The badge of ignorance

https://medium.com/@emilepetrone/the-badge-of-ignorance-185c85ac9a30

by emilepetrone • 12 years ago

31 21 12 years ago

chton2• 12 years ago

I'm saddened every time I see supposed experts or 'knowers' react with disdain to simple questions. Even if you've completely forgotten that you were once the ignorant one, shouldn't you at least be happy and helpful when somebody else wants to learn your craft? What is that makes some people so inclined to act as if they're the superior one?

thirdtruck4• 12 years ago

It's the "Curse of knowledge" that haunts all experts, and which they have to consciously struggle against.

Our brains optimize very aggressively when it comes to mastery. Our old "the beginner's mind" neural connections are some of the first to go. The ability to empathize (via modeling said mind) is "optimized away" with them.

People say that "Those who cannot do, teach," but the corollary -- "Those who do, cannot teach" -- often applies, as well.

kyro3• 12 years ago

Nice scientific explanation to being an unkind asshole.

chton2• 12 years ago

I'm not sure this explanation holds water. Plenty of experts have managed to keep their beginner's mind, and they are often the very best in their field. In lots of fields, keeping an open, learning mind is an important part of being considered a leader, so it should never be 'optimized away'.

I'm also not saying anything about empathizing, even just an intellectual appreciation for somebody learning your matter should be enough to not lash out and be a dick. And it surprised me that there are so many that fail to bring up even that little appreciation.

judk2• 12 years ago

That's a converse, not a corollary. Converse isn't always true, corollary is.

dmritard96• 12 years ago

as a founder at an early stage hwstartup, we have already helped other founders figure out the pieces that we are a few weeks ahead on. In a world full of open software and hardware, its nice to see a call for open mindedness.

freditup• 12 years ago

I find that I sometimes act like the 'assholes' in this essay. However, the attitude of the person asking the question seems to affect me a lot: I tend to be a lot more of a jerk to people who have a very high opinion of their skills and ask beginner questions than to people who readily admit that they're just learning.

Why? Because I like the implicit acknowledgement of my superiority? Because people who think they're great when they aren't are annoying? Who knows. Note that I'm not condoning my own behavior here, just observing it.

kyro3• 12 years ago

The people who react that way towards not just ignorance, but inquisitiveness, are plainly assholes. If you do this, you are an asshole, too.

I experienced this sort of condescension all through medical school, and my experience is not unique. There is nothing more embarrassing, deflating, and discouraging than being made to feel like an idiot in front of your peers because you could not recall a piece of information, or because a question of yours was deemed too basic and simple for an expert to waste their time answering. That is how you stunt curiosity and instill destructive self-doubt. My most beloved teachers are those who exercised patience and did not treat any question as beneath them. I didn't take advantage of it. In fact, I was more motivated to learn and to return to discuss new ideas and concepts.

This reflects on a wider social view in which coming across as ignorant or not knowing the answer to a question is perceived as a sign of weakness. If you don't know something, you don't admit it and instead bullshit your way to perceived expertise.

My point is, people who do this are a net negative to your growth and society at large. It's taken me a while to grow comfortable with not knowing a lot, and to accept that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. When I encounter people like this, I view them as nothing more than assholes who are not worth interacting with, and move on to finding the answer I need. What saddens me is that there are many who are stopped dead on their path to learning.

/rant

Energy1• 12 years ago

The people who react that way towards not just ignorance, but inquisitiveness, are plainly assholes.

Anecdotally speaking, such people know more than a beginner, but are very, very far from being an expert themselves.

On a board dedicated to learning English you can see people who can barely speak English scoff at "noobs" who can't tell the difference between "some" and "any". Math forums are full of people who never progressed beyond undergrad math laughing at those who have hard time distinguishing between contrapositive and contradiction.

It's a symptom of mediocrity and the vast majority of us, humans, are mediocre.

grayclhn• 12 years ago

Anecdotally speaking, such people know more than a beginner, but are very, very far from being an expert themselves.

I've met some assholes who are experts. It's just that real experts are rare, asshole or not.

vinceguidry• 12 years ago

Also a lot of these basic questions can involve quite a bit of complexity. Take a look at the debate in this SO thread:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1035008/what-is-the-diffe...

Plenty of very smart people have spent lots of time thinking about basic questions.

