Junction design in the Netherlands [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpQMgbDJPok&feature=share

by bane • 12 years ago

91 41 12 years ago

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bmsleight• 12 years ago

Quite a good insight. The Dutch design for the motorist last. Hence cycling is prevalent.

rertrree• 12 years ago

The future of transportation is; separate different modes of transportation as much as possible.

When I was younger, I was regularly biking in between the car lanes( sometimes very risky ), skipping the bicycle paths since they were much slower or simply missing. I would almost always get there before I would with a car or a bus, and parking wasn't a problem. If the lanes were completely separated this could be done safely.

From my experience the roundabouts where the bicycle lane isn't separated, are the least safe for bicyclists, out of any type of intersection. I think the cause is that apart from normal intersections with stop signs or lights, where stopping is the usual procedure, the roundabouts are fluid where drivers stop much less and thus "prefer" not to stop or just think they have the right of way.

jules• 12 years ago

Just as important as junction design is driver education. In the Netherlands they focus very hard on driving safely with respect to cyclists. A big part of that is indeed roundabouts. An average driving course will make you practice driving safely on different types of roundabouts many many times, and the main focus is on avoiding accidents with cyclists. This is important because on most roundabouts the cyclists do have priority when they are going around the roundabout over a car who is leaving or entering the roundabout, and cyclists will take that priority without a second thought because they know that the driver will stop as he/she should.

This also means that it can be hard to pass a driving exam for foreigners who already have a drivers license in their home country. I know several people who have failed the exam multiple times despite driving for years in their home country.

wolfgke• 12 years ago

Rather off topic, but have you already considered that the obligation of a driver's license is against the hacker ethics and thus hackers should campaign for an abolition of driver's licenses?

Let me explain: In Levy's hacker ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics) it is formulated as the first point:

"Access to computers—and anything which might teach you something about the way the world works—should be unlimited and total. Always yield to the Hands-On Imperative!"

Since today's cars are computers on wheels (source: transcript of "The Coming War on General Computation" of Cory Doctorow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg from https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcrip...):

"We don't have cars anymore, we have computers we ride in; we don't have airplanes anymore, we have flying Solaris boxes with a big bucketful of SCADA controllers [laughter]; a 3D printer is not a device, it's a peripheral, and it only works connected to a computer; a radio is no longer a crystal, it's a general-purpose computer with a fast ADC and a fast DAC and some software."

this rule should also apply to cars. Also for point 3 of Levy's hacker ethics

"Mistrust authority—promote decentralization"

it is clear how an mandatory driver's licenses violates it, since there is a central authority which allows/disallows driving.

To state one thing clear: If you want to drive a vehicle, I strongly recommend taking some driving lessons. But making a driver's license madatory is a clear violation of the hacker ethics and any hacker or supporter of the hacking scene should make in no uncertain manner clear that they espouse an abolition of mandatory driver's licenses.

eCa• 12 years ago

Roundabouts differ wildy in design, sometimes a separate bike path is better and sometimes its better to be unseparated. In my experience (I've biked in several European countries) the most important parts of unseparated roundabout biking is to take the lane (to reduce the right-hook risk) and signal clearly.

About the video; the thing that sets Netherlands (and Denmark, IIRC) is that bike lanes have right-of-way. Separating bike traffic into a generally slower infrastructure, and then slowing it down further by giving cars right-of-way is contraproductive - if the goal is to increase biking.

agumonkey2• 12 years ago

Younger I used to do the same, that was before I learned to drive. I'll never ride that way ever again. It's dangerous for everyone, as a driver I have to anxiously check every bike because they may cross streams at any point in the future.

pm246012• 12 years ago

Yes as a driver you should anxiously check for cyclists - just like you should check for kids and other people that can be killed by your driving.

I teach my kids that their number one job when driving is to not kill anyone.

markvdb• 12 years ago

"From my experience" really goes against empirical evidence in many cases. This happens with traffic safety just as well.

The Dutch have built a system that avoids several 9/11s in traffic deaths per year. Their traffic safety policy is evidence based, more so than most places in the world. I wish local politicians here and everywhere else would learn from it more!

radicalbyte• 12 years ago

It's not just the roads, it's the whole infrastructure. I live in a modern estate (cira 1990); from here I can cycle to three town centers within 15-20 minutes. Our local shopping center is 5 minutes cycle, or 7-8 minutes by car.

