Tell HN: Jonathan Dale's Cancer Fundraiser isn't Doing Well & Time's Running Out

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7961133

by rpm4321 • 12 years ago

94 32 12 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

This was posted on HN a few months ago and got a lot of attention at the time (751 points), but I figured I would post a reminder to everyone about Jonathan Dale's cancer fundraiser. There's less than a month remaining and they only have about 10% of their goal:

https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/w704/beating-cancer-one-dollar-at-a-time-with-jonathan-dale

Original post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7390638

BenC88• 12 years ago

Clickable: https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/w704/beating-cancer-o...

fnordsensei• 12 years ago

Donated.

NotOscarWilde2• 12 years ago

European here; I've clicked the link and read the introductory text but I am still not fully informed, so here I ask.

Why is Jonathan's health insurance not covering the treatment? Is it because of the terminality? Or because of the way the US health insurance system works?

I have very little experience with American insurance systems, but it seems that the public is asked to fund the costs of a family which was let down by the insurance system, and which desperately asks for more time with Jonathan.

Personally, this makes me less inclined to donate; donating would feel like I am throwing money at a problem which a foreign country (one of the richest in the world) is not able to fix itself.

AndrewKemendo2• 12 years ago

Interesting take and I don't necessarily disagree. My guess is that most people who are donating don't have wider policy on their mind, only helping someone fill an individual need.

Something analogous to a Red Cross/Crescent which does not want to influence policy directly, only to help individuals.

sqrt17• 12 years ago

I think the comparison to Red Cross/Red Crescent is not quite up to the point: my impression is that, for some things that Europeans see as a matter to be regulated (i.e., force health insurances to include "expensive" patients in their coverage, have the state provide subsidies) people in the US rely on local communities (churches, clubs) or their social network. Hence the notion of "paying it forward": by giving to your community, the community acts as an insurance and is likely to reciprocate if or when you are in a bad position.

This is why, for many people, it's a big deal to be an atheist: if the main community for you is the church, you're not just foregoing religious and moral support, but also the material kind.

It's certainly an understandable reaction to point out that the problem is bigger than one person on giveitforward.org, and that the US health insurance system with insurers being given cheap excuses like coverage ending with your employment contract (rendering your health coverage useless whenever you have a severe disease) or allowing insurers to retroactively (sometimes by 10 or 20 years) invoke a preexisting-condition clause means that many more people have to beg the last months of subsistence off of their friends, family, and community. Or just sit in a corner and die, if they're not well-connected socially.

gress2• 12 years ago

I think criticizing the US Healthcare system is perfectly reasonable.

But it sounds as though you think that not donating to this individual will have some indirect effect on improving things for other people in the future.

NotOscarWilde2• 12 years ago

But it sounds as though you think that not donating to this individual will have some indirect effect on improving things for other people in the future.

No, if you have the funds to both campaign for a systemic solution and help the individuals that are currently in trouble because of the systemic problem, then you are of course free to do so.

Suggesting that one is more important of our time, energy and money than the other is, however, a valid opinion [1].

[1]: It is valid if my assumptions about the insurance not covering Jonathan and other such cases were true; that may not be so.

Zarkonnen4• 12 years ago

I have to agree. This keeps on happening: fundraisers for people in the US whose insurance is failing to cover their medical bills. Such fundraisers only work if there's a community (such as HN) to appeal to. If your path in life did not lead you into a community to fundraise from, you're just plain doomed.

And I'm going to get very political for a moment here: There is a lot of enthusiasm on HN for "market forces", and a lot of hero worship of people who could build their wealth in part because things like a lack of decent healthcare make doing business in the US very cheap.

I wish Jonathan Dale nothing but the best. Supporting him because he needs it is great and compassionate, but supporting him because he's One Of Us, when HN is usually so happy to cheerlead for a system that caused this in the first place? It makes me cringe.

lisper2• 12 years ago

It shouldn't make you cringe. This is actually (part of) the whole point of Free-Market/Libertarian/Randian/Austrian/Lassez-Faire economics, that people can elect to join social groups for exactly this kind of mutual support rather than being forced to participate in a single support network run by the government. (Note: I personally don't subscribe to this theory, but it is certainly defensible.)

hluska2• 12 years ago

Unfortunately, issues like this are not confined to the United States. Both my Aunt and Stepmother are currently fighting cancer. We're Canadian, thus we have universal health care, but each province is responsible for administering its own prescription drug plan. Thus, depending on where you live and your income, you may or may not have decent coverage for cancer drugs. Complicating the situation, there is often a gap between when a drug is approved and when that drug is available for coverage.

