whistleblowers seriously. Commit
    > to educating yourself, to having an opinion, and, if you believe the
    > whistleblower’s claims might have merit, to helping. Live up to that commitment.
    >

kendallpark• 11 years ago

Every time an article like this gets posted, ignorant commenters pretty much prove the thesis of the article.

So far I have learned from HN commenters:

- a hetero male would never give a BJ to a superior male no matter what therefore it is hard to understand why a woman would feel coerced into do so.

- It is not possible/credible for a woman to be raped multiple times by a coworker.

- It is the clearly the woman's fault for being raped multiple times because she should've reported it the first time and/or known how to avoid her rapist in the future

- Women calling out sexual harassers in tech will hurt the cause of getting more women in tech, therefore they should stop

- "You can't simply cry abuse and magically learn data structures and algorithms. You can't tweet or sue (well, suing require hard evidence) your way to gainful employment as an engineer. You also don't need social support to study programming, it's a hobby you can master regardless of what you look like. How did you manage"

Disappointing.

imaginenore3• 11 years ago

Writing whiny articles is counterproductive. A rapist is not going to read it and think - "Uh oh, turns our rape is bad, I should stop".

If there's some abuse/assault/rape, you deal with it like in any other field - you call the police, and then you press charges, and then you sue. It's the only thing that really stops the abusers/rapists.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

Your argument is that writing an article doesn't stop rape. I find it true that writing an article won't fix my rape seeing as writing an article is not magic a time machine. However, I find it hard to believe that writing an article would not help reduce rape. Writing this article helps people understand rape is common and hopefully make people be more likely to believe the next person who comes forward and is ready to press charges.

How is writing an article counterproductive though? What am I hurting?

Jemaclus• 11 years ago

As a hetero male that is relatively new to management, what can I do to let my direct reports, indirect reports, and other colleagues know that they can report these kinds of things to me, and I will take them seriously? I don't have any women reporting directly to me right now, but it's very likely to happen over the next year, and I want to be proactive from the get-go.

Mandatum2• 11 years ago

Address or write about the issue publicly.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

Your eagerness to help is very good, and I think expressing that you care about these issues to your employees is great, but unless you tattoo it on your forehead, most employees won't know about your personal stances. Your personal stance will come much more into play when a complaint is brought to management level, since the odds of you being the one randomly handed it are pretty low.

I think the lowest hanging fruit in your own workplace will be to make sure the escalation structures that already exist are strong, protect those who are afraid, and have clearly defined expected fair outcomes for when a complaint is heard. Too often reports of problems just disappear into management and die down before anything happens because nobody's planned out what they are suppose to do if there is a problem.

fenomas• 11 years ago

#2 of the recommendations at the end (correction without punishment when appropriate) is an excellent point that I've rarely/never seen discussed in articles like this. It reminds me of a past job where a friend of mine silently put up with (relatively low-level) harassment because she didn't want to get the guy pilloried.

I think one confounding issue with sexism in tech is that companies find it so uncomfortable to talk about that they shy away from real analysis - adopting whatever policy comes to mind without seriously examining what the root cause was and whether they're addressing it.

The only solution is cogent discussion, like this excellent article.

anaximander• 11 years ago

It seems to me that a lot of women are left with pretty much two options in a lot of these situations: the lethal option, and submission. Calling the police or going to HR is the "lethal" option, meaning that, in all likelihood, there is going to be a big problem, and somebody is going to suffer.

I think the following scenario should be easy to understand (if not familiar) for most people: A person is walking down the street, when somebody approaches them and tells them to surrender their wallet. What would most people recommend in this situation? "Let them take your wallet, there's no point in risking your life"? What if the person being mugged revealed they were carrying a weapon capable of deadly force? Would you recommend that they use it to defend themselves?

Would your recommendation change if the threatening person in question had a position of default trust (e.g. a police officer), or a member of a powerful gang?

Now imagine a person in a scenario where, instead of just walking down the street, they are approached _in their office_ by somebody they trust, and instead of being asked for their wallet, they are asked for something incredibly more traumatic and unrecoverable, under the threat of complete financial destruction or possibly even physical harm.

I would never want to find out which way I would decide, in any of these situations. It's abominable that anyone should have to make that kind of choice, and it's worse still that it seems to be happening under our very noses and nobody can see it.

I think this article sets forth some very powerful, actionable ideas that are not only gender-neutral, but generally applicable in many other industries for many other classes of people who need options.

jrochkind111• 11 years ago

Wow. This is such a good piece. Seriously, this is incredibly well-thought out and well-written, in a very intentional way. Thanks to the author.