A_COMPUTER• 12 years ago

I guess I see both sides of this. A Python programming group isn't necessarily an intro to programming group and may expect people to come in already knowing general programming concepts. On the other hand there are a hundred good ways of dealing with a beginner that you can use rather than making them feel like human garbage. I recognize this as a very real problem so I sympathize with the author.

tux33• 12 years ago

Here's my oh-so important and unpopular opinion, because I feel like wasting 10 minutes.

If you’ve ever tried to learn a new skill, you’ve experienced that range of reaction.

I actually haven't, because in the case of let's say, programming, I learned most everything myself. I read and google'd instead of bothering other people for every little problem.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk - honest - but hearing the same very simple questions asked again and again is tiring. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the "jack asses". Maybe they act like this for a reason, they are humans just like you after all.

I know that I don't mind helping but it sometime feels "like people never learn", imho that's often why others won't help you or will groan at your cluelessness. Most of the time you could google your questions and get an answer immediately, that's what I did and that's still what I do. This is especially true for Python, what you're learning. You can often just copy paste a working piece of code from the very first result, no thinking involved.

The difference between the knowledgeable and the ignorant is that the knowledgeable took it on the chin, and kept going.

That's where I disagree. If you really need help, and if you at least tried to find a solution, mention it and people will help you. I will personally go out of my way to help you if it looks like you actually want and try to learn.

Questions like “What’s the difference between a list and a set?” and “A server does what?” show that you haven't done your homework ! It's a bit rude to expect people to spoonfeed you all the way and then call them assholes when they get bored of it.

When people scoff at your questions, just move on until you find the answer. Know that up front, and when you see it, ignore it.

Or perhaps, try to understand why they scoff at your question in the first place. Calling them "ass holes" and ignoring the issue seems a bit short sighted.

Just know when people balk at your badge, it’s means you are on the right path. Keep pushing.

Maybe "Try smarter not harder" ?

I'll finally just point you to this thing (http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) which is a tad extreme in my opinion, but makes its point extremely clear if you can manage to read through it without calling the author a pretentious asshole and just closing the tab.

kyro3• 12 years ago

There's a difference between "Google/Wikipedia will give you some great starting points to answer that question" and "Have you heard of Google..?" The difference is in tone: the first is encouraging and enabling, the second is demeaning. Dismiss it as trivial, but it matters hugely to a learner.

tux33• 12 years ago

I totally agree, and I'm not happy with people who spam RTFM and lmgtfy.com either, but I still think that they have a point.

The problem is the sheer number of people who do not know they can just use Wikipedia and Google, all of they who ask one question and either never reply again or ignore advice no matter the form.

But perhaps you're right, maybe if the "assholes" as Emile Petrone call them tried to be more gentle, people would actually listen to them.

bgun• 12 years ago

I actually haven't, because in the case of let's say, programming, I learned most everything myself. I read and google'd instead of bothering other people for every little problem.

There are many ways to learn, and not everyone is capable of teaching themselves complex skills (even with access to Google). For many, social learning - being taught - is crucial.

It's a bit rude to expect people to spoonfeed you all the way and then call them assholes when they get bored of it.

Your opinions aren't unpopular because they're wrong, and I sympathize with some of what you're saying, but statements like this (the word "spoonfeed" to describe the answer to an uneducated question in particular makes me uncomfortable) do make you sound like an asshole and someone not to be approached by a social learner.

tux33• 12 years ago

There are many ways to learn, and not everyone is capable of teaching themselves complex skills (even with access to Google). For many, social learning - being taught - is crucial.

And that's perfectly fine, it's not my place to tell people how they should be learning. What I'm trying to say, is that the simple skills, the basics, the 101 is something you should be able to find on your own. Because often it really is the first result on Google, without exaggerating. I don't mind at all teaching and talking to people, that's much more enjoyable and does work better for some poeple.

but statements like this (the word "spoonfeed" to describe the answer to an uneducated question in particular makes me uncomfortable) do make you sound like an asshole and someone not to be approached by a social learner.

I'm sorry about that. I'm being particularly blunt to get my point across, maybe I shouldn't.

What bothered me is that it seemed to me, and perhaps I'm wrong, that the author was being unfairly aggressive and judgmental without trying to understand the position of the very people he's insulting.

The badge of ignorance

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