In our case, we are very lucky. Both my Aunt and stepmother have good drug plans that refund their expenses. However, their treatments still cost thousands of dollars out of pocket. They're relatively lucky - they're both seniors who were well prepared and highly insured. Even luckier, they don't have dependents.

I can imagine many, many circumstances under which someone with a family, even in our relatively good health care environment simply could not afford many of the drugs they need. For example, in many cases, complete drug coverage is a premium offering through private insurers. I'm not sure how many healthy people in their mid-30s would really consider premium health insurance a huge priority, especially if they have families. Rather, the tendency could be to assume that their good health will hold and they won't need insurance.

In response to your valid criticism, I do agree with most of what you say. But, I would also argue that cancer is an asshole and, if I were in a situation where saving my life could bankrupt my family, I'd sure pray that my community put helping me out above making a political statement about the quality of prescription drug coverage in Canada!!

jey• 12 years ago

Both my Aunt and stepmother have good drug plans that refund their expenses. However, their treatments still cost thousands of dollars out of pocket.

Why is it structured this way? Why don't they just directly bill the insurance without requiring large outlays upfront from the patient?

jimmydddd• 12 years ago

US citizen here.

I have friends and family in Europe and Canada. One relative in Canada was told that they would have to wait several months for an x-ray needed for diagnosis (and might die by that time), so came to the US for treatment instead. A relative in Europe was told that he was too old to qualify for treatment, so he came to the US for treatment instead.

From what I've been told, some treatment options that are expensive or not-fully covered in the US may not even be available at all in Europe or Canada.

So, while the US has much work to do, I think the more socialized systems of some other countries are not better in all respects.

nilsimsa2• 12 years ago

Even with a good health insurance plan, there are still copay and deductable to consider when you have a major illness that requires hospitalization. This can add up to $1K-$4K per year of treatment depending on how good a plan you have. Then you have all the time and money incurred by your family is getting you better. Time off from work, traveling to visit you, staying with you.

If you are lucky you have a good insurance plan and your employer provides disability insurance that covers your lost salary which recovering.

ma2rten• 12 years ago

That is exactly the point...

In no other developed country (or should I say in no developed country) do people die because they can not pay their medical bills.

The system has to change.

themgt• 12 years ago

His blog:

https://d4l3.com/blogs/darthclue

darthclue2• 12 years ago

I am quite honestly at a loss for words here. When this originally made it to HN I found out about it because I was awakened by the sound of my wife sobbing on the couch next to me. I had only been out of the hospital a few days and was sleeping on the couch at that time because I lacked the energy to do much of anything beyond sit there and force food into my mouth. At that time, we saw a huge amount of support from the HN community and I was humbled and honored that so many people stepped forward and demonstrated what I believe is the most important thing in this world. That is, that if we are to survive as a species we must unite and cooperate and, whenever and wherever possible, help those in need.

Over the last few months, I've finally found a good balance between food and the medicines I must take to simply survive. I am still paying ongoing medical costs which insurance is paying a large chunk of, however, insurance doesn't pay for everything. Just some rough numbers based on costs submitted to insurance shows that a single day in the hospital is roughly $3,000/day and a single gamma knife treatment is roughly $100,000. The gamma knife treatment is the best available option for treating tumors in my brain, however, getting that approved by insurance isn't easy. The last time it happened, the neurosurgeon had to submit a written statement indicating that my life expectancy was at least 6 months beyond the time of treatment or they wouldn't pay.

The money from the fundraiser is being used in one of 3 ways: Medical expenses, Putting food on the table, or final expenses which include funeral costs and paying off the house and car debt so that my family will have a roof over their heads when my time comes. For those that have given, I will never be able to say thank you enough nor will I ever be able to repay you. I do hope that your generosity will be repaid to you ten-fold in some way. I've seen many of you give small amounts and many of you give large amounts, however, the common theme is that you are giving what you can while also wishing you could give me. From me to you, whatever you give is precious. Even it is only $5 it is precious because you have taken the time to give and demonstrated that you believe in providing hope and compassion to others and because those $5 donations add up quickly when it is thousands of people giving.

I lost my grandmother this month from cardiac arrest. Because of my health, I couldn't attend her funeral. That was and continues to be a very painful thing for me. She was always there to make sure I was taken care of and even spent several weeks with us helping to keep me fed and motivated despite her own health failing her. She passed at 80 years, 8 months, and 8 days of age and the legacy she left me was to help others as much as you can. Even though my own health is failing, I am doing whatever I can to bring attention to others whose situations are just as bad, if not worse, as mine.