I am pleased that it's on the HN front page. And I was at first pleased to see such a long comments thread, that people were interested in discussing it.

But man, this discussion is depressing me. Arguing about the legal definition of rape, really, that's what HN feels like talking about in response to this piece?

MichaelGG2• 11 years ago

The discussion on the definition is because we're shocked that someone could be repeatedly raped without calling the cops. From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed. If someone were to say they were mugged several times by a colleague, we'd ask why the cops weren't called. Hence it's terribly upsetting to hear a colleague repeatedly does worse.

But if the definition of mugged was that someone's colleague repeatedly left them with $500 bar tabs that they felt compelled to pay, then we might say, yeah, I see the issue. It's not actually a legal mugging in such a case, even if it's effectively as bad (minus the trauma of having, say, a gun pointed at you).

jrochkind111• 11 years ago

"From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed."

For real, bro?

So let me get this straight, you're either upset that someone was mugged or stabbed without calling the cops, or you're upset (but maybe not as upset) that a colleague has done something worse than mugging or stabbing (a colleague of yours? that you know of? Have you considered calling the police?)

You can 'see the issue' with $500 bar tabs, but not with muggings? Or wait, by 'you can see the issue' you mean you don't believe the author, you think she's lying or confused when she writes 'rape', unless she says that she didn't really mean rape, in which case now you 'see the issue' and are wiling to support doing something about it? If you don't believe the author, it would be less confusing if you just said so. Or is it that you're only willing to do something about $500 bar tabs if you can first convince the person subject to them to stop calling it a mugging, cause that's the important thing here, eliminating that mugging/bar-tab confusion which is a scourge on our society? Me, I'd start out assuming if the author wrote rape she didn't mean a $500 bar tab. But the ironic thing is that most of the essay isn't actually about rape.

Man. Yeah, I'm not contributing to a useful conversation, I realize. I have no idea how the author manages to engage in this sort of conversation -- which the OP article is, an engagement in this sort of conversation, as well as the author's participation in this reddit thread -- while maintaining such an even temper, and always making the most charitable possible interpretation of everyone's comments (or at least successfully pretending to). I am impressed. I would need to work a lot harder than apparently I'm willing to, to pull that off.

AstroChimpHam• 11 years ago

Realistically, only bad things happen to the whistleblower. So when someone tries to discredit one, ask yourself — what could the whistleblower’s motive possibly be? They’re knowingly ruining their own lives.

Whistle blowers become folk heroes to a lot of people. No one cared what Edward Snowden, the NSA analyst had to say. Everyone cares what Edward Snowden, the whistleblower has to say. If you want that kind of popularity and respect, be a whistleblower. I'm by no means saying that's the motivation for all whistleblowers, but I'd be dumbfounded if it wasn't the motivation for some, and separating the two is frequently difficult.

gretful• 11 years ago

This is a sad article. There used to exist guidelines to beahvior, one being "don't fish off the company dock". Following that would eliminate almost all of the sexual harassment BS.

aviziva• 11 years ago

U.N. Finds ‘Alarmingly High’ Levels of Violence Against Women - About 35 percent of women worldwide — more than one in three — said they had experienced violence in their lifetime, whether physical, sexual, or both, the report finds. One in 10 girls under the age of 18 was forced to have sex, it says.

hashed3• 11 years ago

This girl is lying, the story doesn't make sense and everybody here are too nice to point it out so they try with this typical programmer passive nice way to point out how the story doesn't add up and how nobody actually faced this kind of environment anywhere.

Guys, have some balls, call bullshit when it's due. The tech industry is not more sexist than any other industry, the opposite. I have seen much more mischief in one coked up night among traders than my whole career in tech. And you know what, girls love those people and want to work with them or do other things with them, because they don't apologise and they call girls on their bullshit. That's why you will see more women in finance or law than in tech.

It's also easier and you don't have to spend your days and night secluded in front of a monitor. It is all excuses by women who don't want to put the time, effort and social price that it takes to become a good software developer. The women who do it right and i have worked with some during the years, don't complain about rape, they write great code and everybody respect them for that.

bluehat27• 11 years ago

What evidence do you have that the tech industry is less sexist than other places? Are you arguing that women like working with sexist people through your finance experience? Are you arguing that women who talk about rape don't have the respect of their peers and must be bad coders? I don't understand any of what you said.

hashed3• 11 years ago

What evidence you got that it is more sexist?

Girls don't like sexist people, they like confident people and I have learned it from life.

As for the last claim, I don't know how you read it from my comment.

somereddit• 11 years ago

http://www.reddit.com/user/bluehrair <- that's her reddit account

Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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