My wife cycles to work, and takes our 15 month old to daycare on her bike. Next year I'll be able to cycle too. Can't wait :)

bane2• 12 years ago

This is how to do it. Clean separation of road vehicles from bikes, none of this painted line in the parking lane nonsense. Engineer for the most vulnerable, give space for everybody.

Even as a driver, this is how I want things to be.

mrbman7• 12 years ago

Amusing no one wears helmets.

Semiapies• 12 years ago

I've heard serious arguments to the effect that the American insistence on helmets for cyclists deters cycling.

plantain• 12 years ago

Why would they need to when the biggest danger factor (cars) is removed as a threat?

rapala3• 12 years ago

Because car or no car the head still goes crack when it hits the road. To me it seems obvious to reduce a risk of fatal injury with something as simple as a helmet.

louwrentius• 12 years ago

We Dutch are basically born on a bycicle and learn to ride it at a young age. Everybody can cycle, it's so...ingrained.

almost 17 milion people. 200 deaths a year. 65000 accidents required doctor treatment (maybe we are not zo great at cycling as we think). 15000 end up in a hospital. Especially old people tend to get killed.

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten-en-publicaties/public...

Still, overall 570 traffic deaths (including cars and pedestrians etc) for 2013 is quite good.

IkmoIkmo• 12 years ago

Puts us in the top 15 with the usual suspects. United Kingdom was a surprising one for me though, would not have expected it to be better than say Finland or the Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-re...

joepie91_• 12 years ago

As somebody who lives in the Netherlands, I've not really found a reason for helmets to be used. Dutch people are generally very competent at cycling (and other non-motorized transport-on-wheels like inline skates).

I've personally also never known anybody who experienced a traffic accident where a helmet would have helped them - it's usually broken legs, scrapes on knees, etc.

m0nty• 12 years ago

The obsession with helmets in many countries is born of an idea that violence on the roads is inevitable. It's a bit like responding to knife or gun crime by saying everyone should wear kevlar vests, problem solved! Rather than insisting that knives and guns are not used in public spaces.

Some people have real problems grasping this. Cars are seen as inherently dangerous, pedestrians and everyone else should (ideally) stay off the roads, and nobody should challenge our "right" to drive where and when we like. But driving is still a choice, albeit coerced since there are so few alternatives, and that choice has profound implications for others. Why should I wear protective clothing because you choose to drive a vehicle which puts me in danger? In the Netherlands, to respond to your point, they have largely eliminated motoring-related danger for cyclists.

If anyone is interested in the development of Dutch cycling infrastructure, this is an excellent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o (How the Dutch got their cycle paths, 6m 29s)

David Hembrow has an informative blog about all things cycling in Holland:

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/

ar-jan• 12 years ago

There are good reasons for not making helmets required. See e.g. this overview: Bicycle helmets and the law, http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full

bane2• 12 years ago

http://vimeo.com/43038579

bradleyboy• 12 years ago

Wonder if cyclists there optimize their route for right turns (a la UPS) since it is so convenient in this setup.

pootsbook• 12 years ago

Most definitely. I’ve been cycling in the Netherlands for three months now and I've found myself instinctively opting for a quasi-circular route when going to and from a destination to ensure maximum flow via right-hand turns.

svisser• 12 years ago

If you want to learn more, this video also shows a good foreign perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GA901oGe4

gpvos• 12 years ago

It gets even better. Look at this innovative traffic light for cyclists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiznpGdVsiY&feature=share

DonHopkins• 12 years ago

Hans Monderman was a famous Dutch traffic engineer who hated traffic signs, which he considers an admission of failure.

He said: "The trouble with traffic engineers is that when there's a problem with a road, they always try to add something. To my mind, it's much better to remove things."

Wikipedia: Hans Monderman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Monderman

Project for Public Places: Hans Monderman http://www.pps.org/reference/hans-monderman

Urban Design London and Urban Design Group Multimedia: Hans Monderman: http://www.urbannous.org.uk/Hans-Monderman-Presentation.htm

Roads Gone Wild: http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html

Hans Monderman on the Importance of Human Interaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOH9-DgJdTo

His philosophy reminds me of the premise of "Magic Ink: Information Software and the Graphical User Interface": "I argue that interactivity is actually a curse for users and a crutch for designers, and users’ goals can be better satisfied through other means."

Interactivity is a failure state of user interfaces that could have predicted what the user wanted by context and history, and presented it to them without demanding so much of their time and attention.

Magic Ink: Information Software and the Graphical User Interface http://worrydream.com/MagicInk/

Junction design in the Netherlands [video]

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