Mathbreakers: Explore mathematics in a 3D game world

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mathbreakers/mathbreakers-a-3-d-math-exploration-game

by morganq • 12 years ago

57 29 12 years ago

Detrus• 12 years ago

I can remember disliking 1998 2D Mac math games quite a bit. From what I can remember you would solve one little arithmetic problem after another and there would be some fun graphics around that. And they were exactly as boring as doing hundreds of little arithmetic problems.

I wonder if this game is actually interesting or they found a few happy kids for the video.

doorhammer• 12 years ago

Reminded me of this penny-arcade: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/02/21

I know I got tricked into doing math when I started playing ccg's and pen and paper rpg's when I was really young. I didn't learn anything crazy, but it seems like my desire to crunch numbers and learn statistics was always min-max gaming driven

ccvannorman4• 12 years ago

Hi, Charlie here, co-founder of Mathbreakers (not the OP tho). This game really is different; there are no worksheet style problems (NumberMunchers et al.)

Our whole idea is to treat math and numbers like toys that fit together, so you can experiment and play with numeracy and interesting calculators.

The goal is twofold: Change kids' mindsets towards math to make it more fun, and to help them understand emergent properties of numbers (like you can use any factor of a number to add up to that number in quick succession)

This is just the first step towards that, and it's aimed at elementary students. Soon we hope to be making 3D graphs with enemies on them that you have to "graph" out of your way (and other cool game-y applications)

codewiz• 12 years ago

That's not math. It's calculation, a process that computers can carry on without actually thinking.

DoubleMath• 12 years ago

Yeah get those kids learning category theory!

ccvannorman4• 12 years ago

Indeed! One of our supporters recommended using "zero" to kill addition monsters, and "1" to kill multiplication monsters, representing the different identities of fundamental operations. We don't have any "multiplication monsters" -- yet!

sitkack3• 12 years ago

This could be so much more. 3D TPS reports.

jonnybgood• 12 years ago

The early Math Blaster series that I played as a kid in the 90's was amazing to me. Just thinking about those games gives me nostalgia. IIRC, there was an actual storyline and the math mini-games were absolute fun. Thinking about it now, it felt like I wasn't even doing math, but just playing a typical fun game.

Probably wouldn't work these days, though. Before, you had the coolness of just being on a computer and didn't care much about 3D graphics.

ccvannorman4• 12 years ago

The Island of Dr. Brain was a lot like that for me. Although we've heard tons of comments from kids like, "I loved this game even though I knew I was doing math the whole time". :-]

-Charlie, co-founder

choffstein2• 12 years ago

My sister just released a game early access on Steam[1] called "The Counting Kingdom"[2]. It targets the U.S. core math curriculum for 6-8 year olds.

The idea is that by embedding mathematics into the core mechanics of the gameplay – instead of having it simply be a hurdle players have to get by before they get to further gaming (e.g. a popup quiz) – will allow players to consistently reinforce, grow, and retain their learning without necessarily consciously thinking about learning. It's learning through play.

I think the notion has legs, but I think it will really take a strong effort between game developers and educators alike.

[1] http://store.steampowered.com/app/302750/ [2] http://www.countingkingdomgame.com/

viviantan2• 12 years ago

Hi choffstein, I'm also one of the Mathbreakers founders.

Counting Kingdom looks awesome -- thanks for sharing! We definitely share the same philosophy about learning through games. Popup worksheets != gameplay!

We'd love to chat and nerd out with you and your sister. How do we reach you?

Cheers! Vivian

choffstein2• 12 years ago

You can grab her by e-mail: hello@littleworldsinteractive.com or twitter: @LittleWorldsInt

cheald• 12 years ago

Thanks for the link! It looks really well done - I just bought it and can't wait to see how my son likes it tomorrow. :)

To the Mathbreakers folks: Having a Steam presence is a really good way to facilitate impulse purchases, I'm just sayin'...

ppog• 12 years ago

I passed the "The Counting Kingdom" and "Mathbreakers" links on to a friend for her children (aged 7 and 9). Not only were they enthusiastic about what they saw, but they decided then and there to create their own "monster maths game" for show and tell. There is no better way to learn than to teach, and if this new breed of educational games not only motivates children to exercise skills, but also engages their creativity to create their own learning tools, that would be an astounding success.

rdtsc2• 12 years ago

(Student, from the promo video) -- "This should be our homework".

