What is the software engineering scene like in Amsterdam?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8214824

by mdn0420 • 12 years ago

17 17 12 years ago

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I'm considering a move from San Francisco to Amsterdam. Obviously it's quite easy to find work as a software engineer in SF, but what is the scene like in Amsterdam? Is it easy to find work as a non-Dutch speaking expat? Any general tips for making such a transition?

Thanks in advance.

apineda• 12 years ago

I had a brief time in Amsterdam last summer during my summer travels and it seemed to be a good scene, albeit a little scattered. That being said there are some co-working hubs like A-Lab and meetups like Appsterdammers (http://www.meetup.com/Appsterdam/) and their weekly event Meeten En Drinken amongst other more formal events. Mike Lemur (@bmf on twitter) founded both those and is THE guy I would point you to as he made a similar move from SF to Amsterdam just a few years back. It was a very inclusive vibe and a lot of fun.

benzesandbetter• 12 years ago

I'm also from SF, and for me, few places in the world can approach the Bay Area in terms of innovation and technology. For me, Amsterdam is one of the places that comes close. I've been living back and forth between SF/Marin and Amsterdam since 2006. You'll find a buzzing community there around software development, entrepreneurship, and innovation. (However, if you're ever looking for VC funding, the Bay Area is leagues better than the Randstad.)

If you're looking for an employee-style relationship: To work legally, you'll want to find a Dutch company to sponsor you so that you can get a work permit. Another option is to get hired in the states by a MNC and get transferred.

Personally, I elected create a corporation in California, hire myself, and get Dutch clients for our company. I travel enough that I can make due with the 90 day out of every 6-months visa-free Schengen option. Dutch companies tend to like to do business with other culturally Dutch companies. (Technology companies, however, are generally much more progressive in this regard.) If you go this route, definitely have a Dutch-language web presence and consider having a Dutch-speaking sales person as these will work wonders.

Also, if you're into cars, one very cool thing about NL and neighboring Germany is that you can rent proper german cars, like M3's and Porsche turbos. In NL the traffic can be a bit crowded and you have to watch out for the camera boxes (Gatso's). I recommend taking the ICE train over to Düsseldorf. They have a very nice selection of cars at the DÜS airport and the A3 is great for some autobahn therapy.

Let me know if there's anything or anyone I can help you get connected with in NL.

howardtang• 12 years ago

Hi, how can I get in touch? I'm moving to Amsterdam next month, but would also be interested to chat about your experiences on continuous travel.

kohnke• 12 years ago

Send me a pm at baskohnke (at) gmail . com. I am Dutch and run a YC start up in SF. Happy to tell you more about the Dutch scene.

dekhn• 12 years ago

Please just reply on the thread so that everybody can benefit from your knowledge.

csmdev5• 12 years ago

Haven't been to San Francisco. So I can only give you my view of Amsterdam. And it's pretty disappointing for software engineers.

Basically, web development and mobile are king. And not in the good way. Both startups and bigger companies are focused on it. So if you're not into them, you will have a tough time finding a job. There are some engineering jobs too. But they are usually for support purposes. Banking, automotive, industrial etc. You work on software that supports another product. And you're basically non-essential personnel.

The startup scene is not very impressive. A small hub, an accelerator once a year and some meetups (mostly web dev). However, you will find plenty of coworking spaces. And there aren't many software companies either. Amsterdam is a small city. You will easily finish going through all of them in a couple of days.

When it comes to expats, Amsterdam is a city of self-employment. You either do some freelancing, work a low-paying job in hospitality or work on your startup. There are some expats with higher paying jobs. But they are the lucky ones. It takes a while until you find something. There are plenty of expats and dutch people looking for a job. And layoffs have become a common occurrence since the crisis finally hit the Netherlands. So trying to find something will be pretty hard.

So if you want to move, bring cash. You're going to need it.

arisAlexis• 12 years ago

that is not good advice. developer meetings through meetup are happening almost every day. there are a lot of companies that produce software and you don't need to be a freelancer (why come to Amsterdam to freelance?). The above text applied very well to people that are looking for common jobs like business managers,salesmen,hospitality professionals etc. If you consider yourself a good programmer with a good CV come to Amsterdam or alternatively go to Berlin or London.

mdn04202• 12 years ago

Do you have any insight on what the average salary is for a software engineer with 5-6 years of experience?

csmdev5• 12 years ago

I lived in Amsterdam for the most part of last year. And dev meetups are rare and it's usually web stuff or startups.

There are only two types of meetings that happen almost every day:

1. The Appsterdam hub meetings. And they aren't for software engineers. It's mostly random startup people networking in the hopes of finding something.

2. The expat meetings. And it's mostly random expats networking in the hopes of finding something. Or at least trying to have a good time.

If you know any software engineering meetings, post them here so everybody who is interested can save some time. But I agree with Berlin and London. You can have more success there. Bigger cities with a lot more companies and communities.

century192• 12 years ago

This isn't the experience I have had. I work in an Enterprise team of 10 Developers and the last few years we have always hired from outside NL as there is a shortage of Developers. English is the business language and not just in IT departments so hiring from abroad is standard.

The most objective way to look at this is probably the 30% ruling. 30% of your gross salary is not taxed, and you are taxed as if you had earned 70% of your gross. (To the original poster, you would get this benefit if you are any way experienced.) Local Dutch people obviously don't like this setup (why is he taxed less than me?) and political parties would love to get rid of it (a real vote winner) but the economy needs it as there is a shortage of workers.

csmdev5• 12 years ago

What does your team work on? Is software the main product or you're just a software division in a company with a different focus? Also, what percentage of the hired expats are British?

easy_rider• 12 years ago

I'm a Freelance webdev living in Amsterdam for my whole live (27 years).

Worked for a few successful start-ups that moved on to become big players in their industry. As said, most software development is web/app based (startups). E-Commerce and mobile to be specific.

That said there is ample opportunity for Java/C++ engineers. These trades are often sparse here and I always see a lot of Vacancies in that area.

If you are unsure, check out some dutch vacancy sites. E.g [1] (I have no idea why they won't translate their site, most employers value English speaking devs). Companies I've worked at are always mixed ethnically. I've worked with devs from Ukraine, Romania, Britain etc. More and more companies are flying over people from other parts of Europe. System engineers are always welcomed as well. Even in web dev where it looks like there is a lot of saturation, highly experienced people are always in demand. Even in PHP I often get messaged for jobs primarily for Symfony2 experience.

Overall though you will probably find the pay to be not so great compared to The Valley and for example London.. I would advice you to proceed cautiously and start sending in your open resumé or applying to some jobs through the web and get a feel at least.

[1] www.itjobboard.nl

mdn04202• 12 years ago

Thanks for the advice. What would you say the average salary for an engineer with 5-6 years of experience is? I'm trying to get a sense of what kind of rent I'll be able to afford.

csmdev5• 12 years ago

Rent is about 1000 euros per month with everything included. Maybe less, maybe more depending on the area.

ariejan• 12 years ago

It's awesome. If you're doing Rails or Java, get in touch, I may be able to make you a nice offer :-) ariejan at ariejan.net

What is the software engineering scene like in Amsterdam?

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