Ask HN: Do you have a Ph.D? Is it useful? Was it worth it?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7477918

by scrollaway • 12 years ago

15 12 12 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

As someone who dropped out of school very young and moved to three different countries in the years that followed, I've always wondered about those who would dedicate a huge part of their life for something like a PhD.

I believe the HN crowd is one of the rare occasions I'll get to ask this question and potentially receive several answers; so if you have a PhD (or similar), or if you gave up halfway through for whatever reason, I'd like to hear your story and where it has led you, how it has changed your life.

I cannot picture my life in a universe where I didn't drop out. I feel ten years older than I am, and more often than not I am treated as such professionally due to having more experience than most people in my age group. But having never experienced the other side of the fence, I could just be delusional. So please, share your story.

cup• 12 years ago

I have a PhD in Pharmaceutical Science / Biomedicine.

Its easy to confuse the value a PhD holds and there is a large amount of misinformation around the internet which doesn't help. The following are my opinions and experiences and shouldn't be viewed as an authority. Different PhDs, different specialties and different universities will result in different experiences and outcomes.

A PhD is simply a ticket that gives its holder an opportunity to move into fields (academia typically) that are not available to the general public. Some industries value PhDs higher than others. You'll never get anywhere in the medical industry without appropriate qualifications whereas in the IT industry experience can often hold more weight than certificates.

People will also claim that a PhD gives you the opportunity to concentrate your entire focus on one particular topic for an extended period of time with great freedom. Sadly this isn't always the case. The pressures to publish, whether from yourself or from your supervisors who are relying on you to assist their careers, often means the 'independence' of a PhD becomes the 'dependence' on completing your supervisors work.

That being said, completing a PhD gives you the confidence to assert yourself as an expert in a particular field and requires you to have a great depth of understanding in a very niche topic. Often the greatest reward of a PhD is knowing you've expanded humanities understanding of a particular topic by a tiny amount, and in doing so have contributed to the great growing expanse of knowledge.

I was told at the start of my PhD that if i didn't love research I would never finish. I don't love research. I hate the politics, the failures, the bureaucracy, the poor funding and incessant grant applications and the terrible working conditions and hours. However, I love discovery and probing the unknown. Anyone can do a PhD in my opinion but I don't think everyone should and while I enjoyed my experience I wouldn't repeat it.

Again though, my experience would probably be far removed from someone who did a PhD in computer science or history.

dalek2point3• 12 years ago

do a PhD if you want to be an academic, do highly specific research on one topic, teach students, give up money for freedom and intellectually challenging environment. if you want to do anything else, really, there are probably easier ways to get there.

xSwag• 12 years ago

Counterpoint: Most quant jobs require a Phd in a STEM subject.

sjg0072• 12 years ago

and bank money!

bertil• 12 years ago

I started a PhD, but that wasn’t a hard choice for me: everyone (male) in my family’s recorded history (that’s up to the Reformation) has had at least one, I graduated in Statistics meaning half the job was done -- and I had an interest in applied science, meaning financing was doable, and I would go though it protected by the guarantee that I wasn’t eyeing for that one single position every one of the fifteen candidate was hoping to get.

It was great in amazing ways, and hard as hell: Great because I could spend a week reading someone’s detailed complete work (yay!) and literally say: There is one footnote in that paper that no-one read that I think is bullsh-t; the only copy of the book referenced in in another country, and they won’t send a scan; can I go there and check? I talked to Nobel laureates, and got my ideas crushed beyond recognition… That was fun.

The bad part was… I was fairly fragile psychologically before (six of my close friends committed suicide in the years prior, I had a couple of severe depression episodes prior) That was rough -- like a sea can be rough. A PhD is not an intellectual challenge: doing something no one has done before means that even if you are dumb as a bell, you are going to move the needle forward. Actually most PhDs that I’ve seen were basically applying an existing method to a very similar problem, or marginally improving it. A PhD is a crash test of your personal fortitude. You will cry, and feel lonely, and consider destroying it all (be it suicide, drugs or moving to Peru and herd goats); you will do that again, and I haven’t seen anyone defend unless they were tired of that, not anything related to their research.

I didn’t finish it (weird circumstances in the definition of Economics and a topic that evolved a lot, turning an intellectual curiosity into something so controversial that the last e-mail I received about getting relevant data read: ”Do not try that. You will end in jail.”) but what I’ve learnt is priceless. It was a daily riot, but one that no-one could really ever understand. Finding an emotional connexion was… wild every time. Conferences are a very out-of-body experience because you meet people with the same sex-life as yours (none, because your significant other both works too much, like you, lives too far, like you, and has emotions you don't relate to either). Also, they kind of get what you do, which is almost weird, and almost dirty, but not well enough for you to actually admire their comments, but then you make your own comments, and you realise how out of touch you both are with each other, and… it’s an odd connection. Think Lost in Translation, or actually most Wes Anderson’s movies.

Actually making a PhD is fairly simple. The needed contents are fairly simple -- it’s pretty much asking: is this true, finding a way to check it; making two related side-checks… and you are done. But reaching that can be surprisingly complicated, and therapeutic, and a shockingly bumpy ride.