What a good idea! At least for some part of the homework.

I remember we had our course back when I was in 7th through 9th grades. It used to be called "Informatics" (this was in a ex-Soviet Block country).

First we used these strange MSX, Z80 based machines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX), then donated used IBM PC machines running DOS, Norton Commander and all. And we did some "boring" stuff like learned to copy files with NC. Did some spreadsheets, but the best part was we got to play games for grades. Sokoban (including a strange MSX clone of it). Then Lemmings. Then others. They would usually be logic games. That was really invaluable and kind of maintained my interest in computers.

sitkack3• 12 years ago

You were most likely an outlier. This video game should not be homework. Inmates running the asylum.

rdtsc2• 12 years ago

But ok why shouldn't video games be homework? Isn't regular homework a game? "Fill this spreadsheet with answers" X*5=15... etc. Solve this equation... That is very much a game. You get a score in the end -- a grade. And hopefully you learned something. The "learned and internalized something" part might be accomplished better with a video game.

The problem was that for kids at that point, who haven't seen or experience computers, showing that you can copy an abstract thing like a file from one window of NC to another was just very boring. It would have accomplished the task of forcing us to repeat and memorize the step enough to pass the final exam but it wouldn't have left with with an interest in computers.

Seeing a game and thinking logically how you would beat Sokoban. Teaches some planning, problem solving on one level, but it also shows of what computers can do -- play music, display graphics, hold the maze in memory presumably or on disk, keep score.

lxpk• 12 years ago

This game is awesome. Backed and looking forward to wearing the shirt!

thetwiceler• 12 years ago

I don't think this is a great idea, for several reasons:

Arithmetic is a very small part of mathematics, and perhaps the least important. But even as far as arithmetic goes, I don't see this game giving children a good "number sense". Why are different numbers the same size? If we don't relate the abstract concept of numbers to counts or sizes, then arithmetic is just meaningless manipulation of symbols.

Worse, the game doesn't seem open-ended. Children need not figure the answer out themselves, because they can just try an action and see what happens. I can see children just trying different actions over and over until they finally perform the winning combination. And I can also imagine the possibility of children thinking that they understand a subject when they really don't (for example, not being able to generalize beyond what they've seen in the game).

On a much smaller note, I hope the game has more to it than "when the result is zero, things disappear." For multiplication and division, doesn't it make more sense for that to be 1?

I don't see a video game like this helping kids to learn math and to learn to enjoy math. The children like the game because most video games (such as Mathbreakers, I'd say) are stimulating. What kid doesn't love video games?

So I've been quite a curmudgeon. What do I think kids should do to learn math in a fun way? I totally agree that games are a great idea. But I think a game such as the ruler/compass construction game [1] (featured on HN before) is a much better game. The ruler/compass construction game allows you to interact with the mathematics in a much more open-ended way than Mathbreakers. It emphasizes the importance of thinking logically, rather than simply manipulating symbols. Unlike Mathbreakers, which takes a complex system of base-10 arithmetic and adds to it even more complex game mechanics, the geometry game has extremely simple mechanics. You can let children simply play and come up with their own shapes, or they can try to make certain specific shapes (the link has several challenges). And the geometry game is deep! With these simple mechanics, we can encode some of the most interesting and challenging problems. For example, whether someone can construct a 17-gon [2] (and if so, how to do so) was only answered by Gauss (in the affirmative) in 1796. (Of course, that's not a puzzle we'd give to children! But how about a hexagon?)

So really, the geometry game is one that should be appropriate and challenging for people of all ages and math backgrounds! And it doesn't need to "dress up" the math with auxiliary puzzles and cartoon characters and 3D worlds. The math is already interesting as it is.

And finally, from Lockhart's Lament [3]:

  Simplicio: Then what *should* we do with young children in math class?

  Salviati: Play games! Teach them Chess and Go, Hex and 
  Backgammon, Sprouts and Nim, whatever. Make up a game. Do 
  puzzles. Expose them to situations where deductive reasoning
  is necessary. Don’t worry about notation and technique, help
  them to become active and creative mathematical thinkers.

[1] http://sciencevsmagic.net/geo/ [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptadecagon [3] http://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.p...

ccvannorman4• 12 years ago

You make a good argument. As a co-founder, my original vision was to make a 3-D math playground, pure and simple; to visualize math concepts on multiple levels working together, because I know there is a lot of interplay between things like algebra, multiplication, primes, geometry, and set theory. But as a non-genius it's often difficult for me to visualize it.