At this point, even though my prognosis has not changed, I am feeling better. I still have trouble moving around as I run out of energy quickly and fight pain constantly. There is still no cure for the type of cancer I have and the treatments I am on will likely cease to be effective at some point. While there is likely to be a point at which all treatment options have been exhausted, I continue to have hope that a cure may be found before that happens. Quite honestly, even if it meant that I was physically unable to do anything and even if it meant that I had lost a substantial amount of my cognitive function, if I was alive I would be fine. That is truthfully the only thing that I have ever wanted. I simply want to live, to watch my children grow, and to die of old age with my soul mate by my side.

I want to bring your attention to some other individuals whose situations are, I think, worse than mine.

First, there is Nathalie. She is a 15 year old who is battling a rare form of cancer. She is trying to get access to a drug which could very well save her life and might even save mine one day. She meets all of the requirements except for her age. Because she isn't 18, she can't get the drug until it's been approved by the FDA. You can learn more about her situation at http://www.4nathalie.com/

Second, there is Ben. He is a father of 4 who was diagnosed with cancer of the Brain and central nervous system in December and given weeks to live. He's fought an impossible battle and managed to exceed doctors expectations. At this point, he has exhausted all available treatment options and may soon meet his end. I'm not entirely sure what the needs of his family are at this time, however, he does have a fundraiser at http://www.gofundme.com/ben-fights-brain-cancer

If you feel the need to give but are unable to give to more than one of us, I would ask that you give to either Nathalie or Ben. Although my family does need the help, I want to leave this world better than I found it and that starts by helping others. If my time comes, I would rather that my legacy be that of someone who helped others rather than that of someone who begged for help as others in need were left standing alone.

Thank you again for all that you have done for me and my family. I know that I will never be able to repay your kindness.

Jonathan Dale

darthcluespose• 12 years ago

Still could use all the help we can get thanks to all so far that have found it in there hearts to pay it forward and help out our family in this time of need thankyou from us is not a lot but it what I have to give hope to some day give it forward to someone else in there time of need

throwaway26454• 12 years ago

Here is $15. It isn't much and I would give you more but my Irish income per year is erm, peasant level.

Despite many members of HN being wealthy and/or well connected there are just as many of us that struggle to pay rent let alone for medical expenses. At the same time I and I'm sure others appreciate that this kind of thing is a very lonely and depressing experience with many dark thoughts. So here is a bro shoulder squeeze. Any of us could be in the same situation as you, it is a fact. Good luck man.

Aside:

I think it would be nice if us geeks/hackers had a healthcare plan for our community. A HN healthcare fund that both covered the basics in different countries and also pulled together contacts and information about new treatments for illness/disease, some holistic approach to be intelligently hitting the 'big killers' that are likely to strike.

If you think about it, many of the things likely to 'whack' us are going to be similar due to lifestyle. Overweight, back problems just as a typical example. If somebody out in SV thinks it a good idea then mention it to PG. Then ycombinator could not just be a incubator, but take us from cradle to grave! :)

darthclue2• 12 years ago

From my family to you and yours, thank you. While you may have only given $15, you gave it and that in and of itself means just as much as any donation if not more. I wish there were better alternatives available to help offset medical expenses, however, despite being considered one of the wealthiest nations on the planet those that control that wealth see no need to share it. Our politicians vote in favor of those who have the money to keep them elected and see no need to actually care for the rest of us. Honestly, one of the statements I made to some friends and family earlier today was that I a) hope to survive and beat this cancer and b) win the lottery so that I can give away millions to help others who have found them in similar situations. I see no need to accumulate material possessions or wealth while others suffer. It's not in my nature to condone suffering and in the last few months I've found so many others who have had their own series of unfortunate events similar to mine which have left them in horrible places. Whether me meet our goal or not, the world will eventually know my story and those that have helped me. So once again, thank you for both the donation and the shoulder squeeze. I am humbled to know you and honored to benefit from your kindness.

darthcluespouse2• 12 years ago

Here's to hope you still have it in your heart to help out thankyou to all have given so far look beyond the systems we have so payitforword and may u be blessed beyond your years

darthcluespouse2• 12 years ago

Tell HN: Jonathan Dale's Cancer Fundraiser isn't Doing Well & Time's Running Out 74 points by rpm4321 1 day ago | 29 comments This was posted on HN a few months ago and got a lot of attention at the time (751 points), but I figured I would post a reminder to everyone about Jonathan Dale's cancer fundraiser. There's less than a month remaining and they only have about 10% of their goal: https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/w704/beating-cancer-o...

Original post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7390638

Tell HN: Jonathan Dale's Cancer Fundraiser isn't Doing Well & Time's Running Out

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