My experience was a bit les typical because I’ve helped several dozen people go through it: being a one of the few statistician in the lab (and dating a medical student) meant I helped colleagues (and her friends). Plus I know how to use LaTeX quite well; it’s the software to type the damn thing; because Microsoft Word forfeits years before you are done. Yeah, because research is pretty much a parallel computing experience. I’ve been embedded in most PhD projects I’ve came across: people freak out a lot. They don’t know how to ask for help, and the impostor syndrome reaches somatic levels.

I’ve learnt to admire unconditionally some of the young assistants (the person helping you: imagine cynic seniors squared), their boundless dedication, their talent, their ability to repeatedly, mercilessly, shamelessly unravel, and destroy and rebuild someone by asking “And… So what?” only twice.

I’ve witnessed what ‘very senior academic’ means: politely listening; a pause of respectful and thoughtful silence when you are done; one question, one genuine, simple, almost-too-obvious-once-you-hear-it question. And three years of your life just exploded. Not sure if you are from a generation that spent their childhood watching the anime ‘Ken the Survivor’, but the guy Ken does karate, and he barely touches someone on seven spots, and nothing happens, but then they explode? Same thing, but with just one touch.

- “I’m not sure if I understand the role of repeated interactions in your model.” Hesitation… Boom. Three papers, four years of sweat… all to be entirely re-done.

- “Is your proposed scheme corruption-proof?” Kapooch.

It’s glorious, and necessary, and less painful if you apply large doses of alcohol to survive the blow.

There are things you can only learn with a PhD. I usually classify understanding and tuition in a simple way (self-education isn’t formalised, so it's hard to fit but most examples match, time-wise):

* vocational studies tell you how to apply one set of tool;

* Master’s tell you how to choose the proper tool;

* PhD lets you invent your own tools.

I works for medicine, Arts and a couple of other areas.

It does make being told what to do suck a lot, lot more, though.

CyberFonic3• 12 years ago

Great story! Thanks for sharing.

Alcohol is the lesser of the available evils. My PhD has driven my significant other and myself to regular drinking. The only way to numb the pain of bashing your head against a brick wall for 8+ hours at a time. Lucky for her, she works in the "Real World" (TM), but listening to my woes is enough to reach for the vodka.

jgamman• 12 years ago

got mine in chemistry in the mid-90s at an Australian university. i got it because i wanted to be a 'scientist' and that was how you got started - no-one in my family knew @#$#@ about university. i liked being in the lab and being part of 'science' as an endevour. i got ground down by the post-doc cycle and it's incredibly hard on your significant others as you tend to move city/country chasing the full-time gig. eventually i got tired of that and moved on to other things. upside: when you say you don't understand what someone is saying, the person tends to assume they are not being clear, not that you can't keep up - this can be a super-power in some group dynamics. downside: it takes a long time and you're poor with little hope of recovering those 'losses' - having said that, the UK/Aus/NZ system is that it is typical that you finish in 3 years and there's a scholarship somewhere so you aren't going into a lot of debt - lot's of people end up in their late 20s with little to show for it except some blurry memories and photos of thigns they did. i'm the same except i get to call myself Dr if i care to - i would not be relaxed if i had a 7-figure debt to repay or i was in my early/mid-30s when i graduated. the only thing i would pass on to someone young is: if you want to do one do it, but don't go into (outrageous) debt and don't let it go on past your mid-20s and if that means not going to Stanford/MIT/etc then you might need to think about that. personally, i think a career in science is like a career in music or sports - nice work if you can get it but it's more of a crap shoot than most people will admit.

CyberFonic3• 12 years ago

Are you still in academia or have you moved to "more interesting" area?

jackgolding• 12 years ago

LinkedIn stalking says no :-)

sjg0072• 12 years ago

I think an MD/PhD is the best option. Or become a quant. Also only go to a top tier school (MIT/Harvard etc.. ) if you want to be an academic. Everything else is just ridiculous.

CyberFonic3• 12 years ago

I'm in the dreaded writing up phase of my PhD. After 5 years, I have too much invested to chuck it in. But ... if I had known that it is "an apprenticeship" to be an academic and that being an academic means writing papers, articles and grant applications to try to get published so that you can "win" a grant to write more papers, articles and grant applications. The success rate is at best 20% so in effect get heaps more rejections than wins.

The biggest problem (for me) is that the supervisors and other academics are successful at the above game, so they cannot understand that somebody could find it difficult and unimpressive.

AND academics are expected to teach, mark papers, exams, serve on a myriad of committees. Typically they work 70+ hours a week, for what in most cases is barely a middle manager's (who probably dropped out of school) salary.

I don't agree about your characterisation of "huge part of your life". I've wasted more time in jobs that eventually led to my resignation after I finished university. It's all part of your life's journey. Each to his own.

I know many people who dropped out of school young. In general, they are better travelled, with more experiences and useful knowledge than those who have slogged through the one-track of academia. So whilst you might wonder about the other side of the fence. Do not for a moment think that you've made a bad choice. Just DIFFERENT !

samfisher83• 12 years ago

Just to get into a top tier PHD programs means you were pretty smart. Admission rates for even for 2nd tier schools are quite low.

Ask HN: Do you have a Ph.D? Is it useful? Was it worth it?

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