The best part about working on Mathbreakers for me has been that I HAVE seen emergent properties. Once, Pascal's triangle appeared because of a repetitive action you could take with our built-in mechanics, an (a+b) multiplication gate. It was amazing!

However, we steered towards a narrower and flashier product to stay alive as an educational games company. Your statement "The math is already interesting as it is" may be true for some, but convincing an 8 year old that it's as interesting as Minecraft is not an easy feat.

Re "open ended": making a 3D open ended world that makes sense and doesn't break is HARD. We're definitely headed there, but it's going to be a journey.

It sounds like you have a similar passion for math as us. I'd love to chat sometime; maybe you can help us see a clearer path to a better game. :-]

charlie@mathbreakers.com

natural2192• 12 years ago

You are being very nitpicky. There are a lot of stages to math development and learning. Mathbreakers is targeting one specific step. Your words imply that you believe this game should solve all of the problems of math education. It can't and it won't.

The point is to build out the subconscious neural scaffolding required to have an intuitive understanding of how algebra works by simulating early math concepts in a 3D environment. They achieve this goal impressively well. In terms of giving children a good "number sense", this absolutely does a great job of demonstrating certain aspects, and I am convinced that repeated play will translate in to real math gains in early education. I would love to debate the nuances of how this scaffolding is achieved, but you seem more interested in making smart-sounding points than actually examining the problem and offerin constructive criticism for how to solve that problem.

natural2192• 12 years ago

Reading the comments, I can't help but feel people are being overly negative about this project. Math education is a huge, sprawling, decades-long endeavor. It involves so many disciplines and moving parts and areas of pedagogy. Math education for college graduates is an entirely different thing than establishing basic numerical concepts in early minds and teaching kids to be confident manipulating symbols using mathematical rules to achieve tangible goals. I think it's an incredibly fruitful idea to take these simple math concepts and put them in an immersive 3D environment, and this project hits the nail on the head in regards to how we get there.

There are two main obstacles to achieving learning: Engagement, and efficiency. A lot of efficient ways of teaching end up not being engaging, and a lot of engaging ways of teaching end up not being very efficient.

I strongly believe that math education of the future will be one to tie these together in an important way, and I think Mathbreakers is the best attempt I've seen so far to bridge that gap in a practical, accessible way for youngsters. They have derived all level design and concepts from working directly with teachers and playtesting on students in real classrooms. They have achieved tangible results so far, after only a year of work. I can't imagine where they will be one year from now.

Kudos to the Mathbreakers team, I think this is one of the coolest projects to come out of Kickstarter I've seen in a while.

stared3• 12 years ago

It reminds me A Game Of Numbers http://agameofnumbers.com/ (Ludum Dare turned into a release).

stared3• 12 years ago

Some time ago I collected a list of games, that are related to science/education, but at the same time - can be played for fun (so it's not "gamified exam preparation") https://hackpad.com/Science-based-games-J0X4MSberlM

Vaskivo• 12 years ago

That is a great list!

I think the "can be played for fun" is really important. One of the big problems with "edutainment" is that they focus too much in the educative focus and not enought in the entertainment value. Sure, it may have all the basic math operation, but is it fun? Does it engage the kid? If not, maybe fractions and division should be dropped and more focus should be placed in the mechanics.

On a related note, one of the most interesting ways to be educational in a game (and other media) is via Tangential Learning [1]. Does anyone know of any research related to it?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning#Tangential_learning

stared3• 12 years ago

I agree. It seems that often people deeply misunderstand games. It is not bonus points, achievements that make a game great.

Especially as playing (in general) is a way people and animal start learning the world (physical and social), by interactions, trials and errors. Wolf pubs are not getting awards in a hunt-training. They, well, play.

Man-made games are 'abstractions' of such things (much like sweets are 'abstractions' fruits).

Too bad that current education misses the fact that children have natural curiosity. And builds the whole system around forcing them to learn or (as with bad gamifications) tricking them into it.

Sometimes giving opportunity to learn but not forcing it is the best way to go, see e.g. http://www.economist.com/node/18741484.

Mathbreakers: Explore mathematics in a 3D game world

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